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Alien X Upgrade

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People are talking about why didn't Ben consider using Alien X in Ben Again. It's clearly just Plot Induced Stupidity by the writers to showcase the older and younger Bens of the episode to team up and use their time powers to go along with the episode theme of time.

Nothing in the episode implies that Alien X wouldn't have worked. Paradox simply tells Ben to use Clockwork to act now and stop Eon.

Eo: Aaaaaaaaah!

Young Wildvine: [ Grunts ]

[ Omnitrix powers down ]

Young Ben Tennyso: Professor Paradox? We're open to suggestions here!

Professor Paradox: You must anchor Eon to your respective time zones! I would suggest Clockwork!

Young Ben Tennyso: I don't have Clockwork!

Professor Paradox: Ah. Well, if activated at the same moment your two Omnitrixes might synchronize.

[ Omnitrix powers down ]

Ben Tennyso; "Might"? Some Professor you are!

Professor Paradox: Well, it's better than "won't."

Young Ben Tennyso: One...

Ben Tennyso: Two...

Both: Three!

(Both Bens transform into Clockwork)

Eo: Aaaaaaaah!

[ Bell tolls ]

[ Both Omnitrixes power down ]

Young Ben Tennyso: It worked! Wait. No. I'm still in the wrong me.

Professor Paradox: Without Eon to anchor them all, the separate eras of time are progressively snapping back into place.

Outside the writer's view, Ben doesn't consider bringing out Alien X because he knows that he'll have to waste time debating with them to do anything, and he doesn't have time to waste.

As I said before during the trial, Serena and Bellicus would continue to argue whether their lives depended on it or not. They really are that petty.

Ben: No time for banter. I'm fighting for my life here and your lives too. If Alien X loses, the whole universe is lost, permanently.

Rook Blonko: Why is Ben not defending himself?

Starbeard: His dual consciousness must deliberate and reach an agreement before Alien X can do anything.

Rook Blonko: How long will that take?

Starbeard: Eternity, give or take a few eons.

Serena: That is the most decisive Celestialsapien I've ever seen.

Bellicus: Seconded. He couldn't debate ad nauseam if his life depended on it.

Ben: Are you even listening to me? Right now, our lives and the entire universe depend on you two being a little bit decisive.

Ben: How about you two keep arguing all you want, and while you're busy doing that, let me control Alien X.

Serena: I admire your passion. Seconded.

Bellicus: I think your passion woefully misplaced. Motion denied.

Ben: See? Like that. Let me borrow the keys for Alien X for a minute to save the universe and you guys just go on having fun disagreeing on everything. Agreed?

Serena: When you put it that way, agreed.

Bellicus: I disagree that this will be fun, but if it means we can argue in peace for a bit, motion carried.

Ben: Um. A little help here?

Serena: You said you wanted to do this without us.

Bellicus: Now who's being indecisive.

Ben: Gah. You two are impossible. That Galactic Gladiator guy is so lucky. He doesn't have any trouble deciding what to do, but what if he had to make more decisions?
 
The writers had Ben use Alien X against the Rooters is to emphasize the point that Ben has "too much power" which can be seen as dangerous to everyone should he turn. Ben using Alien X is overkill in this instance when he could have just gone Atomix. This is just another example of Plot Induced Stupidity.
 
Firestorm808 said:
People are talking about why didn't Ben consider using Alien X in Ben Again. It's clearly just Plot Induced Stupidity by the writers to showcase the older and younger Bens of the episode to team up and use their time powers to go along with the episode theme of time.
Nothing in the episode implies that Alien X wouldn't have worked. Paradox simply tells Ben to use Clockwork to act now and stop Eon.
Click to expand...
And again, that is the problem here. Paradox would have never told them to use Clockwork in the first place if all Ben had to do was use Alien X. Why go with an alien that can easily fail to do the job? Why not consider using the strongest alien in your entire arsenal to stop a threat that most certainly calls for using them? Neither he or the bens ever even considered using Alien X against the Navigator and it makes absolutely no sense, unless Alien X was not strong enough to do the job.

>Outside the writer's view, Ben doesn't consider bringing out Alien X because he knows that he'll have to waste time debating with them to do anything, and he doesn't have time to waste.

For the last time, please stop using this argument. It's been debunked as nothing but pointless nonsense. Ben wouldn't have to debate Bellicus and Serena on literally anything in this situation? Why? Because Bellicus and Serena are not such morons to ignore a threat that would even destroy them. And if Ben can convince them to save a universe that has absolutely nothing to do with them, he can most definitely convince them to stop something that can kill even them.

>As I said before during the trial, Serena and Bellicus would continue to argue whether their lives depended on it or not. They really are that petty.

....This was also debunked by me earlier. Bellicus and Serena not coming to agreement to help Ben save his universe during the trial is not the same thing as not agreeing to stop something that can end all of existence. Ben's universe has nothing to do with them in the slightest. Whether it remains or gets destroyed, they could care less about it. Something that can destroy the entire Multiverse? Thats something that effects them. And while they don't easily get on the same page, they are again smart enough to use common sense and realize a threat great enough to end the both of them. Sorry if this comes off as rude, but this has been like the 10th time that i've had to repeat this point.

You can't use PIS as an argument here. Ben has been shown to be willing to use Alien X in dire situations like when facing the Annilaarg, despite the fact that he would have to get Bellicus and Serena to agree on letting him use Alien X. So he should have absolutely been willing to use Alien X against the Chrono Navigator, which is a FAR bigger threat than the Annilaargh by light years.

Not to mention, you also can't argue something is PIS without having another instance of a character doing the opposite to suggest the inconsistency is PIS. Like for example, we can say its PIS for Arceus to be injured by a meteor because he has feats that are considered Multiversal and out-weigh the inconsistency to treat it as PIS.

So in order for this to be PIS, you need another instance of Alien X being used to stop a Multiversal level threat and succeeding. And the only remote instance of this is Ben deciding to use Atomic-X to stop the Chronosapien Time Bomb, which failed miserably as he got one shotted by it. Alien X has nothing to suggest he would have worked against the Chrono Navigator.
 
> Because Bellicus and Serena are not such morons to ignore a threat that would even destroy them.

> Bellicus and Serena not coming to agreement to help Ben save his universe during the trial is not the same thing as not agreeing to stop something that can end all of existence. Ben's universe has nothing to do with them in the slightest. Whether it remains or gets destroyed, they could care less about it.

According to the trial, Alien X, Ben, and the Universe would also have been destroyed if Alien X lost the fight. They still only cared about arguing.

Ben: No time for banter. I'm fighting for my life here and your lives too. If Alien X loses, the whole universe is lost, permanently.

Ben: Are you even listening to me? Right now, our lives and the entire universe depend on you two being a little bit decisive.
 
According to the trial, Alien X, Ben, and the Universe would also have been destroyed if Alien X lost the fight. They still only cared about arguing.

Ben: No time for banter. I'm fighting for my life here and your lives too. If Alien X loses, the whole universe is lost, permanently.

Ben: Are you even listening to me? Right now, our lives and the entire universe depend on you two being a little bit decisive.

The first line is only talking about the universe Ben recreated being destroyed if Alien X loses his fight. Which makes sense because thats what the entire trial is about. Ben creating a universe without having authorization. The second line is being taken out of context. "Our lives" is clearly referring to the lives of the universe that Ben recreated, such as his, his family, his friends, etc. Bellicus and Serena's lives have nothing to do with Ben's universe.

In fact, Bellicus and Serena were even found guillty by the Celestialsapien council at the end of the episode instead of Ben, and they only got fined for their unauthorization of recreating Ben's universe. Their lives weren't on the line here.
 
Also, here's The Everlasting's opinion on few of the points being said here:

"Author intent is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if something is done to be fitting/look cool, we have to look at it from the context of the narrative."

"Firestorm's comment about Serena and Bellicus only handing control of Alien X over to Ben for a little bit also bugs me. It's clearly shown later that he still has full control anyway. And besides, considering how they're still arguing about saving the dinosaurs from extinction, it's clear that their definition of "a bit" is very different to us."
 
If Ben says that he is fighting for Serena and Bellicus' lives, the three would think that their destruction and the universe would be the punishment. When Ben says "our lives and the entire universe," he reiterrates again that Serena and Bellicus are roped into it. No one else is with him. In the context of "our," it is just the three of them. "The entire universe" by default includes all the lives in it.

The three believe they would be destroyed but the two don't care.

In regards to Ben's control. At no point in the Rooters fight did Rook say that Ben didn't ask for Full control again, just that he now had it as he was fighting.
 
Who cares if no one else is with him? Bellicus and Serena aren't inahbitants of Ben's universe, they wouldn't be destroyed along with it. Ben wasn't even going to lose Alien X itself as it was explicitly said that that if Alien X loses, Ben's universe would be the one that gets destroyed. Not Alien X.

Either way, it still doesn't matter because in the end of that episode, they were punished. Bellicus and Serena were still found guilty for creating a universe without permission and they weren't going to be destroyed at all. They were just fined for doing it without authorization. Thats it. They were never going to be destroyed.
 
The point I'm trying to make is that no statement in Ben Again or other Alien X appeaances suggests that Alien X couldn't fix an issue or that they wouldn't survive the Navigtor.

If anything, the same question could be asked about Paradox, the Chrono Navigator, and the Time Bomb. If he had a device with absolute power over every timeline, why didn't Paradox fix everythiing from the start, especially when everything is cut down to one timeline? Again, Clockwork was used to save the day.

That's just how the writers wrote the story.
 
Firestorm808 said:
If anything, the same argument could be made about Paradox and the Chrono Navigator and the Time Bomb. If he had a device with absolute power over everything, why didn't Paradox fix everythiing from the start, especially when everything is cut down to one timeline?
Click to expand...
False Equivalancy for multiple reasons.

First of all, the Chrono Navigator is literally not even supposed to be used offensively or anything aside from dimensional travel. The device is only Multiversal at all when it's explicitly misused. It's normal capabilities doesnt allow it to control universes.

Second, "Absolute power over everything" is very vague feat and context wise. All we know about the Navigator is that, when it is specifically misued, it can control and destroy universes. Thats it. Nothing says that the Navigator could be used to recreate or fix the problems that Eon caused with it. This is especially glaring when Paradox even instructed the Bens to use Clockwork to trap Eon between their time periods so that balance would be naturally restored on its own and not actively restored. This suggests that the Navigator wouldn't have been able to do that even if Paradox got it back from Eon.

Third, this is the same Paradox who for the life of him wouldn't misuse the Navigator to do anything like that at all. Unlike Ben being willing to use Alien X, and being blatantly show to be willing to use Alien X, Paradox isn't willing to use the Navigator for anything aside from freely traveling through dimensions, like how the Navigator is supposed to be used. Even when Paradox had his hand cut off, got captured, and then interrogated in another dimension by Eon, he still wasn't willing to use the Navigator to stop him.

Fourth, "fix everything from the start" would imply that Paradox would have known what Eon was planning to do from the very beginning. Which is ridiculous since if that were the case, Paradox would have never kept the Navigator literally on his perso for Eon to take after kidnapping him.

Fifth, just because one holds the Chrono Navigator does not necessarily mean that they have absolute control over what it would do to the Multiverse. The only thing that we know for a fact can be freely done with it is travel through different universes and time periods. There isn't any significant evidence that actually confirms the wielder of the Chrono Navigator would in fact gain absolute control over the Multiverse. Remember, Paradox said that Eon was trying to gain absolute control over everything. Not that he would factually would gain control. And considering the fact that Paradox was warning Eon to stop what he was doing or else existence would be destroyed as a result of his actions, Eon did not have control over the misused Navigator and likely would have destroyed himself along with everything else.

Sixth, it is implied by Paradox himself that he cannot misuse the Chrono Navigator, even if he somehow wanted to. He explicitly says to Eon that if the Navigator is in anyone else's hands but his ow, then all of existence would be destroyed from it's misuse.

Professor Paradox: Yes, but in anyone else's hands but mine it could cause irreparable damage to the time-stream or destroy all of time and causality itself.
 
I have to go to bed now because of college tomorrow, so I will get back to this later and respond to any responses/rebuttals/counter arguments to my points.

Good night everyone.
 
> First of all, the Chrono Navigator is literally not even supposed to be used offensively or anything aside from dimensional travel. The device is only Multiversal at all when it's explicitly misused. It's normal capabilities doesnt allow it to control universes.

No one said it was a weapon, and it doesn't even matter in the first place. Power is power. Influence on the world around you. The Navigator at full potential is multiversal for for giving absolute control over all timelines. Eon can anchor timelines to himself and move them out of place. With said influence over all the timelines, the user runs the risk of destroying all of them as well. It's possible for someone to use it at it's full potential, be multiversal, and not cause everything to be destroyed. In the same episode, Paradox distinctly differentiates "maybe" and "won't" for Clockwork synchronization

  • Professor Paradox: Eon wants nothing less than absolute power over everything, all timelines, all alternate realities, everything.
  • Eo: You are a timid fool, Paradox. Just because you never took full advantage of the Chrono Navigator's power doesn't mean I shouldn't
  • Professor Paradox: Yes, but in anyone else's hands but mine it could cause irreparable damage to the time-stream or destroy all of time and causality itself.
  • Eo: Merely the key to dominion over all space and time. And thanks to you, It is now mine! [ Laughs evilly ] It's amazing. Every time-line, every alternate reality, I can see them all and they're all mine!
As I said before, Professor Paradox consistantly considers this power inferior to that of the Celestialsapiens.

Bellicus and Serena were even about to destroy Paradox and his Chrono Navigator if he did not get out of the 500 light year restraining order in time. If what you said about the Time Bomb having 2-B durability is true, the same could be said about the Chrono Navigator.
 
> Second, "Absolute power over everything" is very vague feat and context wise. All we know about the Navigator is that, when it is specifically misued, it can control and destroy universes. Thats it. Nothing says that the Navigator could be used to recreate or fix the problems that Eon caused with it. This is especially glaring when Paradox even instructed the Bens to use Clockwork to trap Eon between their time periods so that balance would be naturally restored on its own and not actively restored. This suggests that the Navigator wouldn't have been able to do that even if Paradox got it back from Eon.

Eon was using the Navigator to literally anchor timelines to himself to destroy everything. While things were moving back into place naturally, there's no reason to say that the Navigator couldn't have set them back in place as well.

> Third, this is the same Paradox who for the life of him wouldn't misuse the Navigator to do anything like that at all. Unlike Ben being willing to use Alien X, and being blatantly shown to be willing to use Alien X, Paradox isn't willing to use the Navigator for anything aside from freely traveling through dimensions, like how the Navigator is supposed to be used. Even when Paradox had his hand cut off, got captured, and then interrogated in another dimension by Eon, he still wasn't willing to use the Navigator to stop him.

For the same reason Paradox chooses not to use his Navigator like that, Ben doesn't want to use Alien X unless its a last resort, outside of PIS with the Rooters. Ben conveniently uses his most powerful alien and starts being evil-ish when Servantis starts saying he's evil. Manny and the others are his friends. Even if they are mind controlled, why make them fight eachother and what not. He could have just gotten rid of the mind control with his powers. That's PIS and out of character for him.

He didn't want to use Alien X ever since X = Ben + 2 all the way to Forge of Creation. He didn't intend to use Alien X for the Aniahlarg, and he needed to use Alien X to fight another Celestialsapien.
 
> Fourth, "fix everything from the start" would imply that Paradox would have known what Eon was planning to do from the very beginning. Which is ridiculous since if that were the case, Paradox would have never kept the Navigator literally on his person for Eon to take after kidnapping him.

I'm referring to the aftermath of the Chronosapien Time Bomb. He could have used his Chrono Navigator to get the timelines branching again, but he chose to have Ben reboot the timeline branches manually.

> Fifth, just because one holds the Chrono Navigator does not necessarily mean that they have absolute control over what it would do to the Multiverse. The only thing that we know for a fact can be freely done with it is travel through different universes and time periods. There isn't any significant evidence that actually confirms the wielder of the Chrono Navigator would in fact gain absolute control over the Multiverse. Remember, Paradox said that Eon was trying to gain absolute control over everything. Not that he would factually would gain control. And considering the fact that Paradox was warning Eon to stop what he was doing or else existence would be destroyed as a result of his actions, Eon did not have control over the misused Navigator and likely would have destroyed himself along with everything else.

Eon was actively anchoring timelines to himself only to start destroy everything. The Navigator can literally move timelines. They had to be settled back into place afterward. There is no reason that someone properly using it could do more.

Professor Paradox: Careful, children! Crossing over the time warps can have disastrous consequences!

Eo: What is this, Time Walker? You tricked me!

Professor Paradox: On the contrary, I warned you. Stop this now or all of existence will be destroyed!

Eo: No! If I cannot rule the Cosmos then I will be the one to destroy it!

> Sixth, it is implied by Paradox himself that he cannot misuse the Chrono Navigator, even if he somehow wanted to. He explicitly says to Eon that if the Navigator is in anyone else's hands but his own, then all of existence would be destroyed from it's misuse.

That's not what Paradox said. He never mentioned that he can't use it at full potential. He chooses not to. As shown above, Paradox said that a person could destroy everything. Someone using it without issue is still possible.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Also, here's The Everlasting's opinion on few of the points being said here:

"Author intent is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if something is done to be fitting/look cool, we have to look at it from the context of the narrative."
Click to expand...
Being done to look cool won't invalidate in-universe explanations if they exist. But if instead of the narrative itself giving an explanation you have someone inserting their own explanation into the narrative then that's another matter

The problem is that you're taking Alien X not being mentioned in a situation as evidence that Ben didn't think Alien X was powerful enough to solve the situation, when the simple fact is that the episode just never bothered to reference Alien X or tie in his existence to the plot. Belicus and Serena being willing to allow usage of Alien X, Ben understanding this and being prepared to use Alien X, and Ben concluding Alien X wasn't powerful enough to fix the situation, all of this literally comes from an absence of Alien X in the episode. This isn't judging context and narrative, it's just making up explanations when an official answer isn't given

why certain plot devices don't get involved in a plot line doesn't always have an in universe explanation, and it's better to not assume they have when what you're working with is the absence of an explanation
 
@Firestorm

I do not remember, but I think that Andy is for an upgrade to 2-B.

You can check through the responses from staff members here to keep count if you wish.
 
Is the 2-B downgrade already accepted tho? Because while I don't have a problem with it, that's not what the current rating for the navigator is
 
What are the arguments for 2-A and what are the ones for 2-B?
 
@Andy

Since this is a long thread, would you be willing to start a new one with a summary in the beginning regarding the discussion so far, and then invite other staff members to take part?
 
Well, there are other things not related to this revision I would like to work on if I have the time, so not sure
 
From what I gather (correct me if I'm wrong)

  • Supports scaling to the Navigator and/or CTB: Andy
  • Supports not scaling to the Navigator and/or CTB: DDM
Just gonna point out that DDM said this 6 days ago, ie before another 2 days of debate.
 
Well, you should ask him to comment here again then.
 
Sorry, ive been busy but have free time now. Im going to post rebuttals for the above arguments. Is a new thread going to be made or is this one staying?
 
If I can suggest it, should it be a staff only thread with Firestorm and myself being able to participate?

This topic regarding Alien X has been brought up very repeatedly to the point where multiple threads get made about the same thing over and over again. That, and Firestorm and I are the main contributors to this discussion with everyone else just agreeing with whos argument makes more sense in their eyes.
 
The Time Bomb topic was discussed repeatedly, the Navigator topic may have been brought up more than once but I don't believe it spawned threads after threads like the Time Bomb
 
I suppose that I would be fine with Kukui's suggestion, but it isn't just up to me to decide.
 
I don't have any serious opposition either way. I just don't think it's necessary when the arguments aren't about the infamous time bomb scaling
 
Well, we don't seem to get anywhere with this discussion, so further staff input may be required.
 
Thank you very much for the help.
 
@Firestorm Before creating the thread I would like to ask, do I just keep the arguments focused on the Chrononavigator scaling? The Time Bomb one doesn't seem to be a main point anymore and has been refuted far more extensively than this justification anyway

I don't plan to make the staff read the entirety of the thread since a lot of it is irrelevant to the actual proposals, I was wondering if the discussion about the time bomb also needs to be presented as part of the relevant discussion or if it should be taken to begin from the Navigator topic onwards
 
It is probably best to explain all of it, but in a concise and easily understood manner.
 
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