Analytical prediction should have it’s own page

[Promestein]

I'd rather it got its own page than be combined with Information Analysis, if it's going to be split.

This would also involve a number of changes to a number of pages; I believe Scion and Contessa, for example, are Analytical Prediction users by this metric, as Path to Victory is based off of calculating and simulating the future. Maybe make a thread to manage them.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

I'd rather it got its own page than be combined with Information Analysis.

This would also involve a number of changes to a number of pages; I believe Scion and Contessa, for example, are Analytical Prediction users by this metric, as Path to Victory is based off of calculating and simulating the future.

Does this mean we will need to edit character profiles that have analytical prediction (we put parentheses to explain which analytical prediction they have, along with putting “other” if they have genius level intelligence)

 

[Promestein]

I mean, I don't like how the page is structured right now, you don't need to split Analytical Prediction into types; it's kind of a pretty straightforward ability and someone who can do one of these things can reasonably do the other two to some extent. Hell, anyone can do any of these things, it just depends on the extent of the ability, so I don't think we need any subtypes.

 

[Promestein]

Yeah, I feel like the draft as written undersells the ability. This doesn't account for advanced usage of Analytical Prediction, such as when people are basically supercomputers and brute force future calculations. What about characters that predict the future off of non-traditional, supernatural tells? (This is why I don't want them split, advanced Analytical Prediction is functionally indistinguishable from Precognition.)

I can offer to rewrite it but I'll note that I don't like the subtypes and I tend to write these things differently than most people seem to these days.

 

[Arkenis]

Yeah, I feel like the draft as written undersells the ability. This doesn't account for advancaed usage of Analytical Prediction, such as when people are basically supercomputers and brute force future calculations.

What characters are like that? I know extraordinary geniuses have the supercomputer thing but I don't know anyone who just actually does that.

 

[Arkenis]

But yeah a calculation prediction should be added called Mathematic Predictions

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Yeah, I feel like the draft as written undersells the ability. This doesn't account for advanced usage of Analytical Prediction, such as when people are basically supercomputers and brute force future calculations. What about characters that predict the future off of non-traditional, supernatural tells? (This is why I don't want them split, advanced Analytical Prediction is functionally indistinguishable from Precognition.)

I can offer to rewrite it but I'll note that I don't like the subtypes and I tend to write these things differently than most people seem to these days.

Sure if it helps then rewrite it

 

[Promestein]

What characters are like that? I know extraordinary geniuses have the supercomputer thing but I don't know anyone who just actually does that.

I believe Path to Victory works like that, so there's Scion and Contessa, as well as probably other Worm precogs, given how Path to Victory is.

Korrok.

High Evolutionary, pretty sure.

Lots of people I'm forgetting.

 

[Arkenis]

advanced Analytical Prediction is functionally indistinguishable from Precognition

At that point though, such ap would be viewed as precog then. The page is mainly focusing on the average ap

 

[Promestein]

No, it isn't. The best argument for separating the pages is that they're affected differently by things like resistances or acausality. Scion and Contessa don't give a shit about Acausality, but resistance to Information Analysis throws them off at least a bit. In comparison, if you don't have a future, pre-Mimihagi Yhwach doesn't see you. That argument holds up just as well - if not better - with advanced Analytical Prediction users.

 

[Arkenis]

No, it isn't. The best argument for separating the pages is that they're affected differently by things like resistances or acausality. Scion and Contessa don't give a shit about Acausality, but resistance to Information Analysis throws them off at least a bit. In comparison, if you don't have a future, pre-Mimihagi Yhwach doesn't see you. That argument holds up just as well - if not better - with advanced Analytical Prediction users.

No to what? If an AAP borders on Precog idk why we wouldn't grant it precog. And not seeing one's future doesn't mean you can't read their muscle movements or behavior to predict their next move.

 

[Promestein]

No to it focusing on average Analytical Prediction.

If you people are ignoring the fact that Analytical Prediction can be Very Good and essentially comparable to Precognition in power even if functionally different, then I don't see why you'd split the pages. That's an argument I made in favor of keeping them the same before. You can't have it both ways, a power isn't magically another one just because it's actually good, and when the pages are differentiated it'd make it confusing which abilities are resisted by which things. Again, Scion doesn't care about Acausality, but a conventional Precog does.

Pick a lane.

Here's my take. Actually takes the examples on the Precog page that are Analytical Prediction by these metrics. The Precognition page would also need to be rewritten, with new examples.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

No to it focusing on average Analytical Prediction.

If you people are ignoring the fact that Analytical Prediction can be Very Good and essentially comparable to Precognition in power even if functionally different, then I don't see why you'd split the pages. That's an argument I made in favor of keeping them the same before. You can't have it both ways, a power isn't magically another one just because it's actually good, and when the pages are differentiated it'd make it confusing which abilities are resisted by which things. Again, Scion doesn't care about Acausality, but a conventional Precog does.

Pick a lane.

Here's my take. Actually takes the examples on the Precog page that are Analytical Prediction by these metrics. The Precognition page would also need to be rewritten.

Couldn’t you just uh edit my blog and then we add mine to the wiki once this has been accepted

there’s no need for two blogs, just one.

 

[Promestein]

I'm not positing my mine as better, just as another option in terms of formatting and content. I ultimately have no say which version is better; it's up to the people in the thread, so I'm showing mine as an alternative path.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

I'm not positing my mine as better, just as another option in terms of formatting and content. I ultimately have no say which version is better; it's up to the people in the thread, so I'm showing mine as an alternative path.

Okay, I was just hoping that you could edit my blog. I’m perfectly fine with that.

 

[Arkenis]

No to it focusing on average Analytical Prediction.

If you people are ignoring the fact that Analytical Prediction can be Very Good and essentially comparable to Precognition in power even if functionally different, then I don't see why you'd split the pages. That's an argument I made in favor of keeping them the same before. You can't have it both ways, a power isn't magically another one just because it's actually good, and when the pages are differentiated it'd make it confusing which abilities are resisted by which things. Again, Scion doesn't care about Acausality, but a conventional Precog does.

Pick a lane.

Here's my take.

It's not ignoring it, any AP that is bordering on Precog would mean the character can see the future, but at that point we would classify it as precog not AP. Idk this doesn't really seem to factor in that precog is about seeing the future, not predicting the future to the point you get it right or through other means.

Also Scion's precog seems to be a form of very good analytical prediction so idk why it was made as precog, unless im missing more info for it, making a simulation and then going off that is very good analytical prediction but it is not seeing the future itself.

 

[Just_a_Random_Butler]

Couldn’t you just uh edit my blog and then we add mine to the wiki once this has been accepted

there’s no need for two blogs, just one.

Okay, I was just hoping that you could edit my blog. I’m perfectly fine with that.

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure she can't edit your blog.

 

[Promestein]

It's not ignoring it, any AP that is bordering on Precog would mean the character can see the future, but at that point we would classify it as precog not AP. Idk this doesn't really seem to factor in that precog is about seeing the future, not predicting the future to the point you get it right or through other means.

Also Scion's precog seems to be a form of very good analytical prediction so idk why it was made as precog, unless im missing more info for it, making a simulation and then going off that is very good analytical prediction but it is not seeing the future itself.

Yes, that's the idea. They're not actually seeing the future, they're just forming a pretty much perfect simulation that allows them to take perfect actions pretty much 100% of the time. Technically they're not seeing the future - but in terms of actual tangible power, yeah, it's really similar. But they're not actually seeing the future, nor is anyone else good enough to calculate or simulate these things. Analytical Prediction won't magically be Precognition just because the person is actually consistently right.

Also yeah I can't even edit it. Not staff anymore.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure she can't edit your blog.

Mind doing it for me then? (Assuming you guys think her idea is better)

 

[Just_a_Random_Butler]

Mind doing it for me then? (Assuming you guys think her idea is better)

I don't have any opinion on this matter, and I'm not as invested in this discussion. The only reason I made changes to your draft was to prevent any hasty changes with mistakes or incorrect formatting from being applied.

Maybe it would be beneficial to keep the drafts separated, especially since there is still an ongoing discussion.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

I don't have any opinion on this matter, and I'm not as invested in this discussion. The only reason I made changes to your draft was to prevent any hasty changes with mistakes or incorrect formatting from being applied.

Maybe it would be beneficial to keep the drafts separated, especially since there is still an ongoing discussion.

Okay, maybe we should bring Ant or another Admin here.

I’ve already tried talking to damage and starter

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

What characters are like that? I know extraordinary geniuses have the supercomputer thing but I don't know anyone who just actually does that.

Rimuru Tempest. Literally his entire thing.

 

[First_Witch]

What Prom said is ultimatly true, AnaPre CAN simulate the effect of Precognition if potent enough. But that still dosn't make it Precognition/Future vision, as the ability does not involve the actual, existing in the verse' cosmology's idea of the Future. I already explained why this distinction is pretty darn important, so I'm not going to repeat myself.

Overlaps in results can and will exist, this is a game you can play with tons of different players. We don't, because we all agree that mechanics are more important than just looking at the results, so we shoudn't do the same for this specific case.

Precognition involves the future, AnaPre involves readable physically present cues. Its not rocket science.

 

[Promestein]

I added Rimuru as an example, so that there's more of the Bullshit variety listed.

Would appreciate takes on which drafts people prefer and how either one can change.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm in favor of leaving 'em as one page. All of the examples given are indeed just... predicting the future. The only difference is the mechanics by which one achieves precognition (and, perhaps, the details garnered).

As for what Witchy said, we already recognize different types of resistances to the same ability grouping. Resisting mind-based Madness Manipulation would not grant resistance to Biological Madness Manipulation. I just don't see the point.

 

[Promestein]

I think we're probably losing that argument at this point, so.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Yeah the evidence right now currently points to they’re different enough for AP to have it’s own Page

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Sick, my vote remains then

 

[TheRustyOne]

Predict: "Say or estimate that (a specified thing) will happen in the future or will be a consequence of something."

Precognition: "foreknowledge of an event, especially foreknowledge of a paranormal kind."

Precognition is knowing about something before it happens. Prediction is just a guess based on things that have already happened. Precog is not prediction, it's knowing the future with certainty. Obviously fiction can make precog wrong, you resist it, change reality/fate, or whatever.

Yet you're not predicting, you know what will happen. And it either happens or something special happens that overwrites that future. Or ,aybe the person's power isn't even precog but just supernatural prediction, it can be wrong and doesn't actually see future events. Regardless, precognition isn't prediction.

"Precognition is the ability to see the future. " That is what it should be limited to, the ability to see/know the future. Guessing what is going to happen is not seeing the future. That's not an opinion but a fact. Why exactly are we having it fit into a category it shouldn't even be in?

Why are Time Stop and Time Manipulation allowed to be different things? (It's popular) But characters who predict have to be lumped with those who see the future?

Call me crazy, but I think guessing someone's movements based on their previous actions is different from seeing into the future. Yeah there is overlap, but so what? Just because both can achieve the same point of "knowing" the future and can appear identical, doesn't meaning anything.

Enhancing your speed to be so fast that the world appears to slow down isn't the same as actually slowing down time. Visually they're identical and achieve the same result, but they're completely different abilities and we label them as completely different abilities. How is this any different?

I'd much prefer if people admit they don't want to make such wide changes because it's too much work. That's more believable and understandable.

 

[Promestein]

The argument is already more or less over. Time Stop should probably be unsplit anyways.

Proper precognition can also be wrong. You're not necessarily seeing the right future.

I rewrote both pages, since I figured no one else would get around to rewriting Precog.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

The argument is already more or less over. Time Stop should probably be unsplit anyways.

Proper precognition can also be wrong. You're not necessarily seeing the right future.

I rewrote both pages, since I figured no one else would get around to rewriting Precog.

This page has one fatal flaw: the fact that the Sharingan isn’t the main image for Analytical Prediction despite it being the most popular usage of the power ever.

On a serious note, since there’s two difference tabbers (pages? dunno what to call it), shouldn’t the people who do AP only and Precog only be split up accordingly instead of being under one user list, or is that too meticulous?

 

[Promestein]

I was considering putting Sharingan users as an example under Analytical Prediction but then I'd have to find another good popular Precog example. Trying to keep them equal.

They're already split up between tabbers, and they'll be different pages.

 

[Arkenis]

Yhwach is precog.
Sharingan is good analytical but even that has very prominent precog showings such as against Naruto

 

[Promestein]

I know, Yhwach is listed under Precognition. My post clearly says that I rewrote both pages, and they're divided by a tabber. Yhwach is under Precognition.

Sharingan is Analytical Prediction.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I was considering putting Sharingan users as an example under Analytical Prediction but then I'd have to find another good popular Precog example. Trying to keep them equal.

Julius Novachrono, Black Clover. There.

 

[Promestein]

Thank you. There. 10 examples of each.

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Chisato is a good example of this power so I thought she should be the image for the power

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'd much prefer if people admit they don't want to make such wide changes because it's too much work. That's more believable and understandable.

Awesome, it's my belief that the split is on semantics whereas I feel pages that are, mechanically, more or less similar, should just be one page. If you feel differently, that's fantastic- but please don't presume to know what my ass is thinking, aye? It's assholeish.

I realize the discussion was over very rapidly, Prom. I was asked here, today, and responded upon my first ability to do so. I don't think that's a particular problem, to make my thoughts known, as these sorts of things tend to be relevant when these sorts of threads are looked upon in retrospect. "Well actually Bambu said he felt differently, so maybe we should invite him to the newer discussion, etc etc"? Aye?

 

[Promestein]

I'm just sad, as a fellow anti-split member. It's not a problem. I do fundamentally agree with you about the pages.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Aye, I'm just makin' it known why I'm here, commenting as I am. I dunno why it took so long for me to be asked here, nor why I was asked at what appears to be the dead end of the thread- but as I was, I gave my opinion on the concept, even though this is, as mentioned, the ass-end of the thread.

Do carry on with example gathering and such if needed, don't mind me.