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Unless the verse works like DBZ's cosmologyShadowWarrior1999 said:
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Alien X Upgrade
- Thread starter ÖzkanDemir
- Start date
- Status
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We talked about Alien X recreating the Time Bomb before?
JohnCenaNation
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Ben 10 calls Alien X his most powerful alien, yet featwise Clockwork appears to be his most powerful alien.Firestorm808 said:
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Yes Clockwork brought back the Multiverse after he was destroyed but he simply reverses back the time,Clockwork time hax works in place where there is time,outside the universe he was human level getting beaten up by Rook.Alien X without time in a void when universe was destoyed recreates Paradox himself calls alien x the most powerful by that statement Alien X is more powerful as mentioned in the show.JohnCenaNation said:
JohnCenaNation
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So why isn't Alien X 2-a in this wiki?DemonicDude said:
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Ben 10 creators were asked is the a being more powerful than Alien X in Ben 10 verse Is there an entity or entities more powerful than Celetialsapiens? their answer was We have to keep some secrets and surprises for the future!. here blog.Alien x isn't the most powerful by that logic as a whole. This is old statement here Paradox himself who is 2-A on this site said Alien X the most powerful being in the universe. Alien X should be higher via statement in the show.
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Dwayne M. even says "Canon is what happens on the show, not what I (the writers) say."
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Not many people are talking about Alien X recreating the Time Bomb, so I decided to look in the initial downgrade thread: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/889629 The arguments against it have issues.
The Everlasting
@Kukui
Recreating a bomb doesn't mean he's stronger than it. Same way Hugo from OFF doesn't get scaled to the Batter and the Queen for creating them.
Taking a look at Hugo (OFF), we have: Unknow physically. At least Solar System level, likely higher via hax. (Though not noteworthy physically, Hugo created both The Batter and The Quee. It should be noted that Hugo seemingly either can't use his powers for fighting or has no desire to)
The difference between this recreation feat and the OFF one is that Alien X can fight and uses his energy and puts it into an inanimate object. The total energy in the Time Bomb is constant since creation.
ProfessorKukui4Life
@Everlasting
Oh I know that. I wasn't arguing that. In fact I was going against it the same as you.
The problems I have with that are:
1.) We have 0 evidence that the Time Bomb was made in the same universe or time period as Ben when he did the feat since, iirc, it was created by Chronosapiens who come from an entirely different reality and time completely and they were in the middle of some war stretching across space-time.
2.) Why would a 2-A weapon be able to be even remotely affected by a Low 2-C to 2-C level reset at best? The bomb would have to have some feature or capability to it that would allow it to survive the kind of destruction it unfolds and considering this thing is supposedly able to destroy endless timelines, then it should be able to sit through a recreation of the universe perfectly.
So to make the story short I'm agreeing with you. Just adding more fuel to the fire.
The issue with point 1 is that Vilgax is in posession of the bomb since the 1700s. It was always in the Prime Timeline and in the universe when it was destroyed and recreated.
The issue with point 2 is that the assumption of the bomb surviving is contradicted by Starbeard and Bellicus explicitly stating that Alien X recreated the Universe and everything in it.
Reppuza
1) I don't know if that's quantifiable.
2) It's entirely possible for a civilization to create weapons more powerful than anything its people can do individually. The same way we humans have created nuclear bombs and the Galvans created the Omnitrix, the Chronosapiens created an extremely powerful multi-universal time bomb.
Creating a device from existing materials is one thing. Creating the device and its power source from your own energy is another matter.
The Everlasting
@Kukui
Recreating a bomb doesn't mean he's stronger than it. Same way Hugo from OFF doesn't get scaled to the Batter and the Queen for creating them.
Taking a look at Hugo (OFF), we have: Unknow physically. At least Solar System level, likely higher via hax. (Though not noteworthy physically, Hugo created both The Batter and The Quee. It should be noted that Hugo seemingly either can't use his powers for fighting or has no desire to)
The difference between this recreation feat and the OFF one is that Alien X can fight and uses his energy and puts it into an inanimate object. The total energy in the Time Bomb is constant since creation.
ProfessorKukui4Life
@Everlasting
Oh I know that. I wasn't arguing that. In fact I was going against it the same as you.
The problems I have with that are:
1.) We have 0 evidence that the Time Bomb was made in the same universe or time period as Ben when he did the feat since, iirc, it was created by Chronosapiens who come from an entirely different reality and time completely and they were in the middle of some war stretching across space-time.
2.) Why would a 2-A weapon be able to be even remotely affected by a Low 2-C to 2-C level reset at best? The bomb would have to have some feature or capability to it that would allow it to survive the kind of destruction it unfolds and considering this thing is supposedly able to destroy endless timelines, then it should be able to sit through a recreation of the universe perfectly.
So to make the story short I'm agreeing with you. Just adding more fuel to the fire.
The issue with point 1 is that Vilgax is in posession of the bomb since the 1700s. It was always in the Prime Timeline and in the universe when it was destroyed and recreated.
The issue with point 2 is that the assumption of the bomb surviving is contradicted by Starbeard and Bellicus explicitly stating that Alien X recreated the Universe and everything in it.
Reppuza
1) I don't know if that's quantifiable.
2) It's entirely possible for a civilization to create weapons more powerful than anything its people can do individually. The same way we humans have created nuclear bombs and the Galvans created the Omnitrix, the Chronosapiens created an extremely powerful multi-universal time bomb.
Creating a device from existing materials is one thing. Creating the device and its power source from your own energy is another matter.
JohnCenaNation
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Bump.
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I think that we have talked about scaling Alien X to the time bomb earlier, yes, but you will have to look up past discussions in order to find the specifics: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Topic:Alien_X
Anyway, by their own feats, the best we can do is to allow the Celestialsapiens "At least Low 2-C, likely higher" statistics. It seems like too much speculation to scale them to a hax (as opposed to raw power) feat from Clockwork. However, you can ask other administrators and discussion moderators to comment here about it if you wish.
Anyway, by their own feats, the best we can do is to allow the Celestialsapiens "At least Low 2-C, likely higher" statistics. It seems like too much speculation to scale them to a hax (as opposed to raw power) feat from Clockwork. However, you can ask other administrators and discussion moderators to comment here about it if you wish.
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I'll start digging through the old threads. Keep in mind that Dwayne McDuffie even said "Canon is what happens on the show, not what I (the writers) say." This supports our site rule that writer statements can't contradict the published source material.
- Upgrade to 2-A
- https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/63528
- https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/642277
- Summary of Official and Licensed Feats and Statements: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3443511#76
- Downgrade from 2-A
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Okay, no. I was originally going to stay out of this because it seemed to be just another failed attempt ouf of the previous dozens of threads, but for this i'll make an exception. Now this will be kind of long, so, prepare yourselves.
2-A Downgrade for the Chrono Navigator/time bomb
Before I even get to the other points addressed here, this needs to be brought up again. The Ben 10 Multiverse is not even a 2-A structure to begin with. The only reason why they have even remained 2-A up until now was because of a simple compromise from The Everlasting's downgrade thread, which I am shutting down now.
The current evidence we use to justify 2-A Ben 10 at all here is the statement made by Paradox saying that there are parallel universes that branch off "ad infinitum" . This is not 2-A. "Branching off ad infinitum" doesn't mean that the universes in the Ben 10 Multiverse are flat out infinite in number. It only means that the universes simply branch off and grow in number for infinity. Infinitely growing in number, but still remaining finite in number at all times. Which is, at best, high into 2-B. And it needs to be kept in mind that Paradox just before explicitly said there were only hundreds of timelines, which shuts down any chance of the Multiverse being infinite flat out in scope.
So even IF we take the highest possible interpretation of what Paradox said, and accept Alien X scaling to the weapons, it still isn't 2-A. So the weapons and the multiverse need to be downgraded first things first.
Demonic's arguments
>This is old statement here Paradox himself who is 2-A on this site said Alien X the most powerful being in the universe. Alien X should be higher via statement in the show.
No offense, but this is a very flawed and misleading argument. Paradox himself is not physically 2-B (2-A was debunked above). In fact, Paradox himself is not even a tier 2 being physically. With his powers, he is only like....7-A to 4-B at best. Paradox is only tier 2 using the Chrono Navigator, so even with using this statement of him saying Alien X is the strongest being in the universe, the scaling that would come from this said statement would only let Alien X scale above Paradox's individual capabilities. Not something seperate like a weapon. So this point is completely useless.
FireStorm808's arguments
>The difference between this recreation feat and the OFF one is that Alien X can fight and uses his energy and puts it into an inanimate object. The total energy in the Time Bomb is constant since creation.
2 problems with this very point.
First, it is still just as Ever previously said. Creating an object, even from your own power, doesn't mean that you scale to it. This is a standard we already have on the wiki, which is precisely why not all creator god characters are automatically given the abilities of what they create in their verse without explicit concrete evidence. Generally the stuff you create is separate from you. And this is going under the assumption that his universal reset effected the bomb in the first place.
Second, "the total energy in the time bomb is constant since creation" is implying that the bomb in general is a 2-B device in both AP and durability, which contradicts your later arguments. I'll continue this below.
>The issue with point 1 is that Vilgax is in posession of the bomb since the 1700s. It was always in the Prime Timeline and in the universe when it was destroyed and recreated.
The issue with point 2 is that the assumption of the bomb surviving is contradicted by Starbeard and Bellicus explicitly stating that Alien X recreated the Universe and everything in it.
Multiple issues with this.
First off, while Vilgax does have possession of the bomb since the 1700s in the prime universe, this doesn't automatically prove the bomb remained in the prime universe, especially up to the point in time where Ben used Alien X to restore it. What proves Vilgax remained in the prime universe with the bomb as opposed to going to another reality? And this is assuming that Ben used Alien X to restore the past and future versions of the prime universe as opposed to just the present space-time being destroyed.
Second, im repeating what I said before. This bomb is supposed to be a 2-B weapon capable of destroying countless universes and timelines. It being able to be effected by a simple Low 2-C destruction and reset makes absolutely no sense. This is especially glaring when you earlier said that the bombs energy is "constant". If the energy is constant and not only in use when the bombs actually activated, why are you arguing that the universe's destruction and recreation effected it? Constant 2-B energy would laugh off a universal reset attempt. And it should be remembered here that Alien X himself was completely unaffected by the Annilaarg's universe destruction so that he could reset it. That shows that something comparable to or superior to the Annilaarg's Low 2-C power is safe from it's effects. So why would the 2-B Time Bomb be any different from this?
>Creating a device from existing materials is one thing. Creating the device and its power source from your own energy is another matter.
Yeah, where is this proven to be the case? Also, there is another glaring point that I should point out.
The Universe Being "completely destroyed"
What the sub-title says. While relooking into Alien X's feat, there is something fishy that I dont recall being brought up before. Now, the feat is still undoubtedly Low 2-C. But the prime universe was not completely destroyed before Ben recreated it.
Ben explicitly says that "the universe is being destroyed" when trying to get permission from Belicus and Serena to use Alien X. Not anything akin to saying "the universe has bee destroyed". And if that isn't enough to convince you, we literally see the universe in the middle of its destruction from within Alien X. Serena even comments on how its sad to see the universe's inhabitants go. This strongly implies that the universe wasn't entirely destroyed but was in the middle of the process and would have been totally destroyed later on if Ben didnt get permission in time to recreate it.
So if the universe wasn't completely destroyed before the reset, then its even more speculative to argue that the Chronosapien Time Bomb was effected without any explicit proof otherwise.
2-A Downgrade for the Chrono Navigator/time bomb
Before I even get to the other points addressed here, this needs to be brought up again. The Ben 10 Multiverse is not even a 2-A structure to begin with. The only reason why they have even remained 2-A up until now was because of a simple compromise from The Everlasting's downgrade thread, which I am shutting down now.
The current evidence we use to justify 2-A Ben 10 at all here is the statement made by Paradox saying that there are parallel universes that branch off "ad infinitum" . This is not 2-A. "Branching off ad infinitum" doesn't mean that the universes in the Ben 10 Multiverse are flat out infinite in number. It only means that the universes simply branch off and grow in number for infinity. Infinitely growing in number, but still remaining finite in number at all times. Which is, at best, high into 2-B. And it needs to be kept in mind that Paradox just before explicitly said there were only hundreds of timelines, which shuts down any chance of the Multiverse being infinite flat out in scope.
So even IF we take the highest possible interpretation of what Paradox said, and accept Alien X scaling to the weapons, it still isn't 2-A. So the weapons and the multiverse need to be downgraded first things first.
Demonic's arguments
>This is old statement here Paradox himself who is 2-A on this site said Alien X the most powerful being in the universe. Alien X should be higher via statement in the show.
No offense, but this is a very flawed and misleading argument. Paradox himself is not physically 2-B (2-A was debunked above). In fact, Paradox himself is not even a tier 2 being physically. With his powers, he is only like....7-A to 4-B at best. Paradox is only tier 2 using the Chrono Navigator, so even with using this statement of him saying Alien X is the strongest being in the universe, the scaling that would come from this said statement would only let Alien X scale above Paradox's individual capabilities. Not something seperate like a weapon. So this point is completely useless.
FireStorm808's arguments
>The difference between this recreation feat and the OFF one is that Alien X can fight and uses his energy and puts it into an inanimate object. The total energy in the Time Bomb is constant since creation.
2 problems with this very point.
First, it is still just as Ever previously said. Creating an object, even from your own power, doesn't mean that you scale to it. This is a standard we already have on the wiki, which is precisely why not all creator god characters are automatically given the abilities of what they create in their verse without explicit concrete evidence. Generally the stuff you create is separate from you. And this is going under the assumption that his universal reset effected the bomb in the first place.
Second, "the total energy in the time bomb is constant since creation" is implying that the bomb in general is a 2-B device in both AP and durability, which contradicts your later arguments. I'll continue this below.
>The issue with point 1 is that Vilgax is in posession of the bomb since the 1700s. It was always in the Prime Timeline and in the universe when it was destroyed and recreated.
The issue with point 2 is that the assumption of the bomb surviving is contradicted by Starbeard and Bellicus explicitly stating that Alien X recreated the Universe and everything in it.
Multiple issues with this.
First off, while Vilgax does have possession of the bomb since the 1700s in the prime universe, this doesn't automatically prove the bomb remained in the prime universe, especially up to the point in time where Ben used Alien X to restore it. What proves Vilgax remained in the prime universe with the bomb as opposed to going to another reality? And this is assuming that Ben used Alien X to restore the past and future versions of the prime universe as opposed to just the present space-time being destroyed.
Second, im repeating what I said before. This bomb is supposed to be a 2-B weapon capable of destroying countless universes and timelines. It being able to be effected by a simple Low 2-C destruction and reset makes absolutely no sense. This is especially glaring when you earlier said that the bombs energy is "constant". If the energy is constant and not only in use when the bombs actually activated, why are you arguing that the universe's destruction and recreation effected it? Constant 2-B energy would laugh off a universal reset attempt. And it should be remembered here that Alien X himself was completely unaffected by the Annilaarg's universe destruction so that he could reset it. That shows that something comparable to or superior to the Annilaarg's Low 2-C power is safe from it's effects. So why would the 2-B Time Bomb be any different from this?
>Creating a device from existing materials is one thing. Creating the device and its power source from your own energy is another matter.
Yeah, where is this proven to be the case? Also, there is another glaring point that I should point out.
The Universe Being "completely destroyed"
What the sub-title says. While relooking into Alien X's feat, there is something fishy that I dont recall being brought up before. Now, the feat is still undoubtedly Low 2-C. But the prime universe was not completely destroyed before Ben recreated it.
Ben explicitly says that "the universe is being destroyed" when trying to get permission from Belicus and Serena to use Alien X. Not anything akin to saying "the universe has bee destroyed". And if that isn't enough to convince you, we literally see the universe in the middle of its destruction from within Alien X. Serena even comments on how its sad to see the universe's inhabitants go. This strongly implies that the universe wasn't entirely destroyed but was in the middle of the process and would have been totally destroyed later on if Ben didnt get permission in time to recreate it.
So if the universe wasn't completely destroyed before the reset, then its even more speculative to argue that the Chronosapien Time Bomb was effected without any explicit proof otherwise.
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I think that Kukui makes sense.
So should we downgrade the Chronosapien Time Bomb to 2-B then, and are there any other characters that scale from this?
So should we downgrade the Chronosapien Time Bomb to 2-B then, and are there any other characters that scale from this?
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2-B for the CTB and the Chrono Navigator? Sure. That's fine.
Creating an object, even from your own power, doesn't mean that you scale to it. This is a standard we already have on the wiki, which is precisely why not all creator god characters are automatically given the abilities of what they create in their verse without explicit concrete evidence. Generally the stuff you create is separate from you.
The CTB contains a pure form of energy, enough to destroy many timelines. Alien X put his own energy into the recreated bomb. This is similar to other character discussions on this site. If a person can gather energy to create a star, they can also gather that energy and use it in a punch. I remember there being a discussion thread regarding this.
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3158739
Kepekley23
This has been discussed dozens of times and the answer is always the same.
There is absolutely no reason to assume they can't infuse their energy blasts with the same energy they put into use for creating whole dimensions, planets, galaxies or universes.
Take something similar to Boros' CSRC, which requires him to use all the energy sealed inside his body, completely exhausts him, and reduces his lifespan a lot. Theoretically, one could say he would be able to infuse the energy he used for that into a normal punch, but logic would dictate that the effects would be the same, and it'd be just one-single super punch that'd exhaust him completely and have significant side-effects, just like CSRC, so it wouldn't scale to Striking Strength or Normal AP.
But something like creating a universe with no visible side effects to your stamina, health, or reserves? We can easily assume they can infuse their serious physical attacks and energy blasts with the same energy.
In regards to the CTB's erasure, Ben, Serena, and Bellicus state that the erasure couldn't be stopped, and they had to recreate everything afterward.
Ben: Belicus, Serena, you got to let me use Alien X to stop the Annihilarrgh! Hey, I finally said it.
Bellicus: Oh, it's too late for that.
Ben: What? I-it can't be!
Serena: I'm afraid it is. Oh, I can sense your disappointment.
Ben: I know, right? I was too late to save the universe, so I used Alien X to make a whole new one.
Second, "the total energy in the time bomb is constant since creation" is implying that the bomb in general is a 2-B device in both AP and durability, which contradicts your later arguments. I'll continue this below.
I never stated that the CTB had 2-B durability. It's current profile gives it a rating of unknown.
First off, while Vilgax does have possession of the bomb since the 1700s in the prime universe, this doesn't automatically prove the bomb remained in the prime universe, especially up to the point in time where Ben used Alien X to restore it. What proves Vilgax remained in the prime universe with the bomb as opposed to going to another reality? And this is assuming that Ben used Alien X to restore the past and future versions of the prime universe as opposed to just the present space-time being destroyed.
Ben recreated the universe in Season 1. Eon didn't appear until Season 2. Vilgax makes his first appearance in Season 3. Vilgax doesn't use the bomb until Season 6. Ben's trial was later in season 6.
Second, im repeating what I said before. This bomb is supposed to be a 2-B weapon capable of destroying countless universes and timelines. It being able to be effected by a simple Low 2-C destruction and reset makes absolutely no sense. This is especially glaring when you earlier said that the bombs energy is "constant". If the energy is constant and not only in use when the bombs actually activated, why are you arguing that the universe's destruction and recreation effected it? Constant 2-B energy would laugh off a universal reset attempt. And it should be remembered here that Alien X himself was completely unaffected by the Annilaarg's universe destruction so that he could reset it. That shows that something comparable to or superior to the Annilaarg's Low 2-C power is safe from it's effects. So why would the 2-B Time Bomb be any different from this?
I'm pretty sure bombs are allowed to have lower durability than their AP. We even give the CTB an Unknown durability. Beating a hammer against a bomb would not end well for anyone.
The celestialsapien statements imply that Alien X had better durability that everything else in the universe at the time of its destruction.
Creating an object, even from your own power, doesn't mean that you scale to it. This is a standard we already have on the wiki, which is precisely why not all creator god characters are automatically given the abilities of what they create in their verse without explicit concrete evidence. Generally the stuff you create is separate from you.
The CTB contains a pure form of energy, enough to destroy many timelines. Alien X put his own energy into the recreated bomb. This is similar to other character discussions on this site. If a person can gather energy to create a star, they can also gather that energy and use it in a punch. I remember there being a discussion thread regarding this.
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3158739
Kepekley23
This has been discussed dozens of times and the answer is always the same.
- Character X, Y or Z waves his arms and a universe pops into existence.
There is absolutely no reason to assume they can't infuse their energy blasts with the same energy they put into use for creating whole dimensions, planets, galaxies or universes.
Take something similar to Boros' CSRC, which requires him to use all the energy sealed inside his body, completely exhausts him, and reduces his lifespan a lot. Theoretically, one could say he would be able to infuse the energy he used for that into a normal punch, but logic would dictate that the effects would be the same, and it'd be just one-single super punch that'd exhaust him completely and have significant side-effects, just like CSRC, so it wouldn't scale to Striking Strength or Normal AP.
But something like creating a universe with no visible side effects to your stamina, health, or reserves? We can easily assume they can infuse their serious physical attacks and energy blasts with the same energy.
In regards to the CTB's erasure, Ben, Serena, and Bellicus state that the erasure couldn't be stopped, and they had to recreate everything afterward.
Ben: Belicus, Serena, you got to let me use Alien X to stop the Annihilarrgh! Hey, I finally said it.
Bellicus: Oh, it's too late for that.
Ben: What? I-it can't be!
Serena: I'm afraid it is. Oh, I can sense your disappointment.
Ben: I know, right? I was too late to save the universe, so I used Alien X to make a whole new one.
Second, "the total energy in the time bomb is constant since creation" is implying that the bomb in general is a 2-B device in both AP and durability, which contradicts your later arguments. I'll continue this below.
I never stated that the CTB had 2-B durability. It's current profile gives it a rating of unknown.
First off, while Vilgax does have possession of the bomb since the 1700s in the prime universe, this doesn't automatically prove the bomb remained in the prime universe, especially up to the point in time where Ben used Alien X to restore it. What proves Vilgax remained in the prime universe with the bomb as opposed to going to another reality? And this is assuming that Ben used Alien X to restore the past and future versions of the prime universe as opposed to just the present space-time being destroyed.
Ben recreated the universe in Season 1. Eon didn't appear until Season 2. Vilgax makes his first appearance in Season 3. Vilgax doesn't use the bomb until Season 6. Ben's trial was later in season 6.
Second, im repeating what I said before. This bomb is supposed to be a 2-B weapon capable of destroying countless universes and timelines. It being able to be effected by a simple Low 2-C destruction and reset makes absolutely no sense. This is especially glaring when you earlier said that the bombs energy is "constant". If the energy is constant and not only in use when the bombs actually activated, why are you arguing that the universe's destruction and recreation effected it? Constant 2-B energy would laugh off a universal reset attempt. And it should be remembered here that Alien X himself was completely unaffected by the Annilaarg's universe destruction so that he could reset it. That shows that something comparable to or superior to the Annilaarg's Low 2-C power is safe from it's effects. So why would the 2-B Time Bomb be any different from this?
I'm pretty sure bombs are allowed to have lower durability than their AP. We even give the CTB an Unknown durability. Beating a hammer against a bomb would not end well for anyone.
The celestialsapien statements imply that Alien X had better durability that everything else in the universe at the time of its destruction.
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You're saying Ben 10 Multiverse isn't 2-A the fact that Ben travelled to Rex's universe which isn't branch off and that episode is cannon.Firestorm808 said:
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Right now, I'm just trying to argue for Alien X and the CTB. 2-A and 2-B arguments can be made later.
Also, you don't need to quote it. It's right next to your post.
Also, you don't need to quote it. It's right next to your post.
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The Multiverse in Ben 10 is actually infinite. According to their wiki and I quote
"Alternate Timelines, also known as Crosstime, are parallel versions of the history we know. Each timeline is every bit as real as the others and there is an infinite number of them. The timelines also shift and alter into another. Many of them branched off since when the universe was first created from the beginning of time.
Vilgax even mentioned that the time bomb will wipe out ALL versions of Ben Tennyson in the Ben 10 Multiverse except the universe they were currently in. If this is sufficient enough the Chrono Navigator and the Chronosapien Time Bomb should stay as 2-A.
As for this upgrade for Alien X, I agree with "At least Low 2-C"
"Alternate Timelines, also known as Crosstime, are parallel versions of the history we know. Each timeline is every bit as real as the others and there is an infinite number of them. The timelines also shift and alter into another. Many of them branched off since when the universe was first created from the beginning of time.
Vilgax even mentioned that the time bomb will wipe out ALL versions of Ben Tennyson in the Ben 10 Multiverse except the universe they were currently in. If this is sufficient enough the Chrono Navigator and the Chronosapien Time Bomb should stay as 2-A.
As for this upgrade for Alien X, I agree with "At least Low 2-C"
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If anything, I'll start organizing Paradox's quotes about timelines, so we have things straightened out.
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It's preferred if we have in show dialog.
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@MrLurk2000
May I ask why you think Alien X shouldn't scale to the CTB or the Chrono Navigator?
May I ask why you think Alien X shouldn't scale to the CTB or the Chrono Navigator?
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I'll reply to FireStorm's reply later, but for this one, absolutely no.MrLuk2000 said:
What the show actually says >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wikia first of all. That page on the wikia isn't even cited so the "infinite number of them" part is being taken out of literally nowhere. At best, this is probably referring to "Ad Infinitum", which I already explained above on why its not 2-A.
Not to mention, the wikia contradicts itself here. "Many of them branched off since when the universe was first created from the beginning of time". This bit here literally falls right under what Ad Infinitum is. The number of universes simply infinitely grow, but they are not flat out infinite in number.
So no, the weapons need to be downgraded to 2-B.
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This is the quote in question.
Ben 10: Ultimate Alien - Ben 10000 Returns - "As Gwen guessed, cross-time is made up of parallel versions of the history we know. There are hundreds of them. A world where Gwen found the Omnitrix. A world where albedo turned to alien x and was trapped motionless for nearly a year. A world where you didn't have to destroy the Omnitrix to defeat Vilgax. Et cetera. Ad infinitum."
I'm fine with 2-B.
Ben 10: Ultimate Alien - Ben 10000 Returns - "As Gwen guessed, cross-time is made up of parallel versions of the history we know. There are hundreds of them. A world where Gwen found the Omnitrix. A world where albedo turned to alien x and was trapped motionless for nearly a year. A world where you didn't have to destroy the Omnitrix to defeat Vilgax. Et cetera. Ad infinitum."
I'm fine with 2-B.
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A "universe" by Ben 10 measure includes infinite dimensions which can be the size of a universe inofitself. This is before getting into the multiverse and omniverse. Such examples include Mad Ben's dimension, Dimension 23, Generator Rex's dimension, etc. To my memory the size of Ledgerdomain and the Null Void have not been addressed. The Annihilarg is by this process destroying/creating infinite dimensions depending on when it is used, and the "Universe" as is dealt with in "So Long And Thanks For All The Smoothies" and the end of Omniverse is dealing with infinite universe-sized dimensions. The Annihilarg is after all tech from fifth-dimensional beings in a series where tech is apparently a big stepping stone for civilizations, since the Naljian encouraged Ben that humans may be able to perceive additional dimensions after some time. Here's Holiday clearly establishing that their universe is dealing with infinite dimensions:
https://imgur.com/Y919kap
https://imgur.com/Y919kap
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Can we save these "universe size" discussions for later? You're getting off topic.
Also, we're talking about timeline numbers. For the record, a single Ben 10 Timeline brach contains the regular universe, it's own null void, it's own ledgerdomain, etc. That's still 1 timeline.
Also, we're talking about timeline numbers. For the record, a single Ben 10 Timeline brach contains the regular universe, it's own null void, it's own ledgerdomain, etc. That's still 1 timeline.
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By responding to the OP? It also deals with this side discussion, because a CTB that hypothetically targeted a single universe alone would be striking at infinite parralel dimensions.
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Uh, what?Corporal Atlas said:
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It's also in that Imgur link I posted without having to be downloaded, but yeah, that.
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Sorry. I forgot about that.
- In any case, here are the quotes from the special.
- Ben: We're probably looking at a parallel-world thing.
- Dr. Holiday: Parallel worlds are a theory -- and a shaky one, at that.
- Dr. Holiday: With infinite dimensions, the math doesn't work in your favor, Rex.
- Rex: I'm curious how big brother knows so much about a thing from a parallel dimension.
- Caesar: Because I sent it there. In the early days of the nanite program, our goal was simple -- Construct micromachines to cure diseases, grow new cells, regenerate bones. But there was a control issue. Some thought a human-machine link was the answer. Others proposed that the machines could control themselves. I was in the latter camp. I developed the Alpha to command other nanites. To maximize its effectiveness, I had to program Alpha to think for itself.
- Ben: Does a long explanation mean something bad on your Earth, too? Rex: Yep.
- Caesar: Alpha developed its own consciousness. It evolved into a unique life form and wanted a body, but whatever it built burnt out. So, when Alpha attempted possessing living things, Alpha had to be eliminated. So, I built a dimensional disruptor.
- Ben: That sounds like a "null void gun". We've got those on my Earth, too.
- Caesar: I designed it to send the Alpha to an empty space where it wouldn't do any more damage. That's what I was attempting to do again -- until you destroyed it.
- Ben: But the null void isn't empty. It's a prison for intergalactic criminals.
- Caesar: Hmm. I see. Then, clearly, it found a host within a mechanical one.
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What is going on in this thread
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I am proposing that Alien X should scale to the CTB.
ProfessorKukui4Life argues otherwise while also proposing that the CTB and Chrono Navigator should be downgraded to 2-B.
ProfessorKukui4Life argues otherwise while also proposing that the CTB and Chrono Navigator should be downgraded to 2-B.
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Is somebody knowledgeable willing to downgrade the Chronosapien Time Bomb to 2-B? Also, do any other characters or weapons currently scale from it?
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So you just gonna ignore the link I sent like a few replies later?
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Rules are different on the site so by that logic alien X is Low 2 I guess I'll try to dig more info but it's not worth it nobody is gonna listen.VioletVoid100 said:
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You can ask a few of the following staff members to help out with giving input:
Promestei, SomebodyData, The real cal howard, Dragonmasterxyz, Celestial Pegasus, Dark649, Soldier Blue, Monarch Laciel, Saikou The Lewd King, DarkDragonMedeus, AKM sama, Dargoo Faust, Wokista, Ultima Reality, MrKingOfNegativity, Mr. Bambu, Gemmysaur, Theglassman12, Qawsedf234, Crabwhale, Crimson Azoth, Sir Ovens, Warren Valio, The Calaca
Promestei, SomebodyData, The real cal howard, Dragonmasterxyz, Celestial Pegasus, Dark649, Soldier Blue, Monarch Laciel, Saikou The Lewd King, DarkDragonMedeus, AKM sama, Dargoo Faust, Wokista, Ultima Reality, MrKingOfNegativity, Mr. Bambu, Gemmysaur, Theglassman12, Qawsedf234, Crabwhale, Crimson Azoth, Sir Ovens, Warren Valio, The Calaca
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>The CTB contains a pure form of energy, enough to destroy many timelines. Alien X put his own energy into the recreated bomb.
Except, where is this proven to be the case? Or even remotely stated? That is the problem with this point. Your argument is assuming that Alien X inputted his own energy into the time bomb and this is also using the assumption that the bomb was even effected by the reset in the first place. Which, again, also doesnt make any sense for reason's I already explained. The Annilaarg's feat cannot effect something that is comparable or superior to it's own power, evidenced by Alien X being completely unaffected by it. This bomb is a 2-B level device.
>This is similar to other character discussions on this site. If a person can gather energy to create a star, they can also gather that energy and use it in a punch. I remember there being a discussion thread regarding this.
This is not the same thing as what we are talking about here. That discussion was about how strong characters would be for creating entire structures with their energy, like planets, universes or dimensions. Not restoring objects within said universes, and even then, creation isn't automatically scaled to characters. It is treated on a case by case basis for each character and each verse. To give an example of this, lets take Porunga from Dragon Ball Z. Porunga is a 5-B for him restoring the earth to its original state after Majin Buu destroyed it. Porunga didnt just restore the earth either, he also brought all of the people Buu killed back to life. This includes the likes of Son Goha, Piccolo, Son Gote, Trunks, Krilli, Tien Shinha, Android 18 and so on. Porunga isn't considered a High 4-C just because he brought mutliple High 4-C's back to life. This is the same for Alien X and the Bomb, again, assuming the bomb got effected to begin with.
>In regards to the CTB's erasure, Ben, Serena, and Bellicus state that the erasure couldn't be stopped
This was never said in the clip. And its obviously wrong since Ben asked them if Alien X could fix the universe and Serena replied with yes since Alien X can do "many things".
>and they had to recreate everything afterward.
Yes, but as I proven in the last part of my previous reply, the Annilaargh didnt completely destroy the universe yet before Ben restored it. I'll continue this below.
>Ben recreated the universe in Season 1. Eon didn't appear until Season 2. Vilgax makes his first appearance in Season 3. Vilgax doesn't use the bomb until Season 6. Ben's trial was later in season 6.
This doesn't prove the time bomb was in the prime universe when Ben did his Low 2-C feat. All this explains is that Vilgax had the time bomb but didnt use it until a later season of Omniverse.
>I'm pretty sure bombs are allowed to have lower durability than their AP. We even give the CTB an Unknown durability. Beating a hammer against a bomb would not end well for anyone.
Im not just talking about durability though. If the bombs 2-B energy is constant as you claimed it is, then anything under 2-B would be incapable of effecting it at all. Which would include the Annilaargh and the recreation of the universe, which is only Low 2-C.
The only possible way that this bomb would be able to be effected by a Low 2-C feat (destruction, recreation, and otherwise) would be if the bomb's power isnt actually constant. That it only actively draws energy from its 2-B power source when its actually activated by the one who uses it. Which would still mean that Alien X doesn't scale to its power. So you would have to make a choice. If the time bombs energy is constant, then Alien X doesnt scale because of 2-B energy being > a Low 2-C feats effects. But if the time bombs energy isnt constant and must be actively dwelled upon when actually activated, then Alien X doesnt scale since he would only be effecting the time bomb when it powerless.
And this is not the end of the issues. Like I proven before, the prime universe was not completely destroyed before Ben used Alien X to restore it. It was still in the middle of being destroyed, Ben just fixed it before it could be completely destroyed later on. So there isnt even a definite possibility that the time bomb was even effected by the feat at all.
Except, where is this proven to be the case? Or even remotely stated? That is the problem with this point. Your argument is assuming that Alien X inputted his own energy into the time bomb and this is also using the assumption that the bomb was even effected by the reset in the first place. Which, again, also doesnt make any sense for reason's I already explained. The Annilaarg's feat cannot effect something that is comparable or superior to it's own power, evidenced by Alien X being completely unaffected by it. This bomb is a 2-B level device.
>This is similar to other character discussions on this site. If a person can gather energy to create a star, they can also gather that energy and use it in a punch. I remember there being a discussion thread regarding this.
This is not the same thing as what we are talking about here. That discussion was about how strong characters would be for creating entire structures with their energy, like planets, universes or dimensions. Not restoring objects within said universes, and even then, creation isn't automatically scaled to characters. It is treated on a case by case basis for each character and each verse. To give an example of this, lets take Porunga from Dragon Ball Z. Porunga is a 5-B for him restoring the earth to its original state after Majin Buu destroyed it. Porunga didnt just restore the earth either, he also brought all of the people Buu killed back to life. This includes the likes of Son Goha, Piccolo, Son Gote, Trunks, Krilli, Tien Shinha, Android 18 and so on. Porunga isn't considered a High 4-C just because he brought mutliple High 4-C's back to life. This is the same for Alien X and the Bomb, again, assuming the bomb got effected to begin with.
>In regards to the CTB's erasure, Ben, Serena, and Bellicus state that the erasure couldn't be stopped
This was never said in the clip. And its obviously wrong since Ben asked them if Alien X could fix the universe and Serena replied with yes since Alien X can do "many things".
>and they had to recreate everything afterward.
Yes, but as I proven in the last part of my previous reply, the Annilaargh didnt completely destroy the universe yet before Ben restored it. I'll continue this below.
>Ben recreated the universe in Season 1. Eon didn't appear until Season 2. Vilgax makes his first appearance in Season 3. Vilgax doesn't use the bomb until Season 6. Ben's trial was later in season 6.
This doesn't prove the time bomb was in the prime universe when Ben did his Low 2-C feat. All this explains is that Vilgax had the time bomb but didnt use it until a later season of Omniverse.
>I'm pretty sure bombs are allowed to have lower durability than their AP. We even give the CTB an Unknown durability. Beating a hammer against a bomb would not end well for anyone.
Im not just talking about durability though. If the bombs 2-B energy is constant as you claimed it is, then anything under 2-B would be incapable of effecting it at all. Which would include the Annilaargh and the recreation of the universe, which is only Low 2-C.
The only possible way that this bomb would be able to be effected by a Low 2-C feat (destruction, recreation, and otherwise) would be if the bomb's power isnt actually constant. That it only actively draws energy from its 2-B power source when its actually activated by the one who uses it. Which would still mean that Alien X doesn't scale to its power. So you would have to make a choice. If the time bombs energy is constant, then Alien X doesnt scale because of 2-B energy being > a Low 2-C feats effects. But if the time bombs energy isnt constant and must be actively dwelled upon when actually activated, then Alien X doesnt scale since he would only be effecting the time bomb when it powerless.
And this is not the end of the issues. Like I proven before, the prime universe was not completely destroyed before Ben used Alien X to restore it. It was still in the middle of being destroyed, Ben just fixed it before it could be completely destroyed later on. So there isnt even a definite possibility that the time bomb was even effected by the feat at all.
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Except, where is this proven to be the case? Or even remotely stated? That is the problem with this point. Your argument is assuming that Alien X inputted his own energy into the time bomb and this is also using the assumption that the bomb was even effected by the reset in the first place. Which, again, also doesnt make any sense for reason's I already explained. The Annilaarg's feat cannot effect something that is comparable or superior to it's own power, evidenced by Alien X being completely unaffected by it. This bomb is a 2-B level device.
Why are you assuming that the bomb has a high level of durability? The current profile even states an unknown durability. A bomb's AP and Durability don't need to be the same.
This was never said in the clip. And its obviously wrong since Ben asked them if Alien X could fix the universe and Serena replied with yes since Alien X can do "many things".
Yes, but as I proven in the last part of my previous reply, the Annilaargh didnt completely destroy the universe yet before Ben restored it. I'll continue this below.
Ben 10 Omniverse - So Long, and Thanks for All the Smoothies
You agree that Vilgax has the bomb. Vilgax can't move about the timestream without Eon's help. Eon wasn't introduced in Omniverse until season 3. Vilgax didn't team up with Eon until Season 6.
Why are you assuming that the bomb has a high level of durability? The current profile even states an unknown durability. A bomb's AP and Durability don't need to be the same.
This was never said in the clip. And its obviously wrong since Ben asked them if Alien X could fix the universe and Serena replied with yes since Alien X can do "many things".
Yes, but as I proven in the last part of my previous reply, the Annilaargh didnt completely destroy the universe yet before Ben restored it. I'll continue this below.
Ben 10 Omniverse - So Long, and Thanks for All the Smoothies
- Ben: I know, right? I was too late to save the universe, so I used Alien X to make a whole new one.
- Starbeard: Ben Tennyson. Did you think you would escape our notice when you utilized your Celestialsapien form, Alien X, to recreate the entire universe and everything in it?
- Ben: I was too late to save the universe and everything in it from being destroyed, so I used Alien X to make an exact duplicate.
You agree that Vilgax has the bomb. Vilgax can't move about the timestream without Eon's help. Eon wasn't introduced in Omniverse until season 3. Vilgax didn't team up with Eon until Season 6.
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