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Analytical prediction should have it’s own page

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Actually like

I've read the entire thread just now, how the hell is the consensus considered to be in favor of a new page?

Agree with Split: LordTracer, LephyrTheRevanchist, Celestial Pegasus

Disagree with Split: Qawsedf (Thinks Analytical Prediction could be a type-split on current page), Antvasima (Agrees with Prom's point that the two are functionally the same power), My sorry ass

Neutral: Armorchompy (Doesn't agree with Types, neutral on page splitting)

All of the agrees previously voted against the split and just sort of flip-flopped, but that's still a 50/50 tie in favor of not-splitting. If we account for rank, there are more votes against splitting than actually splitting.

The hell, guys
 
Very neat.

If it goes the other way I can write up a rewrite, Precog hs a sloppy page anyways
 
A page rewrite is well warranted, tbh a lot of our shit could use touching up.
 
I personally agree with Promestein and Bambu. Splitting the precognition page based solely on a technicality of the method used for predicting the future seems like a massive amount of unnecessary wiki-wide revision work for no payoff.

Also, Promestein is a former bureaucrat who can regain her position if she truly wants to and is willing to handle the responsibilities again. Her vote is valid here.

That said, if she simply wants to improve on the structure of our precognition page, I certainly trust her sense of judgement.
 
Antvasima said:
Splitting the precognition page based solely on a technicality of the method used for predicting the future seems like a massive amount of unnecessary wiki-wide revision work for no payoff.
Click to expand...
Then why was AnaPre merged with precog in the first place? Was that not also a decent chunk of site-wide work?

Ultimately, they are different abilities, with different mechanics, that have similar but still different outcomes. AnaPre is an actual ability that irl people can have to some extent, but as of yet there's no solid scientific proof that a person can have precognition. Boxers and similarly fast martial artists use even very slight tells to predict, sometimes extremely accurately, what their opponent will do next, but they can't fast-forward their senses 1 second into the future to say for certain that that is what their opponent will do. Seeing and predicting just are not the same, no matter how accurate the prediction is.
 
does the same thing
works by different mechanics
Click to expand...

As mentioned, we have pages that do that. Madness Manipulation refers to the result rather than the mechanics, listing different mechanics as different types. This isn't an argument to make it a new page.

It is my opinion that, ideally, we would have as few pages as possible for abilities while still encompassing all broad concepts of abilities. The less powers we have, the less people will become confused by the plethora of things to remember to potentially add to a page. Analytical Prediction is Precognition with extra steps. We don't need a different page when the two are functionally the same shit.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
As mentioned, we have pages that do that. Madness Manipulation refers to the result rather than the mechanics, listing different mechanics as different types. This isn't an argument to make it a new page.

It is my opinion that, ideally, we would have as few pages as possible for abilities while still encompassing all broad concepts of abilities. The less powers we have, the less people will become confused by the plethora of things to remember to potentially add to a page. Analytical Prediction is Precognition with extra steps. We don't need a different page when the two are functionally the same shit.
Click to expand...
You mention Madness Manipulation but I argue that Madness Manipulation has a even shakier fondation to stand on. You know, the ability functionally the same as Mind Manipulation, just way more limited in comparason? In fact, I'm pretty sure that potent Mind resistance of the right category (biological, metaphysical etc) allows you to resist Madness hax of the same category. You can't say the same for AnaPre vs Precog.
 
SheevShezarrine said:
Then why was AnaPre merged with precog in the first place? Was that not also a decent chunk of site-wide work?
Click to expand...
No, all I had to do was make a redirect; it was as close to effortless as anything could be. Analytical Prediction was added years into Precognition already being a thing. Adding it was only ever gonna be more work, not that I think that's a good argument against adding it. The fact that it's redundant is a bigger and better reason.

I also think Madness Manipulation has no reason to exist, so. Let's not bring up other shitty powers to justify another shitty split.
 
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As mentioned, I'm down with such a page rewrite. I'll take a good look when I'm off work but in concept, at least, you have my support.
 
TBH, I'm fine with it going either way. But that's gonna come off like I'm only neutral. You can consider me as voting for it becoming another ability

I'm basically in a position where I won't be offended regarding what the fate of this ability is, but for all intensive purposes, I'm on board with it getting its own page
 
I'd appreciate it if the people pushing for the change weighed in.
 
I have seen non-staff members post messages in this thread without getting reprimanded, so it seems to me that it's okay for me to provide my insight. I agree that precognition and analytical prediction should be differentiated, but it's important to acknowledge why they're regarded as the same in the first place, since the reason is more sensical than I've seen people in agreement with this thread express.

Although precognition is usually meant in a supernatural sense, it can be defined as "foreknowledge of an event". Knowing that an event will take place in the future doesn't necessarily have to be supernatural; most humans have some form of precognition. For example, if we know for a fact that someone's birthday is on a specific date, we will not be guessing when the anniversary will be when that date comes around every year, we will be foreknowing. There isn't an underlying supernatural meaning found in "pre" and "cognition" individually. Following along with what I have written so far, we can interpret that the (real life) ability to think of something before it happens is the baseline for precognition, and the supernatural versions are better and unreal versions. If a character is so smart that they have vast knowledge of psychology, human nature, and/or something like that, and they can analyze subtle movement to do "prediction" and reliably react to actions faster than their speed allows by itself, or reliably figure out a lot of correct information based on barely anything, the character isn't really only predicting, and is instead having such discerning perception that they can use the real life ability of precognition in a way that resembles the supernatural versions, functionally being the same ability on the surface. This matter is similar to how there are many methods of achieving flight, but they are listed together on the Flight page.

The reason analytical prediction should be separated from precognition is because them being combined results in a few important problems. There are small details that make it misleading, such as how "prediction" undervalues the ability as I explained in the previous paragraph. Anyone of average intelligence can do analytical prediction, but that doesn't mean they will have uncanny accuracy like fictional geniuses do. The word "precognition" has the connotation of being supernatural, especially since most definitions include the fact that this word is especially used in a supernatural context, meaning the logic of analytical prediction being combined with precognition is semantically flawed.

I think the best course of action is to rename "Analytical Prediction" to a more fitting term, so that it isn't a standard human ability and so it is more accurate to what the ability really is. I propose "Analytical Foreknowledge" or "Advanced Foreknowledge". Then, we should have it be listed in the Genius Intelligence page as a potential application, while mentioning that at its peak it can be functionally the same as Precognition. The second paragraph in the Precognition page should be changed to reflect the result of this thread.
 
Non-staff members have to have permission from a staff member to post on the Staff Discussion board. I'll leave your comment here for now, as it isn't harmful and is more than just a statement of agreement (or disagreement), but for future reference, ask permission first.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
Non-staff members have to have permission from a staff member to post on the Staff Discussion board. I'll leave your comment here for now, as it isn't harmful and is more than just a statement of agreement (or disagreement), but for future reference, ask permission first.
Click to expand...
Thanks for telling me. I'm sorry. I won't continue to post in this thread unless I get permission.
 
I am obviously personally fine with Promestein's suggested revision of our precognition page to divide it into sections for analytical prediction and divination varieties.
 
I would like to make Analytical Prediction more limited to showings at the peak of and beyond actual human applications of foreknowledge.
 
Okay. No problem. That seems fine to me.
 
Promestein said:
Here's a page rewrite for Precognition that splits it into two types and which does not treat Analytical Prediction as the sole subtype that needs to be specified. I think this is probably acceptable to both sides, yes? Two types, even if only one page, would address any concerns the pro-split side has and would do a lot to shore up confusion.

I'll probably split the examples into tabbers, maybe with all the old examples from the page split writeups.
Click to expand...
I'll be alright with it if the page isn't called Precognition but something that covers both. Prediction doesn't cover Precognition and vice versa. Although I haven't seen a proper rebuttal for Analytical Prediction from being it's own page. Prediction is not another way of saying Precognition or vice versa. This is the issue I have here.

Both of them are used to "tell" the future, but there is a difference in what they're doing. Both Lava and Fire attacks are used to burn/heat things but are not the same. Super Speed and Time Slow are basically identical in most cases, yet are vastly different. One is a speed amp and another slows down the flow of time.

Their end goal is the same, but they reach it differently. So that means end goal is irrelevant in this case, what matters is what they're doing to achieve it. I'm simply saying "in this case" since for other abilities the end goal is the only thing that matters. Such as Immortality and all of its types. Feel free to disagree with me on that, this is just my feelings towards the matter and there is no 100% correct answer. This is just what I/you think fits better in this situation.

Guessing the future by analyzing the past is not the same as knowing the actual future.

Knowing the actual future is not the same as guessing the future by analyzing the past.

So while both are used to gain "knowledge" of the future, their methods of doing so is completely different. I personally believe this is enough for different pages.

Although I'll admit that I don't know how difficult this would be to implement. So I don't mind the compromise. But having a page with "two types" and naming the page after one of the types is silly. Regardless, that is all I'll say on the matter.

If people prefer the compromise that's fine, as long as we aren't calling Prediction the same as Precognition.
 
I'm in the same camp as Lonkitt. I'd prefer it be it's own ability with it's own page, but with basically everyone with veto power being against it, it's unlikely to get its own page any time soon. And in that case, I side with TheRustyOne in renaming the page to something that better fits hybridizing the two
 
TheRustyOne said:
But having a page with "two types" and naming the page after one of the types is silly
Click to expand...
I'd have responded to the rest if you didn't say this. I clearly label the types under different names on that page, and for that exact reason. Plenty of people don't have an issue describing Analytical Prediction as Precognition; it's not the same as an example as inane as Super Speed versus Time Slow.
 
Many people being fine with considering those 2 the same doesn't make it right but I digress

If we are really adamant about keeping them on a single page (Like why, at that point you have just fused 2 entire pages into one) then I'm fine with Proms split page draft. I vehemently disagree with treating AnaPre as a subcategory of Precognition, so I dont agree with the second draft.
 
I'd rather we don't make some massive page format exception for something that many users have been able to understand just fine.
 
So has Promestein's suggestion here received sufficient staff support to apply?
 
Okay. I will do so. Tell me here when you are done please. 🙏
 
I have unlocked our precognition page:

vsbattles.fandom.com

Precognition

Precognition is the ability to know the future. Characters with this ability can, through varying means, accurately predict future events. Said means fall under two main categories: Divination, in which a user acquires impossible knowledge of upcoming events by looking into the future itself...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
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