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does dbh still qualify for low 1-c?
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All of Dragon Ball Cosmology revision (STAFF ONLY)
- Thread starter Zamasu_Chan
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- #242
Probably not since the timelines are the same.
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Don't have the time to adress everything right now, but here are replies to some posts addressing me:
For protocol, I hope we can agree that both constructs have the same amount of spatial and temporal dimensions, that both are the same except for a rotation and that rotating an object doesn't influence its size.
After the destruction the construct is {1,2...., 12}×(R×R×R)×R.
The part destroyed is {12,...,18}×(R×R×R)×R.
That is 4D and equivalent to destroying 8 spacetimes. A 2-C feat.
While you could theoretically describe the process of the multiverse changing by adding a second time-axis, that is only a model on your part and not something actually provided in the verse. Given that, you don't really know whether it actually is time-dimension-like or just a set of finite states. Furthermore, it is entirely irrelevant for the verse, since the time dimension you invented to describe the change of multiversal spacetime is not interacted with, or especially destroyed, by anything in Dragon Ball.
Yes, it's (apparently; ideally I would rather not get into that debate) a 4th-dimensional structure consisting of 3 space and 1 time dimension, which would make destroying it Low 2-C. That's more or less what I assumed in my initial explanation. INstead of using {1,2,3,4,...,12} you might need to replace 12 with a higher number, but that is all that changes.
The 5th dimension in your explanation isn't time-like. It's not like the 1st universe happens before the 12th universe. The 5th dimension in your explanation is space-like. In any case, what you are describing is just a standard multiverse. The empty space of the 5th dimension which isn't part of the spacetime continuums is not included and destroying a construct like you describe is not considered Low 1-C, as the 5th dimension in which are actually things is of insignificant size. That's literally the reason we don't automatically consider every single universe in fiction to be Low 1-C.
I don't understand what you're trying to say. We have three spatial dimensions in that construct, so what do you mean by not working under a secondary spatial dimension?
For protocol, I hope we can agree that both constructs have the same amount of spatial and temporal dimensions, that both are the same except for a rotation and that rotating an object doesn't influence its size.
This isn't a subjective issue. Where you observe it form makes no difference. So I don't get what you are trying to say.
The initial construct is {1,2....18}×(R×R×R)×R.That would lead to product of another R onto the current product ....
basically R×{1....12}×(R×R×R)×R.
Now I am not so brave as to apply entire set of points of this higher temporal dimension onto this product.
But as Ultima mentioned that any length of time in another axis of time suffices for "dislocation" as he put it
What I wanted show here is that these space-times flow forward in the flow of this higher time.
Lets take this and apply directly onto DB chronology.
In the past there were 18 space-times.
So the product will look like this at a single instant...."Zeroth" moment.
{1,2....18}×(R×R×R)×R
After some time " t" the 6 space-times are destroyed. And only 12 remain. Lets call this point of time in present as "t1".
So product will look like ...
{1....12}×(R×R×R)×R
So if were to sit outside the timeline and map all the progress of the universes from start uptill this point....
0+t=t1....or t=t1....basically the time interval.
[0,t1) is a uncountably large set , albiet not as large as R....but still uncountable, I believe this also called Cantor Set??
[0,t1)×{1...18}×(R×R×R)×R......
so this basically satisfies the condition for bijections of 5 sets containing uncountable elements I guess....
Low1C??
So basically I tried to map the journey of Present Timeline of DB and all universes inside it.
And I am a nervous wreck now....
After the destruction the construct is {1,2...., 12}×(R×R×R)×R.
The part destroyed is {12,...,18}×(R×R×R)×R.
That is 4D and equivalent to destroying 8 spacetimes. A 2-C feat.
While you could theoretically describe the process of the multiverse changing by adding a second time-axis, that is only a model on your part and not something actually provided in the verse. Given that, you don't really know whether it actually is time-dimension-like or just a set of finite states. Furthermore, it is entirely irrelevant for the verse, since the time dimension you invented to describe the change of multiversal spacetime is not interacted with, or especially destroyed, by anything in Dragon Ball.
Stefano4444
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I was given permission to comment by DarkDragonMedeus here.
I'm on the same opinion as DarkDragonMedeus for the most part, i do find iffy for me to place a timeline at Low 1-C, if the series did have statements about the existence of higher dimensional spaces then it could be fair, but there are none so i'm really unsure about putting a timeline at Low 1-C.
And even if its more accurate, i don't think Zeno should be put at that level since it seen to me that he only erased the universes but not the actual timeline, so Low 1-C would only be limited to Heroes/Xenoverse characters since they do actually affect/destroy them.
However unlike with Medeus i do think that 3-A characters should be upgraded to fully Low 2-C, there is enough evidence to consider each universes as a large Low 2-C structure as it is made by two universal size space-time continuums (the Afterlife and Living World), both stick together while be spatially separated, so 2x above baseline Low 2-C.
Meaning Battle of Gods SSjG Goku should be put at Low 2-C, also anyone comparable to Infinite Zamasu would be put at At least Low 2-C, since he was not only able to become one with the 7th Universe but he was able to breach the unquantifiable distance between Future Timeline and Present Timeline, to the point to start affect it the latter, a feat far above baseline Low 2-C, potentially near 2-C (but i'm uncertain about that).
Which make sense powerscaling wise we know that fight between Beerus and Champa could accidentally destroy their home universes as a side effect, aka a 2-C feat performed by two characters, while Angels are remain 2-C for the same reason as before.
Another thing that it should be taken intro account its that the Heaven its stated multiple times over to be around the size of an universe, meaning that the actual size of the 7th Universe its most likely much bigger than we currently potray, such this would upgrade Speed feats from DBS by a good margin (around 7 times if the math i done its correct).
And for the Infinite Speed, there are indeed several statements about the Living World be infinite, however such statements are not present in the main series, so i'm conflicted about that, i guess the compromised proposed by Zamasu (Massively FTL+, possibly Infinite) could be used in this case.
I'm on the same opinion as DarkDragonMedeus for the most part, i do find iffy for me to place a timeline at Low 1-C, if the series did have statements about the existence of higher dimensional spaces then it could be fair, but there are none so i'm really unsure about putting a timeline at Low 1-C.
And even if its more accurate, i don't think Zeno should be put at that level since it seen to me that he only erased the universes but not the actual timeline, so Low 1-C would only be limited to Heroes/Xenoverse characters since they do actually affect/destroy them.
However unlike with Medeus i do think that 3-A characters should be upgraded to fully Low 2-C, there is enough evidence to consider each universes as a large Low 2-C structure as it is made by two universal size space-time continuums (the Afterlife and Living World), both stick together while be spatially separated, so 2x above baseline Low 2-C.
Meaning Battle of Gods SSjG Goku should be put at Low 2-C, also anyone comparable to Infinite Zamasu would be put at At least Low 2-C, since he was not only able to become one with the 7th Universe but he was able to breach the unquantifiable distance between Future Timeline and Present Timeline, to the point to start affect it the latter, a feat far above baseline Low 2-C, potentially near 2-C (but i'm uncertain about that).
Which make sense powerscaling wise we know that fight between Beerus and Champa could accidentally destroy their home universes as a side effect, aka a 2-C feat performed by two characters, while Angels are remain 2-C for the same reason as before.
Another thing that it should be taken intro account its that the Heaven its stated multiple times over to be around the size of an universe, meaning that the actual size of the 7th Universe its most likely much bigger than we currently potray, such this would upgrade Speed feats from DBS by a good margin (around 7 times if the math i done its correct).
And for the Infinite Speed, there are indeed several statements about the Living World be infinite, however such statements are not present in the main series, so i'm conflicted about that, i guess the compromised proposed by Zamasu (Massively FTL+, possibly Infinite) could be used in this case.
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Sorry for intruding, but what were the agreed conclusions for the DB cosmology
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What’s being discussed
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Well, we haven't quite decided that, but it seems like we will either likely keep the current DBS power levels, or possibly accept a slight upgrade.
There was a comment that Low 1-C may or may not be acceptable for the god-tiers of the Dragon Ball Xenoverse/Heroes continuity though, but I am the wrong person to ask.
There was a comment that Low 1-C may or may not be acceptable for the god-tiers of the Dragon Ball Xenoverse/Heroes continuity though, but I am the wrong person to ask.
DivineAura44
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The point of Low 1-C has stopped being argued upon in this thread. If someone wants to make a CRT using some evidence from this thread and make your own revisions go ahead (I doubt it'll go through though.)
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That it stays the same. It remains at 2-C. The thread was just sad and disappointing with people not understanding the whole thing and going off of what someone said on discord in an offhand conversation. The whole misunderstanding could have been avoided but people jumped the gun with a few trying to wank 12 universes to Low 1-C and the other few trying to downplay it to Low 2-C. 2-C is what makes the most sense with what's shown in the verse and according to the system too.
This thread should just be closed at this point.
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Why was this thread closed to begin with? Low 1-C isn’t the only issue.
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The literal only thing I agree with is that the macroverse is a 2-C structure
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DivineAura44
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No.
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It seems that the majority disagree with the upgrade why not close the thread?
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Wut? No, people are still arguing
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Majority disagree with low 1-c but that isn't the only purpose of the thread.
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Yeah, I don't agree with low 1-C, but there is still a lot to talk about
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Infinite Speed is a no to me. This is just fridge logic achieved by taking statements of the universe being infinite as literal and then extrapolating feats (For Whis and Beerus) and then scaling.
The characters having infinite speed breaks the sequence of events.
The characters having infinite speed breaks the sequence of events.
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Yeah, infinite speed makes no sense for the DB cast, since even Whis needed time for a finite distance.
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You actually defies everything without debunking them I was expecting a proper refute
Anyway "breaks the sequence of Events" Why & how exactly ?!?
"Fridge logic" Ok but why?!?
You have to explain why U think so
"Extrapolating feats & scaling" Ok matt if something is infinite & U are going to destroy it with ur attack im finite time, do U think thats only finite speed?!? Just thik more logically & refute the claims properly
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Actually majority agrees but not everyone is commenting
(Sorry to interrupt several times im staff thread guys)
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Taking a finite amount of time to cross infinity is literally infinite speed defined dude
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Kaioken multiples speed linearly and its effective. Therefore Goku doesn't have infinite speed.
Goku is affected by time thefore he doesn't have infinite speed.
Goku and other characters take finite amount of time to cross distances therefore their speed is not infinite
In the manga the Brave Troopers use their spaceship to cross interstellar distances therefore Toppo is not infinite speed
Zamasu didn't wipe out all life in the universes over 0 seconds therefore he doesn't have infinite speed
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Or, it means that the infinity isn't literal or you're seeing a feat where there is none.Taking a finite amount of time to cross infinity is literally infinite speed defined dude
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If U have infinite speed & U can boast ur speed on top of that with multipliers that would be a higher degree of infinite speed
Also Matt Travel Speed ≠ Attack Speed
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I mean, air is still a necessary thing
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Read again what I said but carefully.Taking a finite amount of time to cross infinity is literally infinite speed defined dude
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If they have infinite speed they wouldn't breathe air in the span of flying.
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No, ignorance.
Infinite x 2 isn't bigger than infinite x 1, you have no ******* clue what you're saying. This is not how higher infinities work. And God help us all if people unironically start arguing for Aleph-Omega Fast Goku.
They are literally arguing for Infinite speed and applying it to everything. Don't packpedall.
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There is a whole concept of a cosmic map. If you go flying through space, it is difficult to locate yourself.
EDIT: Lol I don't even agree with infinite speed. There is no reason to argue
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Higher than baseline infinite speed is a thing.
Didn’t stop him from moving in a timeless void kek.
I’m guessing you don’t know what perspective it?
Most spaceships in DB can cross the universe. Jiren > spaceship.
You’re joking right?
Not unless you have refutes to the universe being infinite.
I know exactly what you said. Your comment implies that the universe is finite while mine implies it’s infinite.
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I am arguing for attack speed which is true I dont care what anyone is arguing bro
Infinite x 2 mathematically is same AS infinite x 1 but in fiction they can get faster than baseline infinite speed , ok?!
Attack speed in DB scales to reaction & combat speed AS well but not travel speed
Example : Goku despite being Relativistic+ travel in snake way Slower than the speed of lightning
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Woah do you know what you’re implying? You’re essentially saying that nothing can be higher than infinity at all. In fiction it definitely can. I guess nothing is higher than High 3-A because nothing is higher than it.
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"Muh fiction" is a coward's argument.
Nobody has ever excused fiction for being consistent or logically sound. You just say it because you know it makes no sense but you still want it because it'll make the characters stronger on a website. Not because you actually believe it.
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No you're wrong. You can't ignore basic math based on your feelings.
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