-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Alien X Upgrade
- Thread starter ÖzkanDemir
- Start date
- Status
- 16,960
- 4,860
Back. Going to post some rebuttals now.
>Serena: Oh, look, Belicus. Ben Tennyson has come to visit us again. *snip*
Im going to repeat what I said earlier before this. It doesn't matter what Bellicus said about "the universe and everything in it is destroyed" because what is actually shown to us takes priority over what is stated. And we are blatantly shown that the universe was not completely destroyed yet by the Annilaargh. So unless Bellicus's statement is being taken out of context, it is hyperbole and simply just wrong.
>Professor Paradox and Azmuth repeatedly call the Celestialsapiens the "greatest power in the universe." Paradox goes as far to say they are omnipotent, meaning the strongest power he's ever seen which includes his Chrono Navigator.
I've already dealt with this. "Greatest power in the universe" statements only go so far without explicit actual evidence of being such, and we certainly do not automatically apply this to weaponry or any power that is independant from a character's actual stats, especially when said weaponry cannot be normally used for tier 2 purposes anyway. And this is not even considering the context of what "greatest power" is actually referring to. One of Paradoxes statements even goes as far as to suggest this is not talking about raw power, but the abilities of Celestialsapiens:
Paradox: It is the source of the universe's greatest power. It's where ideas become real.
Pay attention to what I bolded out. "Ideas becoming real" is pointing to Paradox talking about celestialsapien's hax abilities instead of their raw strength. Which is not entirely far-fetched since celestialsapiens are casual reality warpers and are capable of a multitude of different abilities. So while im not pushing for this argument, it does need to be kept in mind when taking full context into account.
Also, saying they are omnipotent is an obvious hyperbolic term to just call them very powerful god like creatures. People need to stop using this as an argument like its meant to be literal.
>If Paradox had a device with a power greater that Celestialsapiens, that should should have been the greatest power in the universe in the first place, but it's not. Paradox doesn't consider "absolute power over everything all timelines, all alternate realities, everything" omnipotence.
Its not the greatest power in the first place because the device was specifically built not to be in the first place. Again, the Navigator isnt regularly 2-B and is not even meant to be a weapon in the first place. It is only a weapon when it is purposely misued to do something it was originally built not to do. Why do you think Paradox constantly kept it with him and never took full advantage of it? Because it's not meant to be used as a weapon to that extent. Under normal circumstances, it is just a dimensional traveling device. Alien X being above a device meant to only do a simple reality traveling feat is pretty reasonable. Paradox never even attempted to explore what the Navigator can do out of its normal purposes fearing, clearly fearing what would happen to existence if he did, so there is no reason to assume his statement about Alien X having the greatest power would reflect on this when Paradox never used the Navigator in that way.
There's also something else that doesn't add up either. In the "Ben Again" episode with Eon and the Chrono Navigator, Ben never considers using Alien X as an option to stop Eon from misuing the Navigator. And neither does Paradox. Paradox explicitly instructs Teen and Younger Ben to use Clockwork to send Eon outside of both their points in time and trap him there so that balance would be restored. Why would neither of them even consider using Alien X if he was superior to the Navigators power?
And before someone hits me with the good ol "he needs Bellicus and Serena's permission", that isnt going to fly on this point. Because for one, "Ben Again" is an episode that happens much after the episode in Season 1 where Ben was blatantly willing to use Alien X and try to get permission to use him (Ben Again is a Season 2 episode), so Ben when facing the Navigator should have been completely willing to use Alien X if he was an actual option to stop it at all. If he's willing to use him to try and save a single universe, trying to use him to save all of existence is perfectly willingful.
And even IF there was an issue with getting to use Alien X, Bellicus and Serena are not idiots. They are not such morons that they would fail to recognize something that can destroy even them. So even with the benefit of the doubt, Ben still would have been able to use Alien X to stop Eon if Alien X even could in the first place.
>Serena: Oh, look, Belicus. Ben Tennyson has come to visit us again. *snip*
Im going to repeat what I said earlier before this. It doesn't matter what Bellicus said about "the universe and everything in it is destroyed" because what is actually shown to us takes priority over what is stated. And we are blatantly shown that the universe was not completely destroyed yet by the Annilaargh. So unless Bellicus's statement is being taken out of context, it is hyperbole and simply just wrong.
>Professor Paradox and Azmuth repeatedly call the Celestialsapiens the "greatest power in the universe." Paradox goes as far to say they are omnipotent, meaning the strongest power he's ever seen which includes his Chrono Navigator.
I've already dealt with this. "Greatest power in the universe" statements only go so far without explicit actual evidence of being such, and we certainly do not automatically apply this to weaponry or any power that is independant from a character's actual stats, especially when said weaponry cannot be normally used for tier 2 purposes anyway. And this is not even considering the context of what "greatest power" is actually referring to. One of Paradoxes statements even goes as far as to suggest this is not talking about raw power, but the abilities of Celestialsapiens:
Paradox: It is the source of the universe's greatest power. It's where ideas become real.
Pay attention to what I bolded out. "Ideas becoming real" is pointing to Paradox talking about celestialsapien's hax abilities instead of their raw strength. Which is not entirely far-fetched since celestialsapiens are casual reality warpers and are capable of a multitude of different abilities. So while im not pushing for this argument, it does need to be kept in mind when taking full context into account.
Also, saying they are omnipotent is an obvious hyperbolic term to just call them very powerful god like creatures. People need to stop using this as an argument like its meant to be literal.
>If Paradox had a device with a power greater that Celestialsapiens, that should should have been the greatest power in the universe in the first place, but it's not. Paradox doesn't consider "absolute power over everything all timelines, all alternate realities, everything" omnipotence.
Its not the greatest power in the first place because the device was specifically built not to be in the first place. Again, the Navigator isnt regularly 2-B and is not even meant to be a weapon in the first place. It is only a weapon when it is purposely misued to do something it was originally built not to do. Why do you think Paradox constantly kept it with him and never took full advantage of it? Because it's not meant to be used as a weapon to that extent. Under normal circumstances, it is just a dimensional traveling device. Alien X being above a device meant to only do a simple reality traveling feat is pretty reasonable. Paradox never even attempted to explore what the Navigator can do out of its normal purposes fearing, clearly fearing what would happen to existence if he did, so there is no reason to assume his statement about Alien X having the greatest power would reflect on this when Paradox never used the Navigator in that way.
There's also something else that doesn't add up either. In the "Ben Again" episode with Eon and the Chrono Navigator, Ben never considers using Alien X as an option to stop Eon from misuing the Navigator. And neither does Paradox. Paradox explicitly instructs Teen and Younger Ben to use Clockwork to send Eon outside of both their points in time and trap him there so that balance would be restored. Why would neither of them even consider using Alien X if he was superior to the Navigators power?
And before someone hits me with the good ol "he needs Bellicus and Serena's permission", that isnt going to fly on this point. Because for one, "Ben Again" is an episode that happens much after the episode in Season 1 where Ben was blatantly willing to use Alien X and try to get permission to use him (Ben Again is a Season 2 episode), so Ben when facing the Navigator should have been completely willing to use Alien X if he was an actual option to stop it at all. If he's willing to use him to try and save a single universe, trying to use him to save all of existence is perfectly willingful.
And even IF there was an issue with getting to use Alien X, Bellicus and Serena are not idiots. They are not such morons that they would fail to recognize something that can destroy even them. So even with the benefit of the doubt, Ben still would have been able to use Alien X to stop Eon if Alien X even could in the first place.
- 16,960
- 4,860
What do you think about the new stuff I brought Ant? The last 3 paragraphs of my reply?Antvasima said:
- 7,550
- 7,738
The reason why Ben doesn't use Alien X against Eon is that he wouldn't be able to get Serena and Bellicus to agree.
Bellicus: Serena. Fine, but the next time the universe and everything in it is destroyed, don't come crying to me.
Ben could barely get them to agree during the trial fight.
Bellicus: Serena. Fine, but the next time the universe and everything in it is destroyed, don't come crying to me.
Ben could barely get them to agree during the trial fight.
- 7,550
- 7,738
Even during the trial, Bellicus and Serena disagreed when their life depended on it.
Ben: No time for banter. I'm fighting for my life here and your lives too. If Alien X loses, the whole universe is lost, permanently.
Rook Blonko: Why is Ben not defending himself?
Starbeard: His dual consciousness must deliberate and reach an agreement before Alien X can do anything.
Rook Blonko: How long will that take?
Starbeard: Eternity, give or take a few eons.
Serena: That is the most decisive Celestialsapien I've ever seen.
Bellicus: Seconded. We couldn't debate abnosia if life depended on it.
Ben: Are you even listening to me? Right now, our lives and the entire universe depend on you two being a little bit decisive.
Ben: No time for banter. I'm fighting for my life here and your lives too. If Alien X loses, the whole universe is lost, permanently.
Rook Blonko: Why is Ben not defending himself?
Starbeard: His dual consciousness must deliberate and reach an agreement before Alien X can do anything.
Rook Blonko: How long will that take?
Starbeard: Eternity, give or take a few eons.
Serena: That is the most decisive Celestialsapien I've ever seen.
Bellicus: Seconded. We couldn't debate abnosia if life depended on it.
Ben: Are you even listening to me? Right now, our lives and the entire universe depend on you two being a little bit decisive.
- 7,550
- 7,738
Again, power is power. Just because someone doesn't use it to it's full potential doesn't mean the power isn't there. The Omnitrix was designed as a communications device, but the power can be used as a weapon. The same can be said about the Chrono Navigator.
Why would Aggregor go after the Celestialsapiens instead of Paradox if he had the Map of Infinity to follow Paradox? He can absorb all sorts of energy. It's because the Celestialsapiens have the greatest power in comparison. Celestialsapiens can go to any timeline they desire, as shown with Starbeard going to Ben's timeline and any others that violate the multiverse preservation act.
Why would Aggregor go after the Celestialsapiens instead of Paradox if he had the Map of Infinity to follow Paradox? He can absorb all sorts of energy. It's because the Celestialsapiens have the greatest power in comparison. Celestialsapiens can go to any timeline they desire, as shown with Starbeard going to Ben's timeline and any others that violate the multiverse preservation act.
- 16,960
- 4,860
The difference between what happened in "Universe vs Tennyson" (which btw, happened AFTER "Ben Again") and what happened with Eon and the Chrono Navigator is that the former was only something that risked destroying just Bens universe. Something Bellicus and Serena could care less about as it doesn't effect them in the slightest whatsoever.
The latter is a threat to all of existence, something that would very much so threaten to kill them. While Bellicus and Serena are not so easily made to be on the same page, they are more than so capable of using common sense to not be idotic enough to disagree in stopping something that would destroy the both of them. No matter how much you want to slice this up.
Besides, them agreeing or disagreeing doesn't even shut down most of my point. Even if there was a good chance that they wouldnt agree to help him, Ben was still willing to use Alien X to stop the Annilaargh. He knew what could have happened and still chose to go with Alien X. So there is absolutely no reason why he wouldnt do the same thing against something that is far more threatening.
The latter is a threat to all of existence, something that would very much so threaten to kill them. While Bellicus and Serena are not so easily made to be on the same page, they are more than so capable of using common sense to not be idotic enough to disagree in stopping something that would destroy the both of them. No matter how much you want to slice this up.
Besides, them agreeing or disagreeing doesn't even shut down most of my point. Even if there was a good chance that they wouldnt agree to help him, Ben was still willing to use Alien X to stop the Annilaargh. He knew what could have happened and still chose to go with Alien X. So there is absolutely no reason why he wouldnt do the same thing against something that is far more threatening.
- 7,550
- 7,738
Going back to Ben and Eon, it's for the sake of plot that Clockwork was used because of the time theme.
- 7,550
- 7,738
As Paradox said, the full potential of his Chrono Navigator can give absolute power over everything all timelines, all alternate realities, everything. However, if the user isn't careful, it can also destroy everything.
- 167,862
- 76,482
It seems to have likely been Plot-Induced Stupidity, yes. Otherwise Ben would use Alien X to far too easily solve virtually any problem.
- 2,334
- 326
What ups Alien X Thread?
- 7,413
- 3,301
It doesn't matter how casually he recreated the universe. The difference between Low 2-C and 2-C is ludicrous.ÖzkanDemir said:
No 2-C feats? Then no 2-C rating.
- 7,550
- 7,738
@Soldier Blue
The current discussion is scaling Alien X by Professor Paradox's statements.
The current discussion is scaling Alien X by Professor Paradox's statements.
- 7,413
- 3,301
I'm still reading through those commentsFirestorm808 said:
- 7,550
- 7,738
Ah, okay.
- 8,846
- 9,507
@Soldier I'm not tryna sound rude or anything, and I get you have to read comments to catch up, but was that really necessary? He's already been told multiple times by everyone and their mother and they even stopped talking about it days ago. Wouldn't you think he got the message?
Again I'm not trying to be rude in anyway, it's just a pet peeve I have because I see it in other threads.
Again I'm not trying to be rude in anyway, it's just a pet peeve I have because I see it in other threads.
- 10,758
- 6,491
There is a point against the upgrade I will try to address
"Im going to repeat what I said earlier before this. It doesn't matter what Bellicus said about "the universe and everything in it is destroyed" because what is actually shown to us takes priority over what is stated. And we are blatantly shown that the universe was not completely destroyed yet by the Annilaargh. So unless Bellicus's statement is being taken out of context, it is hyperbole and simply just wrong."
What is shown are a couple of dark patches expanding within the Alien X dimension, a place whose functioning hasn't exactly been explained properly. The idea that these patches will continue to expand as long as the universe isn't destroyed fully, which seems to be the assumption you're making, isn't a blatant fact, it's only an interpretation.
Maybe it resembling the anhilaarg effect seems to be enough proof for you but, it is at best only a representation of the destruction, since for it to be the actual destruction the entire universe that was being destroyed would literally have to be housed within the Alien X dimension and I am not sure there's any good basis for assuming that, if there is feel free to tell me
Another important point is that this effect was happening right in front of Serena and Belicus and we as viewers had no additional information or context to judge what it meant that the two of them also wouldn't logically have. They saw what was happening and didn't consider it proof that the universe was only in the process of being destroyed, so I don't see how we can say they're wrong when that would mean they didn't understand the significance of something that was happening right within the dimension they lived in and which they would be able to easily link with was happening to the actual universe but we somehow do.
And the hyperbole bit is just wrong. A hyperbole is an intentional exaggeration to convey a point, this is them using past tense to convey something having already happened. The concept of hyperbole isn't remotely applicable here
"Im going to repeat what I said earlier before this. It doesn't matter what Bellicus said about "the universe and everything in it is destroyed" because what is actually shown to us takes priority over what is stated. And we are blatantly shown that the universe was not completely destroyed yet by the Annilaargh. So unless Bellicus's statement is being taken out of context, it is hyperbole and simply just wrong."
What is shown are a couple of dark patches expanding within the Alien X dimension, a place whose functioning hasn't exactly been explained properly. The idea that these patches will continue to expand as long as the universe isn't destroyed fully, which seems to be the assumption you're making, isn't a blatant fact, it's only an interpretation.
Maybe it resembling the anhilaarg effect seems to be enough proof for you but, it is at best only a representation of the destruction, since for it to be the actual destruction the entire universe that was being destroyed would literally have to be housed within the Alien X dimension and I am not sure there's any good basis for assuming that, if there is feel free to tell me
Another important point is that this effect was happening right in front of Serena and Belicus and we as viewers had no additional information or context to judge what it meant that the two of them also wouldn't logically have. They saw what was happening and didn't consider it proof that the universe was only in the process of being destroyed, so I don't see how we can say they're wrong when that would mean they didn't understand the significance of something that was happening right within the dimension they lived in and which they would be able to easily link with was happening to the actual universe but we somehow do.
And the hyperbole bit is just wrong. A hyperbole is an intentional exaggeration to convey a point, this is them using past tense to convey something having already happened. The concept of hyperbole isn't remotely applicable here
- 16,960
- 4,860
>What is shown are a couple of dark patches expanding within the Alien X dimension, a place whose functioning hasn't exactly been explained properly. The idea that these patches will continue to expand as long as the universe isn't destroyed fully, which seems to be the assumption you're making, isn't a blatant fact, it's only an interpretation.
In normal cases, i'd be more inclined to agree with this. But in the context of this situation, that isnt the case. Because not only does Ben say that the universe was still in the process of being destroyed, Serena even made a comment on how it was sad for them to see the universe's inhabitants being destroyed while those dark patches continue to destroy everything. Again, how can you see something be destroyed if it was already destroyed prior? This is a question I asked already that no one else answered before btw.
Besides, those dark patches are exactly the same as the one the Annilaargh unleashed to destroy Ben's universe. Why try and make more assumptions about what these dark patches were than what was already shown to us on-screen? Occams Razor is a thing.
>Maybe it resembling the anhilaarg effect seems to be enough proof for you but, it is at best only a representation of the destruction, since for it to be the actual destruction the entire universe that was being destroyed would literally have to be housed within the Alien X dimension and I am not sure there's any good basis for assuming that, if there is feel free to tell me
Or, simply, they were watching the prime universe be destroyed while Ben was inside of Alien X. What says that the universe's destruction had to be housed within Alien X's dimension? Nothing implies that this is even has a basis to be a possibility.
>so I don't see how we can say they're wrong when that would mean they didn't understand the significance of something that was happening right within the dimension they lived in and which they would be able to easily link with was happening to the actual universe but we somehow do.
But...it wasn't happening within their universe. That is the problem with your point here. Nothing remotely suggests that Alien X's dimension, the one where Bellicus and Serena live, was being affected by the Annilaargh's feat. The opposite of it is implied actually given the fact that Alien X was completely unaffected by the Annilaargh and couldnt even be scratched by it, which makes it unlikely that the dimension he is housing would be effected by it as well.
In normal cases, i'd be more inclined to agree with this. But in the context of this situation, that isnt the case. Because not only does Ben say that the universe was still in the process of being destroyed, Serena even made a comment on how it was sad for them to see the universe's inhabitants being destroyed while those dark patches continue to destroy everything. Again, how can you see something be destroyed if it was already destroyed prior? This is a question I asked already that no one else answered before btw.
Besides, those dark patches are exactly the same as the one the Annilaargh unleashed to destroy Ben's universe. Why try and make more assumptions about what these dark patches were than what was already shown to us on-screen? Occams Razor is a thing.
>Maybe it resembling the anhilaarg effect seems to be enough proof for you but, it is at best only a representation of the destruction, since for it to be the actual destruction the entire universe that was being destroyed would literally have to be housed within the Alien X dimension and I am not sure there's any good basis for assuming that, if there is feel free to tell me
Or, simply, they were watching the prime universe be destroyed while Ben was inside of Alien X. What says that the universe's destruction had to be housed within Alien X's dimension? Nothing implies that this is even has a basis to be a possibility.
>so I don't see how we can say they're wrong when that would mean they didn't understand the significance of something that was happening right within the dimension they lived in and which they would be able to easily link with was happening to the actual universe but we somehow do.
But...it wasn't happening within their universe. That is the problem with your point here. Nothing remotely suggests that Alien X's dimension, the one where Bellicus and Serena live, was being affected by the Annilaargh's feat. The opposite of it is implied actually given the fact that Alien X was completely unaffected by the Annilaargh and couldnt even be scratched by it, which makes it unlikely that the dimension he is housing would be effected by it as well.
- 16,960
- 4,860
That isn't what im arguing here Ant. No one is saying that Ben would use Alien X on a whim to solve any problem he comes across, or else there would be no conflict to advance the story. That is obvious PIS.Antvasima said:
What I am saying here is that Ben would in fact use Alien X when the moment actually calls for him to be called forth, which is what we're dealing with here regarding the Chrono Navigator. Plot Induced Stupidity can't be used as an excuse in this case as we are blatantly shown that Ben is willing to try and use Alien X when the situation is big enough to force him to go to those extremes, even if theres a chance Bellicus and Serena wouldn't give him permission. Just like when facing the Annilaargh, Ben knew he had to convince them to give him permission to use Alien X. And he still chose to go with him anyway.
Why would Ben be willing to use Alien X to stop a single universe from being destroyed, but then suddenly not even consider using him to stop something that can destroy all of existence? Not just Ben, but Paradox as well? It would have been far more easier to convince Bellicus and Serena to stop a threat that is FAR bigger than the Annilaargh, and like I pointed out above, Bellicus and Serena are not such morons that they would ignore a threat thats strong enough to destroy even them.
No matter how you slice this up, Ben had absolutely no excuse to not try and go with Alien X against the Navigator, unless Alien X is weaker than it.
- 10,758
- 6,491
>But...it wasn't happening within their universe. That is the problem with your point here. Nothing remotely suggests that Alien X's dimension, the one where Bellicus and Serena live, was being affected by the Annilaargh's feat
That doesn't matter to the actual point, Serena and Belecus were witnessing the same thing as us but didn't interpret it as the universe only being in the process of destruction, and even if didn't happen within the alien x dimension, that fact would remain. It's also not a stretch to assume they would know more about what it signified than us, since the audience got exactly zero information about the sequence the two of them also wouldn't have
It doesn't make a lot of sense to conclude that their statement is wrong when you are basing it off of something happening that both were perfectly aware of, and which the audience would not be in any better of a position to draw conclusions from than the two of them were
That doesn't matter to the actual point, Serena and Belecus were witnessing the same thing as us but didn't interpret it as the universe only being in the process of destruction, and even if didn't happen within the alien x dimension, that fact would remain. It's also not a stretch to assume they would know more about what it signified than us, since the audience got exactly zero information about the sequence the two of them also wouldn't have
It doesn't make a lot of sense to conclude that their statement is wrong when you are basing it off of something happening that both were perfectly aware of, and which the audience would not be in any better of a position to draw conclusions from than the two of them were
- 31,462
- 34,325
I think Andy is making sense here.
- 167,862
- 76,482
I suppose that Kukui makes sense about the Plot-Induced Stupidity. Never mind then.
- 16,960
- 4,860
>That doesn't matter to the actual point, Serena and Belecus were witnessing the same thing as us but didn't interpret it as the universe only being in the process of destruction, and even if didn't happen within the alien x dimension, that fact would remain. It's also not a stretch to assume they would know more about what it signified than us, since the audience got exactly zero information about the sequence the two of them also wouldn't have
Which goes right back to my point that Serena and Bellicus can just simply be...wrong. Just because they interpreted the events differently than us and otherwise, doesn't mean that their word has more priority over what is directly shown to be happening. Which is why we take what is shown on screen to be more important than what is actually said during the scene.
>It doesn't make a lot of sense to conclude that their statement is wrong when you are basing it off of something happening that both were perfectly aware of, and which the audience would not be in any better of a position to draw conclusions from than the two of them were.
See above as its pretty much the same thing. They interpretted it differently? Okay. Doesn't mean that they are factually correct. Adding to this, this last point can be flipped right back around too. We can also say it doesn't make sense for our conclusion to be wrong when we are also perfectly aware of what was happening (the universe's destruction) and neither Bellicus or Serena were in any better position to hold priority over our conclusion of the events.
This is basically an out-of-universe interpretation vs an in-universe interpretation of the events.
Which goes right back to my point that Serena and Bellicus can just simply be...wrong. Just because they interpreted the events differently than us and otherwise, doesn't mean that their word has more priority over what is directly shown to be happening. Which is why we take what is shown on screen to be more important than what is actually said during the scene.
>It doesn't make a lot of sense to conclude that their statement is wrong when you are basing it off of something happening that both were perfectly aware of, and which the audience would not be in any better of a position to draw conclusions from than the two of them were.
See above as its pretty much the same thing. They interpretted it differently? Okay. Doesn't mean that they are factually correct. Adding to this, this last point can be flipped right back around too. We can also say it doesn't make sense for our conclusion to be wrong when we are also perfectly aware of what was happening (the universe's destruction) and neither Bellicus or Serena were in any better position to hold priority over our conclusion of the events.
This is basically an out-of-universe interpretation vs an in-universe interpretation of the events.
- 7,413
- 3,301
Nah. You're completely right. I guess I was in the wrong.
- 10,758
- 6,491
Ben never specifically chose Alien X, he remarked on how he wanted an alien that could deactivate the anhilaarg and just took his chances with the omnitrix, this time bring lucky enough to get Alien X.ProfessorKukui4Life said:
And one of the instances where he used Alien X was just to fight against the rooter kids, not exactly a big enough situation to require using him. Him not using Alien X in situations where he would be useful isn't a decision to only save him for the most important stuff, it's pure plot convinience
And as for having no excuse, he was asked to use Clockwork by Paradox,so if another alien could already fix the situation why it would be necessary to use Alien X
- 7,413
- 3,301
This actually makes a lot of sense to me.ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Ayewale
He/Him- 1,070
- 788
Are we arguing that Serena and Bellicus are wrong? That seems extremely unlikely. Celestialsapiens were stated by Dwayne McDuffie to be at least Tens of thousands of years old, which would be the age of Serena and Bellicus. They also recreated the entirety of the universe, meaning they must at least be aware of all the contents within that universe. They would be extremely intelligent beings. In the Ben-10 verse they would be approaching Nigh-Omniscient, on a general scale for fighters still very intelligent.ProfessorKukui4Life said:
- 13,587
- 5,754
@Omimi
I don't think anyone is saying Clockwork's time manip is better than Alien X's, just that it is able to do the job so why go Alien X and have to deal with arguing over doing the action with better time mamop when you can just get it done with just what is needed.
I don't think anyone is saying Clockwork's time manip is better than Alien X's, just that it is able to do the job so why go Alien X and have to deal with arguing over doing the action with better time mamop when you can just get it done with just what is needed.
- 10,758
- 6,491
>Which goes right... to be more important than what is actually said during the scene.
And to decide what's actually shown in the scene, you have to make interpretation, which you insist Serena and Belecus are wrong about but don't acknowledge that it could be you that are wrong about
Unless the two of them are blind or know less about the effect than us, we can't act like we are accurately concluding what was shown while two characters who had the chance to see the exact same thing we did were wrong
>See... to hold priority over our conclusion of the events
We saw a few dark patches expanding that resembled the effect of superdevice that was only introduced in the same episode. They saw the same thing plus were likely aware of the device's power for a longer period of time given how unsurprised they were by its effect, plus have enough knowledge of the universe to contribute in rebuilding every single detail of the universe from scratch. You tell me how accurate it is to conclude we would have an equally good idea of what was happening
And to decide what's actually shown in the scene, you have to make interpretation, which you insist Serena and Belecus are wrong about but don't acknowledge that it could be you that are wrong about
Unless the two of them are blind or know less about the effect than us, we can't act like we are accurately concluding what was shown while two characters who had the chance to see the exact same thing we did were wrong
>See... to hold priority over our conclusion of the events
We saw a few dark patches expanding that resembled the effect of superdevice that was only introduced in the same episode. They saw the same thing plus were likely aware of the device's power for a longer period of time given how unsurprised they were by its effect, plus have enough knowledge of the universe to contribute in rebuilding every single detail of the universe from scratch. You tell me how accurate it is to conclude we would have an equally good idea of what was happening
- 10,758
- 6,491
@Omni The argument was that there was "absolutely no excuse for not using Alien x" which is what I tried to refute, since this was a problem that was able to be solved without Alien X's intervention
- 16,960
- 4,860
>Ben never specifically chose Alien X, he remarked on how he wanted an alien that could deactivate the anhilaarg and just took his chances with the omnitrix, this time bring lucky enough to get Alien X.
Pretty sure that this isnt luck based but the Omnitrix using it's failsafe. After all, the Omnitrix is able to give Ben an alien to stop a specific situation he is facing even if Ben doesn't actively choose a specific alien he wants to use.
But assuming im wrong and your right, lets say Ben did choose Alien X out of pure luck. Then what? The next time Ben faces a threat that is FAR bigger than what he previously faced with the Annilaargh, he isn't going to even consider using the Alien that got him out of the mess he was in before? The strongest Alien he has in his whole arsenal? That makes no sense. So even with the luck point being right, it doesnt matter. Ben still would have at least considered using Alien X if he was actually stronger than the Chrono Navigator.
>And one of the instances where he used Alien X was just to fight against the rooter kids, not exactly a big enough situation to require using him. Him not using Alien X in situations where he would be useful isn't a decision to only save him for the most important stuff, it's pure plot convinience
But this goes against the point of it being plot convinence however. Bens shown to use Alien X against the rooter kids? That gives even more reason to say that Ben is willing to use Alien X more times than not, even if the situation doesnt need him at all. So why not use him in a situation that is far more drastic than anything he has ever faced?
>And as for having no excuse, he was asked to use Clockwork by Paradox,so if another alien could already fix the situation why it would be necessary to use Alien X
Because using Clockwork is not only much more risky (Clockwork is an alien that is only strong with hax, not actual stats like Alien X or even any of Bens other aliens), but takes much more work as well. Because for one, Paradox asked both teen and younger Be to become Clockwork. And this plan required them both to sync their omnitrixes together just so the younger ben could become clockwork at all. And even with both of them using clockwork, they were aiming to trap Eon in a point between their time periods, avoiding a fight and confrontation all together at that point.
If Alien X was stronger than the Navigator, why go through all of that work with Clockwork when Alien X could do all that and then some in a matter of moments? It saves all the trouble of needing both Bens to be Clockwork, it would have been much less risky, and it would be a situation that actually calls for using Alien X and it making sense.
Pretty sure that this isnt luck based but the Omnitrix using it's failsafe. After all, the Omnitrix is able to give Ben an alien to stop a specific situation he is facing even if Ben doesn't actively choose a specific alien he wants to use.
But assuming im wrong and your right, lets say Ben did choose Alien X out of pure luck. Then what? The next time Ben faces a threat that is FAR bigger than what he previously faced with the Annilaargh, he isn't going to even consider using the Alien that got him out of the mess he was in before? The strongest Alien he has in his whole arsenal? That makes no sense. So even with the luck point being right, it doesnt matter. Ben still would have at least considered using Alien X if he was actually stronger than the Chrono Navigator.
>And one of the instances where he used Alien X was just to fight against the rooter kids, not exactly a big enough situation to require using him. Him not using Alien X in situations where he would be useful isn't a decision to only save him for the most important stuff, it's pure plot convinience
But this goes against the point of it being plot convinence however. Bens shown to use Alien X against the rooter kids? That gives even more reason to say that Ben is willing to use Alien X more times than not, even if the situation doesnt need him at all. So why not use him in a situation that is far more drastic than anything he has ever faced?
>And as for having no excuse, he was asked to use Clockwork by Paradox,so if another alien could already fix the situation why it would be necessary to use Alien X
Because using Clockwork is not only much more risky (Clockwork is an alien that is only strong with hax, not actual stats like Alien X or even any of Bens other aliens), but takes much more work as well. Because for one, Paradox asked both teen and younger Be to become Clockwork. And this plan required them both to sync their omnitrixes together just so the younger ben could become clockwork at all. And even with both of them using clockwork, they were aiming to trap Eon in a point between their time periods, avoiding a fight and confrontation all together at that point.
If Alien X was stronger than the Navigator, why go through all of that work with Clockwork when Alien X could do all that and then some in a matter of moments? It saves all the trouble of needing both Bens to be Clockwork, it would have been much less risky, and it would be a situation that actually calls for using Alien X and it making sense.
- 10,758
- 6,491
>Pretty sure that... isnt luck based but the Omnitrix using it's Chrono Navigator.....But....faced?
Alien X at his worst is a universe buster while everyone else reaches tier 5 at best, in general it makes no sense for him to favour other aliens more and not at least try using him more. The argument of how logical it would be to use Alien x falls flat when you realize just how many situations you can apply this to and no, the navigator being a multiversal threat doesn't solve this problem, even the destruction of a single planet would be a huge deal that someone would logically use all options at their disposal to solve
Him not using Alien X is pretty much always so that the conflicts can be resolved in an interesting manner and the other aliens can be featured, not because Alien X wouldn't be useful for a situation
And the rooters situation shows that Ben using and not using Alien X has nothing to do with how big the threat is, while you argued that Ben uses Alien X when the occasion calls for it but avoids it at other times. There is no such character trait justifying when Alien X pops up, it's purely a matter of whether the writer decide to use him or not
>using Clockwork... trouble of needing both Bens to be Clockwork, it would have been much less risky, and it would be a situation that actually calls for using Alien X and it making sense.
And so what? Is this the first time Ben had to accomplish a massively dangerous task with a certain alien while Alien X would solve it easily? My money is on no. This is yet another case of Ben not using Alien X when using him would solve the problem easily
Alien X at his worst is a universe buster while everyone else reaches tier 5 at best, in general it makes no sense for him to favour other aliens more and not at least try using him more. The argument of how logical it would be to use Alien x falls flat when you realize just how many situations you can apply this to and no, the navigator being a multiversal threat doesn't solve this problem, even the destruction of a single planet would be a huge deal that someone would logically use all options at their disposal to solve
Him not using Alien X is pretty much always so that the conflicts can be resolved in an interesting manner and the other aliens can be featured, not because Alien X wouldn't be useful for a situation
And the rooters situation shows that Ben using and not using Alien X has nothing to do with how big the threat is, while you argued that Ben uses Alien X when the occasion calls for it but avoids it at other times. There is no such character trait justifying when Alien X pops up, it's purely a matter of whether the writer decide to use him or not
>using Clockwork... trouble of needing both Bens to be Clockwork, it would have been much less risky, and it would be a situation that actually calls for using Alien X and it making sense.
And so what? Is this the first time Ben had to accomplish a massively dangerous task with a certain alien while Alien X would solve it easily? My money is on no. This is yet another case of Ben not using Alien X when using him would solve the problem easily
- 16,960
- 4,860
>Alien X at his worst is a universe buster while everyone else reaches tier 5 at best, in general it makes no sense for him to favour other aliens more and not at least try using him more. The argument of how logical it would be to use Alien x falls flat when you realize just how many situations you can apply this to and no, the navigator being a multiversal threat doesn't solve this problem, even the destruction of a single planet would be a huge deal that someone would logically use all options at their disposal to solve.
It does solve the problem. What your not taking into account here is that these situations are, on a case by case basis, vastly different from each other all the time. Facing a planetary threat? Sure, Alien X could just stop it in a blink. But these kind of situations are ones that wouldnt have any plot or story progression whatsoever since Alien X would stop it in a matter of seconds. Alien X can be used to stop a planet or star from being destroyed, but that doesn't mean he should. Ben has other aliens that can stop it just fine. Not to mention, Ben would have to try convincing Bellicus and Serena to let him use Alien X to stop every single problem he comes across, which would become a huge hassle. So it makes perfect sense that Ben would not use Alien X for literally everything.
Going up against a multiversal threat is a vastly different story from any other threat Ben would face when Alien X is, like, the only option to stop it. And the best option as well, and would be a situation where he can easily get Bellicus and Serena to use him. Because again, Bellicus and Serena are not such morons to just ignore a threat that can also kill them too. So when facing a multiversal threat, there is not any excuse whatsoever for Ben to not use Alien X but take his chances with an Alien that could very easily fail. And if Ben is willing to use Alien X for something unreasonable like going against the rook brothers, or for a lower threat like saving a universe, he should be more than willing to use him to save the entire Multiverse.
>Him not using Alien X is pretty much always so that the conflicts can be resolved in an interesting manner and the other aliens can be featured, not because Alien X wouldn't be useful for a situatio
"Interesting manner" is subjective here. And no, you cant use "so the other aliens can be featured" when Alien X has very rare occurrences compared to literally every Alien in Ben's whole arsenal. Facing a situation where it would be both cool and logical to use Alien X to stop it? That goes without saying here.
Besides, this point still doesnt address the fact that Alien X was not even considered whatsoever to stop the Navigator. Deicidng not to use Alien X is one thing. Not actually considering him at all is another. Had Ben actually considered using Alien X but decided to go with something else for a different reason, that'd be easier to understand. But not even considering him whatsoever? Thats a problem.
This point gets hammered in even more when you acknowledge the fact that Ben wasnt the only one to not consider Alien X. Paradox, the very person who said made such statements about Alien X's power in the past, didnt even consider Alien X as an option at all to stop the Naigator but chooses Clockwork as a first choice for Ben. An Alien that can't even defeat Eon, but only trap him.
>And the rooters situation shows that Ben using and not using Alien X has nothing to do with how big the threat is, while you argued that Ben uses Alien X when the occasion calls for it but avoids it at other times. There is no such character trait justifying when Alien X pops up, it's purely a matter of whether the writer decide to use him or not
Yes, but it does also show that it is in Ben's character to use Alien X more often than not using him. Whether it be to stop a big threat or for something stupid like the rook brothers. And it doesn't take rocket science to realize Alien X should be used to stop an entire multiverse from being destroyed, especially since Ben was willing to use Alien X to try and stop his own universe from being destroyed and went with him because he explicitly wanted a strong alien to solve the situation.
>And so what? Is this the first time Ben had to accomplish a massively dangerous task with a certain alien while Alien X would solve it easily? My money is on no.
The difference is that those previous sitatuons are no where remotely close to as drastic as what we are talking about here.
Not only that, but those situations are ones where it is perfectly within the capabilities of Bens other aliens to solve, difficulty or not. And Ben is not stupid enough to try and get Bellicus and Serena to let him use Alien X to stop something so hilariously below them that there wouldnt be any point in even asking them at all.
It does solve the problem. What your not taking into account here is that these situations are, on a case by case basis, vastly different from each other all the time. Facing a planetary threat? Sure, Alien X could just stop it in a blink. But these kind of situations are ones that wouldnt have any plot or story progression whatsoever since Alien X would stop it in a matter of seconds. Alien X can be used to stop a planet or star from being destroyed, but that doesn't mean he should. Ben has other aliens that can stop it just fine. Not to mention, Ben would have to try convincing Bellicus and Serena to let him use Alien X to stop every single problem he comes across, which would become a huge hassle. So it makes perfect sense that Ben would not use Alien X for literally everything.
Going up against a multiversal threat is a vastly different story from any other threat Ben would face when Alien X is, like, the only option to stop it. And the best option as well, and would be a situation where he can easily get Bellicus and Serena to use him. Because again, Bellicus and Serena are not such morons to just ignore a threat that can also kill them too. So when facing a multiversal threat, there is not any excuse whatsoever for Ben to not use Alien X but take his chances with an Alien that could very easily fail. And if Ben is willing to use Alien X for something unreasonable like going against the rook brothers, or for a lower threat like saving a universe, he should be more than willing to use him to save the entire Multiverse.
>Him not using Alien X is pretty much always so that the conflicts can be resolved in an interesting manner and the other aliens can be featured, not because Alien X wouldn't be useful for a situatio
"Interesting manner" is subjective here. And no, you cant use "so the other aliens can be featured" when Alien X has very rare occurrences compared to literally every Alien in Ben's whole arsenal. Facing a situation where it would be both cool and logical to use Alien X to stop it? That goes without saying here.
Besides, this point still doesnt address the fact that Alien X was not even considered whatsoever to stop the Navigator. Deicidng not to use Alien X is one thing. Not actually considering him at all is another. Had Ben actually considered using Alien X but decided to go with something else for a different reason, that'd be easier to understand. But not even considering him whatsoever? Thats a problem.
This point gets hammered in even more when you acknowledge the fact that Ben wasnt the only one to not consider Alien X. Paradox, the very person who said made such statements about Alien X's power in the past, didnt even consider Alien X as an option at all to stop the Naigator but chooses Clockwork as a first choice for Ben. An Alien that can't even defeat Eon, but only trap him.
>And the rooters situation shows that Ben using and not using Alien X has nothing to do with how big the threat is, while you argued that Ben uses Alien X when the occasion calls for it but avoids it at other times. There is no such character trait justifying when Alien X pops up, it's purely a matter of whether the writer decide to use him or not
Yes, but it does also show that it is in Ben's character to use Alien X more often than not using him. Whether it be to stop a big threat or for something stupid like the rook brothers. And it doesn't take rocket science to realize Alien X should be used to stop an entire multiverse from being destroyed, especially since Ben was willing to use Alien X to try and stop his own universe from being destroyed and went with him because he explicitly wanted a strong alien to solve the situation.
>And so what? Is this the first time Ben had to accomplish a massively dangerous task with a certain alien while Alien X would solve it easily? My money is on no.
The difference is that those previous sitatuons are no where remotely close to as drastic as what we are talking about here.
Not only that, but those situations are ones where it is perfectly within the capabilities of Bens other aliens to solve, difficulty or not. And Ben is not stupid enough to try and get Bellicus and Serena to let him use Alien X to stop something so hilariously below them that there wouldnt be any point in even asking them at all.
- 10,758
- 6,491
I'm off to bed. Will see if I'm needed later
- 16,960
- 4,860
We're talking about the Chrono Navigator, not the time bomb.Omimi said:
- Status
Similar threads
