All of Dragon Ball Cosmology revision (STAFF ONLY)

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Didn’t stop him from moving in a timeless void kek.

This isn't even a feat anymore you're being dishonest and throwing shit that isn't even accepted in the wiki at the wall.

SAD!

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

"Muh fiction" is a coward's argument.

Nobody has ever excused fiction for being consistent or logically sound. You just say it because you know it makes no sense but you still want it because it'll make the characters stronger on a website. Not because you actually believe it.

I’m gonna have to ask you to dial down your attitude. If you don’t have anything constructive or productive to say, then leave.

 

[Alphaapexnep00]

"Muh fiction" is a coward's argument.

Nobody has ever excused fiction for being consistent or logically sound. You just say it because you know it makes no sense but you still want it because it'll make the characters stronger on a website. Not because you actually believe it.

Damn since when did a show about a monkey alien make any sense in the first place.

 

[LightReinh12345]

"Muh fiction" is a coward's argument.

Nobody has ever excused fiction for being consistent or logically sound. You just say it because you know it makes no sense but you still want it because it'll make the characters stronger on a website. Not because you actually believe it.

You are making false Assumptions about him
How do U know what he believes

No you're wrong. You can't ignore basic math based on your feelings.

"Basic math based on my feelings" I think U are making false Assumptions fallacy & you are actually wrong you never read Threads & Sets theory do you
There can be higher Levels of infinity
You are actually making illogical arguments based on your Personal feelings in my view
Also U are being rude to us with ur false assumptions

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I’m gonna have to ask you to dial down your attitude. If you don’t have anything constructive or productive to say, then leave.

I have something productive to say:

The upgrade isn't being affected because it's not based on logic or reason or even what is observable within the series.

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

Damn since when did a show about a monkey alien make any sense in the first place.

Like, never. Not once has DB obeyed logic

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Infinite speed was something we went over, the only think left to discuss is possible Low 1-C upgrades for the Dragon Ball Heroes cast. But at this point, I'm tempted to basically say make a new thread for that. Because if circular or necro'd topics get brought up again, that becomes a good time to close a thread. Infinite speed is rejected, the Timelines being Low 1-C individually is rejected.

Additionally, Stefano also at least is trying to be reasonable for the BoG saga stuff. Not saying I agree with the points but see where he's coming from. I disagree with afterlifes being its own timeline but only different bodies of space. I however only agree that the original BoG saga feat is simply massively above baseline 3-A. I do not agree with the 'Reducing Universe 7 to avoid" being Low 2-C feat as that was a mistranslation. And the original Japanese text pretty much just says all matter in the universe is being destroyed + the afterlife. It doesn't quite say all time and space is.

 

[AKM sama]

So no one’s gonna talk about the top portion of this post?

What exactly are you trying to propose in that post?

 

[Greenshifter]

the only think left to discuss is possible Low 1-C upgrades for the Dragon Ball Heroes cast. But at this point, I'm tempted to basically say make a new thread for that

I'll probably make a new thread for that then.

 

[AKM sama]

I honestly don't see a need for a new thread. Nothing's changed in that regard and it's not like the stuff hasn't been discussed here anyway, so you can probably continue discussing it here if anything else is left to discuss. A new thread is just going to be the same as this one.

 

[Stefano4444]

Why was this thread closed to begin with? Low 1-C isn’t the only issue.

True there is also the matter of the individual universes be large Low 2-C structures, since it would affect the tier of DBS cast as i stated in my previous comment.

 

[Greenshifter]

I honestly don't see a need for a new thread. Nothing's changed in that regard and it's not like the stuff hasn't been discussed here anyway, so you can probably continue discussing it here if anything else is left to discuss. A new thread is just going to be the same as this one.

I have other stuff in mind which relies on more maths stuff, probably better to have a new OP for it. But I don’t care too much where it’s brought up. Although is the universe being infinite rejected or infinite speed for the characters rejected? Cause my reasoning relies on the former being accepted.

 

[AKM sama]

there is also the matter of the individual universes be large Low 2-C structures

That is already how they are currently treated.

Although is the universe being infinite rejected or infinite speed for the characters rejected?

Yes. If there is some other reasoning, then you could probably create a separate thread for that later. Otherwise, if the reasoning is in line with what's discussed in this thread, it's better to end this discussion here and now instead of dragging it on.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally think that Matthew makes good sense here, but he needs to try to be more polite.

Also, since infinite speed has been rejected, we should preferably focus on whether or not Dragon Ball Heroes/Xenoverse should be Low 1-C.

Regarding Zamasu's post, as far as I am aware it is possible to reach Low 2-C by simply destroying a universal space-time continuum, or at least it used to be.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Tbh, there are some issues about both Low 1-C and Infinite Speed here:

For Low 1-C:

• Dragon Ball kinda follows the Bubble Multiverse theory in its own way, a bit like Pokémon does with MWI, they reference these theories, but they use them in "a different way", like Pokémon multiplies the usage of MWI, and instead of just a multiverse based on possibilities it makes 60 millions of them because of the game catridge logic. Here Dragon Ball is the same, it follows the Bubble Multiverse theory but not fully, since instead of infinite bubble universes it has just 18 of them. However both work in the same way, bubbles having each one their own space-time, which are part of the bigger space-time of the timeline like a puzzle, this is just a bigger 4D, since more 4D continuums toghether make just a bigger 4D continuum too.
• This even respects the whole "Universe 7 being its whole space-time" in the Fuu thing.
• Nothing in the links I used here has something saying about the bubble universes being contained in an higher dimension (1st link talks about Higher-D only about the Brane Theory, which is completely another thing for obvious reasons), but, as said before, just a "bigger space-time continuum which is made of the smaller space-times of the individual universes", and this is for the regular theory, which is 2-A on its own. So why would a restricted version of it being Low 1-C then?
• 2-C for the timelines is definitely way safer and respects the usage of the theory more without too weird assumptions, also because nothing in Dragon Ball remotely talked about an "higher dimension of time for the timeline", but is more that the space-times are just part of a bigger one, simply as that. Also because such ends need explicit statements from the verse itself instead of extrapolating it this much with such baseless highballs.

For the Infinite Speed instead:

• Ok, so the databooks say that the universe is infinite and with infinite galaxies. However is the same databook who explicitely says that the uniniverse has just 4 galaxies. So databook is contradicting and shouldn't be used.
• Them having infinite speed doesen't have sense since the whole Tournament of Power is done in 48 minutes, which was counted as a time limit from everyone. Unless in Dragon Ball the seconds are now infinite time, it's even contradicting a whole arc.

So TLDR:

Infinite Speed is a no-no, and Timelines should remain at 2-C in their entirely.

 

[Stefano4444]

Ok, so the databooks say that the universe is infinite and with infinite galaxies. However is the same databook who explicitely says that the uniniverse has just 4 galaxies. So databook is contradicting and shouldn't be used.

Wasn't that a mistranslation, since the japanese word for galaxy don't have a plural?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Wasn't that a mistranslation, since the japanese word for galaxy don't have a plural?

It still bounds the universe at just 4 of them, is obviously false, but it shouldn't be used as it contradicts itself regardless. Also Infinite Speed got already rejected, soooo

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

The Low 1-C stuff is kinda complex to explain. The standard as a whole is strange, but all I can say is that the number of universes doesn't matter, as already explained in the previous thread.

 

[Vietthai96]

I really don't understand, why people love to use the 4 galaxies statement, there are perfectly an infinite universe with just 4 galaxies, it is not like an infinite universe need infinite galaxies to be infinite, this is fiction after all

 

[Alphaapexnep00]

Super sheron debut literally debunked the four galaxies.

 

[Goldenchimchar]

Someone explain to me why is Matthew's word being taken seriously. He's not even staff anymore.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

It still bounds the universe at just 4 of them, is obviously false, but it shouldn't be used as it contradicts itself regardless. Also Infinite Speed got already rejected, soooo

@Orange wanted to post here, but since he doesn't have mod permission I will be posting for him.

1) First it's a mistranslation, second in the same sentence it was stated "four galaxies that exists infinitely " we have about three statement about infinite and one finite, the same databook that states that there are immeasurable stars, nebulas. The universe is also stated to be endlessly expansive, it means that it has an expanse or size that is endless. So the living universe has one statement that says it expands endlessly , has immeasurable nebulas and stars, it has galaxies that exists infinitely . And in the demon real stated to have four different spaces just like the living universe , so 4 galaxy is definitely a mistranslation.

-----------------×-----------------------×----------------

I will also like to add that , it is definitely talking about 4 sectors or divisions of universe not singular galaxies.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Someone explain to me why is Matthew's word being taken seriously. He's not even staff anymore.

Lets not antagonise anyone.....staff or regular members.....
As long as valid and good arguements are given it doesn't matter who it comes from.

Just ask the other guy to give better refutes to arguements themselves rather than attack the commentator.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The Low 1-C stuff is kinda complex to explain. The standard as a whole is strange, but all I can say is that the number of universes doesn't matter, as already explained in the previous thread.

How is that relevant? If even the version with infinite universes isn't Low 1-C, why the one with 12 should?

 

[Greenshifter]

That will be brought up in another thread most likely. I’m awaiting confirmation from someone.

 

[StrymULTRA]

That will be brought up in another thread most likely. I’m awaiting confirmation from someone.

Antvasima and AKM already disagree with another thread, so that will be discussed here.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

How is that relevant? If even the version with infinite universes isn't Low 1-C, why the one with 12 should?

Again, it's difficult to explain. GreenShifter might be able to do so thought

Antvasima and AKM already disagree with another thread, so that will be discussed here.

No, Green said he had other stuff to argue, and AKM said another thread was fine if he had other arguments

Yes. If there is some other reasoning, then you could probably create a separate thread for that later. Otherwise, if the reasoning is in line with what's discussed in this thread, it's better to end this discussion here and now instead of dragging it on.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Stuff

Oh, well, that is kinda still contradicted from the whole ToP anyways.

Again, it's difficult to explain. Green shifter might be able to do so thought

It's not, I read it all, it's supposed to be 5D because of 3 Spatial Dimensions + 2 Temporal ones. But the Bubble Multiverse theory doesen't work like this for the reasons I already told.

 

[LightReinh12345]

Tbh, there are some issues about both Low 1-C and Infinite Speed here:

For Low 1-C:

• Dragon Ball kinda follows the Bubble Multiverse theory in its own way, a bit like Pokémon does with MWI, they reference these theories, but they use them in "a different way", like Pokémon multiplies the usage of MWI, and instead of just a multiverse based on possibilities it makes 60 millions of them because of the game catridge logic. Here Dragon Ball is the same, it follows the Bubble Multiverse theory but not fully, since instead of infinite bubble universes it has just 18 of them. However both work in the same way, bubbles having each one their own space-time, which are part of the bigger space-time of the timeline like a puzzle, this is just a bigger 4D, since more 4D continuums toghether make just a bigger 4D continuum too.
• This even respects the whole "Universe 7 being its whole space-time" in the Fuu thing.
• Nothing in the links I used here has something saying about the bubble universes being contained in an higher dimension (1st link talks about Higher-D only about the Brane Theory, which is completely another thing for obvious reasons), but, as said before, just a "bigger space-time continuum which is made of the smaller space-times of the individual universes", and this is for the regular theory, which is 2-A on its own. So why would a restricted version of it being Low 1-C then?
• 2-C for the timelines is definitely way safer and respects the usage of the theory more without too weird assumptions, also because nothing in Dragon Ball remotely talked about an "higher dimension of time for the timeline", but is more that the space-times are just part of a bigger one, simply as that. Also because such ends need explicit statements from the verse itself instead of extrapolating it this much with such baseless highballs.

For the Infinite Speed instead:

• Ok, so the databooks say that the universe is infinite and with infinite galaxies. However is the same databook who explicitely says that the uniniverse has just 4 galaxies. So databook is contradicting and shouldn't be used.
• Them having infinite speed doesen't have sense since the whole Tournament of Power is done in 48 minutes, which was counted as a time limit from everyone. Unless in Dragon Ball the seconds are now infinite time, it's even contradicting a whole arc.

So TLDR:

Infinite Speed is a no-no, and Timelines should remain at 2-C in their entirely.

the galaxies point & Travel speed, attack speed was already debunked read above kindly
AS for Low 1-C its still ongoing

 

[AKM sama]

Super sheron debut literally debunked the four galaxies.

And nobody in this thread is saying there are only four galaxies. Just that the Daizenshuu clearly said there were four galaxies. People can obviously use the age-old excuse that the term used was "north galaxy" which could also mean "north galaxies", but in one of the above scan posted by someone, it's clearly written

"There is a ruling Kami for each galaxy."

The use of the word "each" clearly portrays that the term used here is meant to be singular "galaxy" because "each galaxies" doesn't make sense. Then we had the infamous scene of Broly destroying a single galaxy on screen while the narration, King Kai and Goku said that the whole "South Galaxy" ws destroyed. Again giving more credence to the fact that previously, the Daizenshuu with the context, only ever meant four galaxies literally.

We already know the above information is false since DBS introduced Super Shenron through which several galaxies were portrayed. And then we also had Jaco saying that the universe has a "crazy" number of galaxies.

 

[Alphaapexnep00]

And nobody in this thread is saying there are only four galaxies. Just that the Daizenshuu clearly said there were four galaxies. People can obviously use the age-old excuse that the term used was "north galaxy" which could also mean "north galaxies", but in one of the above scan posted by someone, it's clearly written

"There is a ruling Kami for each galaxy."

The use of the word "each" clearly portrays that the term used here is meant to be singular "galaxy" because "each galaxies" doesn't make sense. Then we had the infamous scene of Broly destroying a single galaxy on screen while the narration, King Kai and Goku said that the whole "South Galaxy" ws destroyed. Again giving more credence to the fact that previously, the Daizenshuu with the context, only ever meant four galaxies literally.

We already know the above information is false since DBS introduced Super Shenron through which several galaxies were portrayed. And then we also had Jaco saying that the universe has a "crazy" number of galaxies.

Ok

 

[LightReinh12345]

AS proven above that was a mistranslation
I am commenting because people are not seeing that or rather ignoring it

@Orange wanted to post here, but since he doesn't have mod permission I will be posting for him. First it's a mistranslation, second in the same sentence it was stated "four galaxies that exists infinitely " we have about three statement about infinite and one finite, the same databook that states that there are immeasurable stars, nebulas. The universe is also stated to be endlessly expanding, it means that it will always expand, or it expands endlessly as in it doesn't have any end. So the living universe has one statement that says it expands endlessly , has immeasurable nebulas and stars, it has galaxies that exists infinitely . And in the demon real stated to have four different spaces just like the living universe , so 4 galaxy is definitely a mistranslation.

-----------------×-----------------------×----------------

I will also like to add that , it is definitely talking about 4 sectors or divisions of universe not singular galaxies.

 

[AKM sama]

I am commenting because people are not seeing that or rather ignoring it

You posted the same scan again that I was talking about that debunks your point.

Moreover, the portrayal of the DB universe in every medium quite literally debunks any notion of it being infinite. The canon never states anything about having an infinite sized universe and even shows a portrayal that can only be considered as finite, both in the og manga and DBS anime, quite blatantly with the use of Super Shenron.

 

[AKM sama]

@Goldenchimchar if you don't have anything of value to say, then don't comment.

 

[LightReinh12345]

You posted the same scan again that I was talking about that debunks your point.

Moreover, the portrayal of the DB universe in every medium quite literally debunks any notion of it being infinite. The canon never states anything about having an infinite sized universe and even shows a portrayal that can only be considered as finite, both in the og manga and DBS anime, quite blatantly with the use of Super Shenron.

Dear AKM Lol you never debunked my point instead I debunked your points read the thread again
Also debunked the finite notion already
No points to going in circular
"It can only be considered as finite" Thats your headcanon?! Do you know that we already proved having an edge is not the issue & you are just repeating your points back & forth which I am forced to do as well since you are ignoring the actual refute
You are saying they "portrayed" & not actually refuting neither zamasu's Nor my point & not explaining how
(Besides you comitted many logical fallacies in this thread much more than any of us to be blunt)
I hope you will get well soon
Thank you

 

[Alphaapexnep00]

This thread is becoming toxic.

 

[Reio35]

All the universes are under one timeline cuz no one in dragon ball is prohibited to use time travel cuz it goes against the rules. So to say each individual universe is a timeline would make no sense cuz they would need a time machine or time travel to get to each universe. And the gods travel between universes all the time meaning they aren't timelines.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

This thread is becoming toxic.

Becoming? It already reached that point earlier, unfortunately.

 

[Alphaapexnep00]

Becoming? It already reached that point earlier, unfortunately.

True.

 

[Alphaapexnep00]

All the universes are under one timeline cuz no one in dragon ball is prohibited to use time travel cuz it goes against the rules. So to say each individual universe is a timeline would make no sense cuz they would need a time machine or time travel to get to each universe. And the gods travel between universes all the time meaning they aren't timelines.

What are you saying.