Alice Margatroid stats

[DontTalk]

Yamatohime asked me on my opinion on this powers and stats revision of alice.

I will look at it myself tomorrow (too tired right now), but I thought that since I am not the only one on this wiki knowing touhou I can just start an open discussion about it. (Is better to make decisions with the community either way)

So what is your opinion on Alice stats and abilities?

 

[Promestein]

If she really is that closely comparable to Marisa, she'd be in the range of Small Country to Country level, right?

"At least City level" is the most conservative / safest tiering we can give her, though.

 

[DontTalk]

First point on abilities: I don't think being "a versatile magician, that has no specific strong or weak point in any area" should be interpreted as knowing a bit of every kind of magic. So except it is shown I would not give her manipulation of the 5 elements.

I can imagine Alice is comparable to Patchouli or Marisa (even though Marisas focus on firepower might give her an edge). Are there any statements that support that though?

Given that Alice holds back by a lot through her practical power that others witness in battle is likely below that of the others.

 

[Yamatohime]

About magic abilities. One of her spellcard is probably using fire element "Doll Cremation". If it's true she should know all other elements to be "magician without weaknesses" or otherwise she is countered by following Taosism circle of elements.

I doubt that Alice is powerful as "healthy" Patchy though. But she should be not realy far below.

 

[DontTalk]

The thing is to be without weakness you don't need advantage against every other element or something.

Basically having an appropiate counter strategy against it would suffice.

A weakness against water for her fire spells could be made up through particular doll manipulations. Maybe water resistent dolls or something.

The possibilites to close up weaknesses are great, so giving her abilities she has never shown to use are rather speculative in my opinion.

 

[Yamatohime]

Well, all we know about Touhou magic is that it follows Chinese circle of elements, barriers are non-elemental, lasers are probably too. Enhantments can be elemental or non-elemental based. So we could asume that she know all five elements to be without weaknesses (for example to make her doll water resistant) or she use barriers (which is too assumption).

Hong Meiling do not have weaknesses too... But she does not use magic.

 

[DontTalk]

Well, especially given that even if she could we wouldn't know how she can practically use the elements, I believe it isn't worth noting it in her abilities.

The really important question is if and how to powerscale, I guess.

 

[Yamatohime]

Yeah, I've read official manga and didn't find that Alice used any kind of direct elemental magic (even show she mentioned to increase protection from heat in T11). I think we should remove summoning though. By the way Marisa describe Alice's spells she can be unprepared for battle (basicaly Alice can't use a lot of dolls from time to time) - so probably Alice carry all her dolls on her.

Powerscaling is a little tricky though. She is hinted to be average in stats - both physicaly (she is the strongest of three magicans) and magicaly. But this knowledge means nothing since we can't determine average stats. Out of there we know that she fight with Marisa a lot...

 

[Yamatohime]

So, no ideas how we can aproximate tiers for Youmu, Kaguya and Alice?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

The thing with Touhou is that there is only 2 feats for Low-to-Mid tier, one for Fodder (City) and one for literal gods (Smol Country) so there isn't much place to anything between.

I honestly have doubts that Kaguya is only City while fellow Moon Princess are Star level but eh there isn't anything scaling her to them.

 

[SeiryuShin]

Alice's PC-98 background was retconned, so I don't think she should scale directly to Marisa


Patchouli is also implied to be more powerful, but mostly when not sick.

 

[Yamatohime]

PC Alice is much superior to majority of Win cast. Especialy with Grimoire. Win Alice is hinted to be average in everything and has no weakness as magician.