Android 17 DBS, Low 2-C upgrade.

[AKM sama]

Him getting stronger actually does make sense, we know that saiyans get stronger whilst fighting, and we know goku could've gotten stronger from the post ui zenkai. So it is logically possible. The only arguments i could really see against this would be arguing from incredulity.

Saiyans getting stronger has nothing to do with 17.

Your training results scale from the quality of your opponent. He reached 3A from fighting people who have a power level of like 5 ?!

And it took a hell of a lot years of him training by himself and fighting poachers, not 48 minutes. Him getting stronger in a time skip is believable. Him getting so much stronger in 48 minutes is not, especially when those 48 minutes are ripe with inconsistencies of anybody being able to fight anybody to look cooler.

Deeming 17's feats as inconsistencies is contradictory as we would have to mark a plethora of feats as outliers, aswell as ignoring multiple statements from the source-material that outright goes against the idea of his feats being inconsistent.

His profile looks pretty consistent to me. He has been very consistently been portrayed as being 3-A.

17 could inflict a scar on Jiren that neither Low 2-C SSB Goku and Low 2-C SSBE Vegeta were capable of doing, he outright had more applicable feats than both in the Jiren fight.

That can be easily chalked up Jiren not using his full strength at that point since he was not expecting it. It happens a lot in DB.

Also, how does:

• Taking hits from Jiren
• Damaging Jiren
• Clashing fists with Jiren
• Taking hits from Low 2-C Toppo
• Performing comparably to Low 2-C Vegeta and Low 2-C Goku against Jiren

If we take every single instance of things such like this, we'd have SSG Goku and SSJ Vegeta on the same level due to fighting Anilaza together. Ignoring a handful of scenes from 17 avoids the much bigger and worse outcome of creating more inconsistencies with Low 2-C Base Goku, which is a definite no.

"Toshitaka later went on to state that from his point of view, Android 17 was equal to Gohan in strength and both were stronger than Frost and Piccolo."

Who is Toshitaka? And that's his point of view. Android 17 and Gohan are around the same ballpark even if 17 is a bit stronger due to having better feats. That doesn't mean RPL.

Yeah, forgot that Goku outright states all of them (including the NON-saiyans Frieza and A17) have all surpassed their limits during the tournament,

Which doesn't mean surpassing their previous max AP. It just means they are going above and beyond in terms of stamina and their willingness to keep fighting until the end. This exact reasoning was mentioned, debated, and thoroughly rejected earlier.

Seriously, I am not seeing any new points, so I am unsure why we should change a decision made by majority of the staff members keeping in mind the consistency of the show. And it's not like the decision was reached 4 years after the show had ended. The memories of the show were still fresh in everybody's mind, so there is hardly any room for error compared to right now. Are these all the points or is there anything new that has come up?

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Your training results scale from the quality of your opponent. He reached 3A from fighting people who have a power level of like 5 ?! It simply makes sense that he

He trained with Cell jrs in the island, it seems

 

[SirAlex09]

He trained with Cell jrs in the island, it seems

Manga only though.

Who is Toshitaka? And that's his point of view. Android 17 and Gohan are around the same ballpark even if 17 is a bit stronger due to having better feats. That doesn't mean RPL.

Episode writer from Toei. And they are certainly not in the same ballpark. One failed to any damage with his most powerful attack ( and this was after receiving huge zenkai boosts) while the other could give Toppo significant trouble in a beam struggle even without Frieza's help. He also did the most damage to Jiren apart from MUI Goku.

If we take every single instance of things such like this, we'd have SSG Goku and SSJ Vegeta on the same level due to fighting Anilaza together.

They could be , considering the fact that one was heavily fatigued after 2 limit breaking fights while the other one still had nearly all of his power and stamina.

 

[SirAlex09]

And it took a hell of a lot years of him training by himself and fighting poachers, not 48 minutes. Him getting stronger in a time skip is believable. Him getting so much stronger in 48 minutes is not, especially when those 48 minutes are ripe with inconsistencies of anybody being able to fight anybody to look cooler.

Think of it like this: What is more efficiant: Training for 5 years with 5 Kilogramms of weights or training for 2 months with 100 Kilogramms of weight.
I am pretty sure the latter will have the more significant muscle mass increase.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Which doesn't mean surpassing their previous max AP. It just means they are going above and beyond in terms of stamina and their willingness to keep fighting until the end. This exact reasoning was mentioned, debated, and thoroughly rejected earlier.

Can you show when exactly as well as point to the message that answered this exact arguments? If you can't, then your arguments doesn't hold whatsoever.
Besides, that's why we got feats. Goku statements supports all the feats that A17 definitely surpassed the AP he had earlier during the tournament (and to remind you, SSB Goku before the tournament is stated to be > A17), and meanwhile, A17 do feats against Jiren with the likes of SSBKK20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta, who both surpassed SSBKK20 Pre-UI Goku with SSB alone

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It's never stated 17 got stronger throughout the tournament; at best, he could have just been holding back the first encounter and never used his full power till near the end. But yeah, neither Goku nor Vegeta are Low 2-C and simply 3-A before the tournament and that's clearly shown by the number of times they got zenkais in which Goku and Vegeta went from being able to body certain opponents in base forms despite struggling in SSB forms beforehand. Goku being basically nothing even in SSB Kaioken but only matching his casual form in UIS but later being able to keep up in SSB form is also a note. And Golden Frieza doesn't become Tier 2 till after the tournament; he's arguably gotten stronger than Goku and Vegeta individually considering how long he lasted against SSJ Broly; a one whose long surpassed the ones who bodied Goku and Vegeta. But before that, he struggled against Dyspo and needed help from Gohan despite 17 being able to overpower Toppo singlehandedly.

Goku (With UI forms, and later SSB and beyond after multiple zenkais), Vegeta (With SSB Evolution), and 17 (With bomb and barrier at least) are the only U7 ones who have the right to be Low 2-C in ToP. Though this is arguing if 17 could be Low 2-C in general. Which I'm more neutral towards given AKM Sama's disagreements with everyone else's agreements.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

It's never stated 17 got stronger throughout the tournament; at best, he could have just been holding back the first encounter and never used his full power till near the end.

It was directly stated that A17 was < SSB Goku before the tournament. It was said Goku and Frieza were tied to be the two strongest before Goku got UI-Sign, so your argument is incorrect

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Author statements aren't really reliable in that regard; 17 being below Frieza and Gohan are both heavily contradicted from the in our face fight scenes. 17 > Base Toppo > Dyspo > Golden Frieza.

 

[Vietthai96]

he struggled against Dyspo and needed help from Gohan

He struggled against Dyspo due to the massive speed boost Dyspo gain when the guy use Super Highest Speed Mode, however, Dyspo failed to actually damage Frieza, Frieza just get cornered due to speed, and even Ultimate Gohan can easily block Dyspo punch, unless you want to say Gohan > Golden Frieza

 

[SirAlex09]

Author statements aren't really reliable in that regard; 17 being below Frieza and Gohan are both heavily contradicted from the in our face fight scenes. 17 > Base Toppo > Dyspo > Golden Frieza.

Dyspo wasn't stronger than Frieza. In fact he was severely below him. He was just massively faster than him and simply strong enough to knock him around without inflicting any damage. Due to the nature of the tournament all he had to was to push him out of the arena which he would have succeeded in if it hadn't been for Gohan.


Also Base Toppo was superior to Gohan and 17. 17 wasn't stronger than him initially and was getting stomped

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Author statements aren't really reliable in that regard; 17 being below Frieza and Gohan are both heavily contradicted from the in our face fight scenes. 17 > Base Toppo > Dyspo > Golden Frieza.

Dyspo was weaker than SSB Goku. Golden Frieza is definitely stronger. He only reason he couldn't touch him is because his technique made him immensly faster, requiring Gohan and Frieza to trap him, however, when you see Dyspo getting damaged by Frieza's cage, he takes a lot of damage, refuting your argument

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Gohan was also pummeling him and even managed to restrain him long enough for Frieza to ring them both out.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Gohan was also pummeling him and even managed to restrain him long enough for Frieza to ring them both out.

Yeah, the only thing they couldn't deal with is his speed, but in terms of strength even Gohan who was at best equal to pre-UI SSB Goku were above him

 

[AdNiBN002]

His profile looks pretty consistent to me. He has been very consistently been portrayed as being 3-A.

Outright ignoring feats that go against the portrayal of 3-A Android 17 does not make it consistent. Almost any character can be portrayed to be any level one wants by doing so.

That can be easily chalked up Jiren not using his full strength at that point since he was not expecting it. It happens a lot in DB.

As mentioned before, we saw Frieza similarly attempt an attack on an unexpected Jiren which did not amount to anything remotely close to 17's feat.

As such we cannot chalk up 17's to just Jiren being off-guard, as Frieza's feat should also have been potent with that logic, which it very much wasn't.

If we take every single instance of things such like this, we'd have SSG Goku and SSJ Vegeta on the same level due to fighting Anilaza together.

The extremely fatigued, Post-Kefla fight SSG Goku being even with SS Vegeta isn't particularly odd.
If anything that's consistent as we saw a nonchalant SSG Goku fight SS2 Caulifla and Kale.
Virtually none of the U7 fighters were using their max capacity regardless.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Think of it like this: What is more efficiant: Training for 5 years with 5 Kilogramms of weights or training for 2 months with 100 Kilogramms of weight.
I am pretty sure the latter will have the more significant muscle mass increase.

Although it’s a myth to consider the former not as effective as the latter.
I see your point.

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Honestly 17 should have this upgrade,

worst case scenario should be “At least Low 3-A, possibly Low 2-C (insert several low 2-c justifications here) but I’m in full support of just Low 2-C. There are enough feats to justify that.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Saiyans getting stronger has nothing to do with 17.

I wasn't talking about 17, i was talking about the fatigued base goku from episode 131 because you said it wouldn't make sense for 17 to scale there because it would make weakened base goku scale there. I'm just saying that version of goku wouldn't serve as a contradiction because he got stronger from fighting+ he has the post ui zenkai. Thats all, im currently neutral on the 17 scaling.

 

[SlendVeny]

Your training results scale from the quality of your opponent. He reached 3A from fighting people who have a power level of like 5 ?! It simply makes sense that he reaches low 2C by fighting low2c and 3A beings.

Actually, the average power level is 1. That farmer was at least 9-C

 

[AKM sama]

I wasn't talking about 17, i was talking about the fatigued base goku from episode 131 because you said it wouldn't make sense for 17 to scale there because it would make weakened base goku scale there. I'm just saying that version of goku wouldn't serve as a contradiction because he got stronger from fighting+ he has the post ui zenkai. Thats all, im currently neutral on the 17 scaling.

Which was already brought up and rejected in a staff thread. There is no new argument here. (Even I was on that thread and I wasn't even staff back then).

17 doesn't have reactive power level, neither does he have any zenkai or any such mechanism by which he can keep getting stronger in the middle of the fight. This non-existent power is being forcibly used as an excuse to somehow overshadow the inconsistencies of the ToP arc, which it is riddled with. So either he was Low 2-C and stronger than UIO1 and 2 Goku from the start which is a no as that basically breaks the plot of the story, or fatigued base Goku who couldn't go SSJ is Low 2-C which is also a no.

There is only one way Android 17 will become Low 2-C. Create a staff thread and convince most of the staff members with "new" arguments. Since the decision was reached after many threads and a staff thread, it can't be overturned like this. My apologies.