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DBS low 2-C Revisions

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Zamasu_Chan

Zamasu_Chan

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Anilaza. He was strong enough overpower the five strongest guys in U7 including Blue Goku. Blue Goku was low 2-C at the time because right after Anilaza's defeat, he was casually clashing with a suppressed Jiren. There are arguments that Goku wasn't low 2-C at the time but that makes no sense. Him holding back against Anilaza is head canon, especially considering Goku had help, it wouldn’t make sense. Goku getting stronger after the fight is also head canon as he gets his gigantic amps from UI sessions. His fight with Jiren literally happened right after Anilaza. Android 17 one shotting Anilaza doesn't make it an outlier for the following reasons.

Android 17 may be 3-A physically but he has better feats with his shields. Not only did he one shot Anilaza with his shield but he was able to use them to protect himself against GoD Toppo. It even took GoD Toppo multiple attacks for the shield to break. Jiren and Toppo were the only ones who were able break the shields. 17's shields should definitely be low 2-C.
As a side note his self destruction should be low 2-C as well. It stopped an attack from Jiren, as shown here.
 
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Is this a Low 2-C Vegito Blue thread?


Anyways, I agree on at least possibly Low 2-C Hit considering he has enough evidence to get it imo.

17 is a bit iffy, but his durability could get the pass.

Anilaza I think I can agree with this one, still a little doubtful on it

Base Goku, hell no, I don't quite think Jiren was exerting Low 2-C amounts of power considering how weakened he was and even if he was this would be an outlier. Unless we wanna say Post MUI Base Goku is >>>> Post 2nd UI SSB Goku who is also > 1st UI Goku.

What happened to the Low 2-C Spirit Bomb tho?
 
sooooo

Weakened Jiren gets a burst of power which can overpower both Golden Frieza and Android 17.

Yet, Base Frieza who's 3-A (along with Base Goku tho) can keep up with him afterwards???? Base Frieza who never showed any feat of being above 17 until his Golden Form? Frieza has never shown to be Breaking his limits unlike Goku, who seconds earlier couldn't even move. Mind you.

Jiren's aura and character expressions don't say much actually, Ep 109 Spirit Bomb was one of the most impressive things in the ToP considering what it did but far stronger characters or attacks failed to generate as much surprise as the SB did.

The whole episode was an outlier fiesta, you can't actually believe an heavily weakened Base Goku surpassed both his previous SSB and ALSO his first UIS.

This fight was: an Unknown (Jiren) against an Unknown (post UI Base Goku) and two 3-As (Frieza and 17). I don't know how we can say this is Low 2-C tbh.

Though basing in Goku's power ups and limit breaking shenamigans, and since people generally think SSB Goku in DBSB to be scale above his Blue Kaioken x20 self from the ToP, it may be possible for his DBSB SSG to scale somewhat close to Post 2nd UI SSB.

The scale would look like this:

SSB Goku (DBSB) > ToP SSBKKx20 (x20) > Post 2nd UI SSB > UIO1 Goku> Infinite Zamasu ~ Baseline.

According to site, SSG is 40 times weaker than Blue. If DBSB SSB is at least equal to ToP SSBKKx20, then DBSB SSG Goku would only be 2 times weaker than Post 2nd UI SSB Goku. Meaning he'll be comparable to his 1st UI or at the VERY LEAST, to Infinite Zamasu.

This can push SSG Goku in the Movie to Low 2-C if Base is rejected.
 
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Omegas03 said:
sooooo

Weakened Jiren gets a burst of power which can overpower both Golden Frieza and Android 17.

Yet, Base Frieza who's 3-A (along with Base Goku tho) can keep up with him afterwards???? Base Frieza who never showed any feat of being above 17 until his Golden Form? Frieza has never shown to be Breaking his limits unlike Goku, who seconds earlier couldn't even move. Mind you.
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I mean you can claim it’s an outlier for Frieza but you can’t deny Broly movie FF Frieza scales to or even above base Goku for being stronger than him.
Omegas03 said:
Jiren's aura and character expressions don't say much actually, Ep 109 Spirit Bomb was one of the most impressive things in the ToP considering what it did but far stronger characters or attacks failed to generate as much surprise as the SB did.
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Jiren has 3 auras he used and each indicate how much power he’s using. However this is far from the main point.
Omegas03 said:
The whole episode was an outlier fiesta, you can't actually believe an heavily weakened Base Goku surpassed both his previous SSB and ALSO his first UIS.
Click to expand...
Saying something is false because it sounds ridiculous is Argument from incredulity: This is when someone states that since there is insufficient evidence of something, it cannot possibly be true.
Besides, Goku’s been doing that the whole tournament. It would make sense for MUI to give him an even bigger boost.
Omegas03 said:
This fight was: an Unknown (Jiren) against an Unknown (post UI Base Goku) and two 3-As (Frieza and 17). I don't know how we can say this is Low 2-C tbh.
Click to expand...
That’s because Android 17’s shields and self destruct are low 2-C. Jiren was able to survive the self destruct and his aura was breaking the shield. Not to mention base Goku made 17’s shield stronger so base Goku >= 17’s shield.
Omegas03 said:
Though basing in Goku's power ups and limit breaking shenamigans, and since people generally think SSB Goku in DBSB to be scale above his Blue Kaioken x20 self from the ToP, it may be possible for his DBSB SSG to scale somewhat close to Post 2nd UI SSB.

The scale would look like this:

SSB Goku (DBSB) > ToP SSBKKx20 (x20) > Post 2nd UI SSB > UIO1 Goku> Infinite Zamasu ~ Baseline.

According to site, SSG is 40 times weaker than Blue. If DBSB SSB is at least equal to ToP SSBKKx20, then DBSB SSG Goku would only be 2 times weaker than Post 2nd UI SSB Goku. Meaning he'll be comparable to his 1st UI or at the VERY LEAST, to Infinite Zamasu.

This can push SSG Goku in the Movie to Low 2-C if Base is rejected.
Click to expand...
Goku’s first power up was huge. He was getting stomped by Legendary Kale in SSB but was able fight her LSSJ2 state equally in SSJ2 after he got UIS. His base was also > post zenkai SSJ2 Caulifla.
 
Saying Base Goku post UIO1 is stronger than SSJ2 Caulifla is literally missing all the context on that fight. Goku was relying in skill alone and some moments after Goku had to use SSJ2 to fight her.

Anyways, Berserker Kale being above pre UIO SSB Goku is pretty debatable since IIRC SSB Goku didn't go FP until Ep 109.

I'll accept UIO2 gave an very big zenkai boost to Goku but the first didn't seem much like so.

I insist, I don't see much evidence of weak Jiren being Low 2-C. My argument of Final Form Frieza doing far better than his Golden form formerly and also 17 kinda support this. the Episode was just an outlier.

Not to mention everyone was weakened during that fight.

And to add something this would kind of mess up the scaling.

We'll have Jiren ~ Broly > SSG Gogeta > SSJ3 > 2 > 1 > Base > SSB Goku DBSB > SSG > SSJ3 > 2 > 1 > Base > SSBE from the ToP, GoD Toppo, SSJ2 Kefla, SSBKKx20 > literally everyone else.
 
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Omegas03 said:
Saying Base Goku post UIO1 is stronger than SSJ2 Caulifla is literally missing all the context on that fight. Goku was relying in skill alone and some moments after Goku had to use SSJ2 to fight her.
Click to expand...
Feats >> statements my guy. Goku literally caught her punch. If she was 100x stronger than him he would’ve gotten one shot. He was also holding back when using SSJ2 because the mere aura was enough for Caulifla to question why Goku was so strong. She was also growing stronger throughout the fight.
Omegas03 said:
Anyways, Berserker Kale being above pre UIO SSB Goku is pretty debatable since IIRC SSB Goku didn't go FP until Ep 109.
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That’s her only feat at that point. Even Jiren had to put her down.
 
Edited the previous comment.

Anyways, I"ll have to add:

now the problem is that we would be saying SSJ2 Caulifla grew ~100x stronger in an Instant from just fighting Base Goku.

Second, stomping an possibly Suppressed SSB Goku doesn't make her above FP SSB

Especially considering how Jiren just one shotted her and for example Goku in Ep 109 and Vegeta as SSB in Ep 122 were able to last at least a while.
 
Omegas03 said:
Edited the previous comment.

Anyways, I"ll have to add:

now the problem is that we would be saying SSJ2 Caulifla grew ~100x stronger in an Instant from just fighting Base Goku.
Click to expand...
Goku was initially overpowering her and didn’t go all out until kale joined.
Omegas03 said:
Second, stomping an possibly Suppressed SSB Goku doesn't make her above FP SSB

Especially considering how Jiren just one shotted her and for example Goku in Ep 109 and Vegeta as SSB in Ep 122 were able to last at least a while.
Click to expand...
Legendary Kale was definitely stronger than SSJ2 Goku. Legendary Kale <<< LSSJ2 Kale = SSJ2 Goku post UIS1 so he still got a significant amp.
 
tho LSSJ2/Thin Green Haired Kale was stomping SSJ2 Goku and was able to keep up with SSG? The one who kept up with SSJ2 Goku was regular SSJ.
 
I agree with most of this, and I think that hit should have Low 2-C durability at bare minumum. Bse Goku is an absolute no though.
 
Hold on, didn't Android 17 actually damage Jiren during their between him, SSBX20 Goku and Evolution Vegeta vs Jiren?
 
Omegas03 said:
tho LSSJ2/Thin Green Haired Kale was stomping SSJ2 Goku and was able to keep up with SSG? The one who kept up with SSJ2 Goku was regular SSJ.
Click to expand...

thumb-1920-878637.png

Kale was overpowered by SSG Goku.
 
And I could've sworn he took hits from Jiren meant for Goku and Vegeta. So why doesn't he scale to those versions or at least Downscale from them?
 
Zamasu_Chan said:
It’s because Toppo is physically stronger than 17.
Click to expand...
Isn't Toppo also Low 2-C? You could just argue that 17 has some small amount of Reactive Power Level like Raiden from Metal Gear Rising Revengeance does where he went from being stomped to stomping his opponent in the same fight or he has Accelerated Development like Classic Doomguy is getting from fighting his enemies and eventually getting stronger than them over time through multiple fights.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
Isn't Toppo also Low 2-C? You could just argue that 17 has some small amount of Reactive Power Level like Raiden from Metal Gear Rising Revengeance does where he went from being stomped to stomping his opponent in the same fight or he has Accelerated Development like Classic Doomguy is getting from fighting his enemies and eventually getting stronger than them over time through multiple fights.
Click to expand...
@Zamasu_Chan
 
Hit and Anilaza have sufficient evidence to back up Low 2-C IMO - having fought people who were clearly Low 2-C. Android 17 should also be Low 2-C, at least as far as his shields are concerned and more importantly, if Anilaza is upgraded - that itself would strengthen the evidence for Android 17 as well because he is the one who landed the finishing blow in that fight
 
Was Jiren really beaten and weakened by Ultra Instinct Goku to the point he dropped from UI Goku level to below Episode 109-110 Jiren level?
 
Base Goku being universal+ I guess would be fair since there's no numerical division that would account for a drop in dimensional tier (no Super Saiyan form is an infinite, inaccessible or immeasurable amp to stats).
However, scaling him to Jiren is really stupid. For one, Goku did like no damage to a really weakened and exhausted Jiren even with 17 and Frieza helping him, 17 having been injured and weakened through self destructs and various injuries against stronger foes and Frieza not being able to get stronger during combat. Yes, he has infinite energy (stamina) but androids do weaken as shown with 17's fight with Piccolo, Cell weakening against Goku, etc. Goku was base Frieza level before the tournament and he was during this fight, so this Goku is not stronger here than he was when he entered the tournament (should be much weaker since him and Frieza are dying on their feet)
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
Isn't Toppo also Low 2-C? You could just argue that 17 has some small amount of Reactive Power Level like Raiden from Metal Gear Rising Revengeance does where he went from being stomped to stomping his opponent in the same fight or he has Accelerated Development like Classic Doomguy is getting from fighting his enemies and eventually getting stronger than them over time through multiple fights.
Click to expand...
In Response to 17 damaging Jiren in his fight with 17, SSBX20 Goku and Blue Evolution Vegeta.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
Disagree with Low 2-C base. The scaling is getting ridiculous.
Click to expand...
Argument from incredulity: This is similar to the argument from ignorance, except it is based on the fact that the person in question cannot personally believe something.
Make a legit argument or leave. I don’t want any hostility.
 
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