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Alien X Upgrade

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Atomic-X never fought the evil Bens to my knowledge, he just flicked Vilgax and fought Maltruant. The Vilgax flick would be him holding back(Celestialsapiens can hit people wihout obliterating them too), but I agree that he's clearly weaker than X as is demonstrated when he's fighting with the intent of defeating Maltruant. Not to move to a different topic, but Big Chuck should probably be a lower tier as well; he's another example of a fusion who apparently has less overall power than the stronger of the two, but is still currently scaled to Way Big because he's a fusion.
 
Yeah still not agreeing.

For one, I already addressed the scaling to the Chrono Navigator as being a flawed argument way above. I will post it again so that everyone can see it:

"No offense, but this is a very flawed and misleading argument. Paradox himself is not physically 2-B (2-A was debunked above). In fact, Paradox himself is not even a tier 2 being physically. With his powers, he is only like....7-A to 4-B at best. Paradox is only tier 2 using the Chrono Navigator, so even with using this statement of him saying Alien X is the strongest being in the universe, the scaling that would come from this said statement would only let Alien X scale above Paradox's individual capabilities. Not something seperate like a weapon. So this point is completely useless."

Reiterating what I already said before, "strongest power in the universe" statements do not apply to anything that is separate from an individuals own stats and capabilities. Like for instance, if someone is normally a High 6-A but uses a weapon that can unleash 5-A attacks. If someone else from that characters universe is stated to be the very strongest being, they aren't being scaled to 5-A. They are being upscaled to High 6-A. Paradox himself is not a tier 2 being whatsoever. He's at best 4-B with his powers and physically, he's only 7-A. The power of the Chrono Navigator, a weapon, is entirely indepedant from Paradoxes and any other beings individual capabilities. Just because the weapon can be used by anyone (which is common sense; it's a weapon) doesnt mean we can start using statements to scale someone above it. So as far as Paradox saying Alien X is the source of the universe's greatest power, it has absolutely no bearing on the Chrono Navigators power but the strength of the universe's individuals in question. We don't use these statements to scale other characters above weapons without explicit evidence and Alien X is no exception to this. There are also 2 other things that also need to be pointed out here as well.

Chrono Navigator isnt a 2-B device regularly
Lets take a look at Professor Paradoxes current justification for his 2-A rating:

"Multiverse level+ with the Chrono Navigator (If misused, the Chrono Navigator can destabilize space-time to the point that "all of existence", referred to the Cosmos which consisting parallel universes that branch off "ad infinitum", would be destroyed)"

Key word: If misused. Putting this here so that this isnt missed.

The Chrono Navigator, while indeed a 2-B weapon, isn't regularly at that level. And what do I mean by "regularly"? I mean that its not regularly designed for outputting 2-B energy. The Navigator is normally used as a dimensional-traveling device thats capable of traveling through space-time, reaching alternate universes and dimensions and points in the past, present and future of those dimensions freely without getting lost. The Chrono Navigator can only unleash 2-B power if it is misused in a way that it doesn't normally perform at. Think of this as someone overloading a reactor to cause a planet to explode. The reactor isnt normally tier 5, only when its used out of what its designed to do. So the only way to scale to the reactor is for a character in question to oppose it when it's actually malfunctioning. Not when its used in a way where it isn't outputing tier 5 energy. The same goes for Alien X and the Chrono Navigator

To put it simply, the Chrono Navigator is only a 2-B device when its being used in a way that it isnt normally used as. So even IF we pushed for the highest level interpretation, and scaled Alien X to the device, there is absolutely no evidence that proves Alien X would be superior or even comparable to the device when its used for something it is not supposed to perform at. And now for the next issue.

Alien X failing to stop the Annilaargh
This is something I just realized since I didnt reply to FireStorms last point he made to me yet. For this last point, im going to go out on a limb and assume that FireStorm is right before arguing against it.

Now, Firestorm's last point to me was that when Ben used Alien X to recreate the universe, he wasn't able to stop the old one from being erased by the Annilaargh's power. That by failing to stop the old universe from being destroyed, Ben just creates a duplicate one in its place. Assuming that FireStorm is indeed right about this point, this would be even more evidence on why Alien X wouldn't scale to the weapons. Why? Because it would be a massive outlier in and of itself.

And before anyone says it, no, im not talking about Low 2-C being the outlier. Alien X recreated the universe after all. But by arguing that Alien X couldnt stop the old one from being destroyed, that alone takes away any chance of him being above Low 2-C, let alone 2-B, without it becoming an outlier on itself. Someone with 2-B power wouldn't be powerless to stop a Low 2-C erasure. Why would Ben not be able to stop a simpe universe destruction process when he is supposedly at a level that is far, far above it?
 
@Firestorm

As far as I understand, the controversial comment was a reference to this character, which basically just means that somebody is being dumb. It may be impolite, but it is not a slur, at least in the western world.
 
@Andytrenom

What do you think about Kukui's argument?
 
Antvasima said:
@Andytrenom

What do you think about Kukui's argument?
Click to expand...
The argument that the statement won't account for weapons is extremely flawed. The statement never talks about the strongest person, it talks about the strongest power so assuming it only refers to an indivual's stats and leaves out weapons is completely baseless

In the example he used, the statement was specifically about the strongest being, so the character could only be compared to the other characters. If he had used a situation that was actually comparable to this one, where a person had a 5-A weapon and said a character "possessed the greatest power in the universe", then that would in fact imply he surpassed the power of that 5-A weapon

The 2-B thing is irrelevant since I'm just talking about whether Alien X scales to the Navigator, not whether he is 2-A

And the final point that he is less powerful than low 2-C erasure is also disproven by the fact that he was completely unfazed by said erasure and performed a feat of that level without effort
 
From what I remember, Ben failed to stop the Annihilarg because he transformed into Alien X too late, not because he was physically incapable of stopping it. They never really implied at all that the Annihilarg was too powerful for Alien X, just that it was going on and they couldn't stop it...because of indecision and whatnot.

This was back when Alien X needed to think through each of it's decisions. In that time, the Universe is gone.
 
Ayewale said:
From what I remember, Ben failed to stop the Annihilarg because he transformed into Alien X too late, not because he was physically incapable of stopping it. They never really implied at all that the Annihilarg was too powerful for Alien X, just that it was going on and they couldn't stop it...because of indecision and whatnot.
This was back when Alien X needed to think through each of it's decisions. In that time, the Universe is gone.
Click to expand...
And as I already proven before, the universe was not gone when Ben got permission to use Alien X. Even when Bellicus and Serena agreed to let Ben use Alien X, the universe was still in the middle of being destroyed, evidenced by the fact that they were watching the universe be destroyed from within Alien X. It wasnt completely destroyed.
 
But he says that he made a duplicate of the entire universe-which wouldn't be necessary if the entire universe wasn't gone.

Also, couldn't it have just be completely destroyed by the end of their conversation?
 
Ayewale said:
But he says that he made a duplicate of the entire universe-which wouldn't be necessary if the entire universe wasn't gone.
Also, couldn't it have just be completely destroyed by the end of their conversation?
Click to expand...
If anything, that only means Ben made a duplicate of what was already destroyed by the Anniliaargh and combined it with what was still left untouched by the attack.

And no, because we literally still see the universe being destroyed by the end of the conversation. And hear it being destroyed as well.
 
Well, I am currently neutral about whether or not Alien X should scale to 2-B then.

Anyway, regarding the k-word. I think that VioletVoid likely did not know about that it was also a slur used against black Africans, and thought that it was just something that very conservative Muslims call non-Muslims.
 
Fair enough.


But, however, he EXPLICITLY states that he recreated the entire universe. There is absolutely no working around that.


As for the K-word, eh, whatever, let's give him the benefit of doubt.
 
Should I add the k-word to our slur filter?
 
>The argument that the statement won't account for weapons is extremely flawed. The statement never talks about the strongest person, it talks about the strongest power so assuming it only refers to an indivual's stats and leaves out weapons is completely baseless

It isnt baseless here when, in the context of these circumstances, the weapon you are trying to scale Alien X to is not even a tier 2 weapon under normal regular conditions. Like I already explained before, the Chrono Navigator is not normally a 2-B weapon. Hell, its not even used as a weapo normally. It's simply normally treated as a dimensional traveling device. So even with the benefit of the doubt, nothing proves that Alien X is above the Chrono Navigator when its specifically used outside of its normal conditions and capabilities. Especially since, IIRC, Paradox made this statement long before Omniverse ever became a thing.

Not to mention, "strongest power in the universe" still doesnt automatically mean that it scales above everything within said universe.I even made a thread about this some time ago and you and several others agreed that it was too vague to even apply a minimal tier for these kinds of statements. And considering that Ben 10 is far more than just a simple universe, im not even sure why we would be taking "strongest in the universe" statements as any more than a grain of salt for it when its a Multiverse.

>And the final point that he is less powerful than low 2-C erasure is also disproven by the fact that he was completely unfazed by said erasure and performed a feat of that level without effort

First, part of this is just a durability feat. Second, my point wasnt to argue Alien X was below Low 2-C. My point was that because he apparently couldn't stop the feat from destroying everything and had to perform a Low 2-C from scratch, him scaling to something even higher than what the Annilaargh performed by a considerable amount is a massive outlier. Just because Alien X can casually perform a Low 2-C feat doesn't negate the anti-feat of not being able to stop another one from happening.
 
Here's the clip of the scene https://youtu.be/zUQSg-23vyI


Around the 2:25 mark this exchange occurs

Ben: Disappointment?! That's the universe, it's everything I know, it's everything there is!

Bellicus: Was

Serana: Technically

This implies the universe was in fact destroyed before Ben took control of Alien X

Also, if we say that Alien x is below the anhilaarg then we would also have to consider his low 2-C feat an outlier, since it's the same feat as what the anhilaarg is capable of done casually
 
Bellicus: Serena. Fine, but the next time the universe and everything in it is destroyed, don't come crying to me.

Ben: I know, right? I was too late to save the universe, so I used Alien X to make a whole new one.

It's consistanly said that Ben was too late to save the universe. This means that if he acted earlier, there would have been a universe to save. The universe was already destroyed before that point in the conversation. It's not about him not being powerful enough.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
>The argument that the statement won't account for weapons is extremely flawed. The statement never talks about the strongest person, it talks about the strongest power so assuming it only refers to an indivual's stats and leaves out weapons is completely baseless
It isnt baseless here when, in the context of these circumstances, the weapon you are trying to scale Alien X to is not even a tier 2 weapon under normal regular conditions. Like I already explained before, the Chrono Navigator is not normally a 2-B weapon. Hell, its not even used as a weapo normally. It's simply normally treated as a dimensional traveling device. So even with the benefit of the doubt, nothing proves that Alien X is above the Chrono Navigator when its specifically used outside of its normal conditions and capabilities. Especially since, IIRC, Paradox made this statement long before Omniverse ever became a thing.

Not to mention, "strongest power in the universe" still doesnt automatically mean that it scales above everything within said universe.I even made a thread about this some time ago and you and several others agreed that it was too vague to even apply a minimal tier for these kinds of statements. And considering that Ben 10 is far more than just a simple universe, im not even sure why we would be taking "strongest in the universe" statements as any more than a grain of salt for it when its a Multiverse.

>And the final point that he is less powerful than low 2-C erasure is also disproven by the fact that he was completely unfazed by said erasure and performed a feat of that level without effort

First, part of this is just a durability feat. Second, my point wasnt to argue Alien X was below Low 2-C. My point was that because he apparently couldn't stop the feat from destroying everything and had to perform a Low 2-C from scratch, him scaling to something even higher than what the Annilaargh performed by a considerable amount is a massive outlier. Just because Alien X can casually perform a Low 2-C feat doesn't negate the anti-feat of not being able to stop another one from happening.
Click to expand...
Interesting take. However, Professor Paradox created the machine and, considering his absurdly high intelligence stat, he should be perfectly aware of the capabilities of the Chrono Navigator, even as he's making it. Also, the first appearance of the Chrono Navigator have been since Alien Force, so it existed before he knew Alien X existed.
 
Portrayls >>>>>>>> Statements as priority. Bellicus and Serena are obviously wrong since even from within Alien X, we literally still see the universe going through the process of being destroyed. Which would be impossible if the universe was already gone.

Not to mention, right before Ben says that, he even tells them that "the universe is being destroyed", not that "it has been destroyed". And Serena even comments on how its sad for her to see the universe's inhabitants be destroyed. How can she see anything be destroyed if the universe was already gone prior to Ben meeting with them?
 
Ayewale said:
Interesting take. However, Professor Paradox created the machine and, considering his absurdly high intelligence stat, he should be perfectly aware of the capabilities of the Chrono Navigator, even as he's making it. Also, the first appearance of the Chrono Navigator have been since Alien Force, so it existed before he knew Alien X existed.
Click to expand...
Ill concede on the last point, however the first point is not automatically true. Characters all the time create machinery that, when used outside of their normal settings and programming, can unleash feats that the creator was not aware of initially.

Simply put, Paradox didnt know that the Navigator can cause all of existence to be destroyed when misused. And its entirely reasonable for Paradox to not know about that since, normally, the Chrono Navigator is literally just a dimensional traveling device. Far from being what is considered an offensive weapon at all.
 
Serena: Oh, look, Belicus. Ben Tennyson has come to visit us again.

Bellicus: Great. Tell me when he leaves.

Ben: Wait. The universe really is being destroyed?

Bellicus: Must they make so much noise?

Serena: It is futile but a bit sad to see them go.

Ben: Belicus, Serena, you got to let me use Alien X to stop the Annihilarrgh! Hey, I finally said it.

Bellicus: Oh, it's too late for that.

Ben: What? I-it can't be!

Serena: I'm afraid it is. Oh, I can sense your disappointment.

Ben: Disappointment?! That's the universe! It's everything I know! It's everything there is!

Bellicus: Was.

Serena: Technically.

Ben: But Alien X can fix this, right? Right?!

Serena: Alien X can do many things. We just both have to agree to it. Belicus.

Bellicus: Serena. Fine, but the next time the universe and everything in it is destroyed, don't come crying to me.
 
>It isnt baseless here when... device

Even if isn't always used as a weapon, that doesn't change the fact that it possesses 2-B power, so it is something you would keep in mind when deciding what the strongest power you know is

>Not to mention.... Multiverse.

You're right that a statement like this won't undoubtedly put something above everything there is in the universe, but, what we are talking about is something that the person making the statement posseses himself , which is far more reasonable to compare than say, making someone 4-B because he was stated to have "the strongest power in the universe" despite the verse as a whole being completely earthbound and never getting into stellar levels of power

The Forge isn't within a mere universe, it is its own thing outside universes, so it wouldn't makes sense for Paradox to be comparing it to just things within one universe anyway, I think it's more likely that paradox was just talking about how it is more powerful than anything he knows than how the forge's status is bound to a single universe

>First...top another one from happening.

If you argue that "Alien X is incapable of stopping low 2-C erasure" then you are arguing he's below low 2-C erasure as well, and if we recognize him as capable of performing a feat equal or above that level, then we can't say we legitimately consider his power to be below that level since in that case his current feat would also be an outlier
 
Is it fine if I add the k-word to the slur filter?
 
Current Feats and Statements:

  • Points For:
    • Professor Paradox and Azmuth repeatedly call the Celestialsapiens the "greatest power in the universe." Paradox goes as far to say they are omnipotent, meaning the strongest power he's ever seen which includes his Chrono Navigator.
      • Ben 10 Ultimate Alien - Map of Infinity
        • Azmuth: If Aggregor can reassemble the map, he can travel to the forge of creation and gain the greatest power in the universe.
      • Ben 10 Ultimate Alien - The Forge of Creation
        • Azmuth: Trivialities. While you did it about saving mere planets Aggregor obtained the means to travel to the forge of creation and obtain the greatest power in the universe!
        • Paradox: It is the source of the universe's greatest power. It's where ideas become real.
        • Paradox: Aggregor intends to absorb the abilities of a newborn Celestialsapien. Should he succeed, he will become omnipotent.
      • Ben 10 Omniverse - Ben Again
        • Professor Paradox: Eon wants nothing less than absolute power over everything all timelines, all alternate realities everything.
        • Eo: You are a timid fool, Paradox. Just because you never took full advantage of the Chrono Navigator's power doesn't mean I shouldn't
        • Professor Paradox: Yes, but in anyone else's hands but mine it could cause irreparable damage to the time-stream or destroy all of time and causality itself. In any event, I couldn't possibly give you the Chrono Navigator even if I wished to do so, because I don't have it.
        • Eo: Hmm. No, you don't, do you? You are many things, Paradox, but a liar you are not.
        • Eo: Merely the key to dominion over all space and time. And thanks to you, It is now mine! [ Laughs evilly ] It's amazing. Every time-line, every alternate reality, I can see them all and they're all mine!
        • Professor Paradox: On the contrary, I warned you. Stop this now or all of existence will be destroyed!
        • Eo: No! If I cannot rule the Cosmos then I will be the one to destroy it! Aaah!
    • (Writers may not have known the implication of tying the CTB plot hole.) When Alien X recreates the Universe, he recreates everything in it with his own energy, including the Chronosapien Time Bomb as well.
      • Ben 10 Omniverse S02 - So Long, and Thanks for All the Smoothies
        • Bellicus: Serena. Fine, but the next time the universe and everything in it is destroyed, don't come crying to me.
        • Ben: I know, right? I was too late to save the universe, so I used Alien X to make a whole new one.
      • Ben 10 Omniverse S06 - Universe vs. Tennyso
        • Ben Tennyson: Ugh. Grape flavor just doesn't taste the same ever since I used Alien X to remake the Universe.
        • Starbeard: Ben Tennyson. Did you think you would escape our notice when you utilized your Celestialsapien form, Alien X, to recreate the entire universe and everything in it?
        • Ben: I was too late to save the universe and everything in it from being destroyed, so I used Alien X to make an exact duplicate.
      • Ben 10 Omniverse - A New Dawn
        • Maltruant gives Vilgax a Chronosapien Time Bomb in the 1700s which he doesn't use till Season 6
  • Points Against:
    • Alien X being too late to stop the Anihilaarg's erasure
 
Eon even talks about the power of the Chrono Navigator not being used. Whether the power is in the body or from a device, the greatest power is still power.

ProfessorKukui4Life

Simply put, Paradox didnt know that the Navigator can cause all of existence to be destroyed when misused. And its entirely reasonable for Paradox to not know about that since, normally, the Chrono Navigator is literally just a dimensional traveling device. Far from being what is considered an offensive weapon at all.

What do you mean, Paradox didn't know about his power? He knew about his power, and he knew the consequences of not using it right.

  • Professor Paradox: Eon wants nothing less than absolute power over everything all timelines, all alternate realities everything.
  • Eo: You are a timid fool, Paradox. Just because you never took full advantage of the Chrono Navigator's power doesn't mean I shouldn't
  • Professor Paradox: Yes, but in anyone else's hands but mine it could cause irreparable damage to the time-stream or destroy all of time and causality itself.
If Paradox had a device with a power greater that Celestialsapiens, that should should have been the greatest power in the universe in the first place, but it's not. Paradox doesn't consider "absolute power over everything all timelines, all alternate realities, everything" omnipotence.
 
Well, recreating the time bomb with the universe should not scale directly to Alien X himself. Just because humans can build nuclear weapons, it does not mean that we possess such destructive capacities on our own.

The rest seems to mostly make sense though.
 
Antvasima said:
Should I add the k-word to our slur filter?
Click to expand...
The spelling with 2 f's, yes.

The similar sounding Arabic word, not sure. If you don't know Arabic, you might take it as the other word.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, recreating the time bomb with the universe should not scale directly to Alien X himself. Just because humans can build nuclear weapons, it does not mean that we possess such destructive capacities on our own.
The rest seems to mostly make sense though.
Click to expand...
However, humans make items out of already existing materials, outside their innate power. If the US makes a bomb, they connect pieces of already existing radioactive material which later convert their mass into energy. Alien X made the matter and the energy of the CTB from his own power.
 
Well, my impression was that the time bomb is more of a chain reaction kind of device, rather than one of raw power.

In any case, I do not think that we can scale between separate storylines that did not incorporate each other in that manner. I very strongly doubt that the writers remotely considered this connection and what it would infer.

Regardless, the rest seems to make sense, as I mentioned earlier.
 
Thank you for being reasonable.
 
It should be that Low 2-C is for creating/destroying a universe or beating a Low 2-C being, at least Low 2-C is for doing the previous things casually and 2-C is for more than one.
 
Agreed with Dark649. And people were talking about a K-word? I only knew of one that was a slur word against the Jews; which should obviously be blocked.
 
It seems like the derogatory term that very conservative Muslims use against non-Muslims, is independently also used against black Africans. It seems best to drop the subject though.
 
What are your opinions on Paradox's Celestialsapien statements compared to his Chrono Navigator?
 
Firestorm808 said:
What are you opinions on Paradox's Celestialsapien statements compared to his Chrono Navigator?
Click to expand...
Well my opinion is paradox not more powerful than Celestialsapiens when paradox was sent into event Horizon in Alien Force series after paradox gainted his power then he did a peace treaty with Celestialsapiens because Paradox with Navigator knows he's below Alien X that's why he made those statements.
 
I don't think this is unreasonable.

While the difference between Tiers is unquantifiable, it is mainly based on the fact that one cannot breach the 5D axis along which the Universes supposedly lie(although they may or may not depending on the Cosmology the verse follows).

But Alien X doesn't necessarily need to breach the axis to Create or Destroy multiple universes.He can just exist beyond the Universe and create or destroy Universes as he likes.

And I saw something about Alien-X being 26D.That statement is likely based on the Bosonic String Theory which was the first version of String Theory.It failed to prove quite a lot of points and it is outdated.Super String Theory and the M-theory are new and did the job better at supporting the String Theory.M-theory is better because it combines all the theories via the S and T dualities and unifies all theories into one.

Based on M-theory, the maximum number of dimensions are 11. 3 perceivable spatial dimensions + 6 Extra dimensions compressed into CP4(6 dimensional Calabi-Yau manifold)+ Time + the 11th Dimension.

But then again, the Ben 10 verse doesn't likely follow this cosmology.However Low multiversal is a very possible thing.
 
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