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Akame Ga Kill! Upgrades!

Jvando said:
I've read through the thread and I am leaning towards agreeing with rocker. I do not think we should give an individual a complete tier upgrade in physicals from an Environmental destruction feat that took prep time to complete. At best, Esdeath should get an "At most" with prep or "X-tier with environmental destruction".
Click to expand...
And people keep misunderstanding the feat still.

It's not a prep feat in terms of her own energy.

It's prep in that it required Esdeath to make 10,000 ice soldiers that powered the storm.

Esdeath casually without prep is able to make 4-8 and possibly up to 63 of those ice soldiers. That's not prep.

It's also not environmental destruction otherwise all other storm feats would be enviornmental destruction, her creating a storm utilizing KE is no different than the other storm feats we have that give an AP rating.

Also, this doesn't scale to her physicals except for her amped Key where she demonstrably shows she's been amped as her physical strength has better feats comparable to her ice.
 
Isn't this too inconsistent with the scale of everything else shown in the series?
 
>That's because it's an internal explosion, the energy for the cannon gathers from inside the mech.

The explosion is contained given that it's properly expelled.

An example is when Bee sets off a Bijuudama in the Juubi. The Bijuudama swallow mountains yet the size is not that of a mountain. It's still the same AP obviously, but the explosion size is smaller since it was self-contained.

This doesnt work at all, the beam fires from slightly away from the teigu not literally inside it.

>The lasers can move as they're attached to the mech's eyes.

Also, you can see there is difference in the smoke that Tatsumi is emitting from his body (the streamlined smoke) which is in blue and the energy that is around Tatsumi in the bottom panels.

He goes through the energy beam.

Sorry but I genuinely do not see a difference. It simply looks like more smoke as he gets closer.

>But you've never provided scans for this stance.

And this doesn't country Amped Esdeath.

Random Elites destroying and holding down the calvary which I provided above
 
Antvasima said:
Isn't this too inconsistent with the scale of everything else shown in the series?
Click to expand...
No, only Esdeath and Akame scale at their absolute peaks and no-one scales from that.

At best you could potentially try to argue Tyrant Tatsumi, Tatsumi's peak.

It's isolated to the literaly peak of the God-Tiers of the series.
 
Rocker1189 said:
This doesnt work at all, the beam fires from slightly away from the teigu not literally inside it.
Click to expand...
The energy gathers from inside as my scan shows, the mech powers and sends energy to the cannon ports.

Sorry but I genuinely do not see a difference. It simply looks like more smoke as he gets closer.
Tatsumi Smoke
Smoke and Energy Difference

Well that is your opinion, but you can't deny the artistic difference of the smoke around Tatsumi and then the discolored lines around him that match the coloring of the energy beams.
Random Elites destroying and holding down the calvary which I provided above
Random amped elites that were by the dozens.

Could you explain how this disproves the notion?
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
The energy gathers from inside as my scan shows, the mech powers and sends energy to

Tatsumi Smoke
Smoke and Energy Difference

Well that is your opinion, but you can't deny the artistic difference of the smoke around Tatsumi and then the discolored lines around him that match the coloring of the energy beams.
Random amped elites that were by the dozens.

Could you explain how this disproves the notion?
Click to expand...
Its not about where the energy gathers from its about where it forms which is outside of the teigu you literally see the ball forming right outside of it.

Sorry but again the both look the same to me, and that one panel is faar to vague to make anything from it.

Maybe the fact that scream certainly wont amp these elites to tier 6 levels of power? from whatever tier they should be? I doubt these guys are even tier 7 on their own.
 
Imade agrees, and DT hasn't given a final response. I also agree with her scaling to it. Imade has demonstrated that stage 4 tatsumi scales to purge mode, has successfully defended his durability point, and shown esdeath oneshoting a much stronger tatsumi.
 
In terms of the preparation of Ice Calvary wasn't it mentationed that they went through rigous training? Because that could also account for the prep time.
 
Rocker1189 said:
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
The energy gathers from inside as my scan shows, the mech powers and sends energy to

Tatsumi Smoke
Smoke and Energy Difference

Well that is your opinion, but you can't deny the artistic difference of the smoke around Tatsumi and then the discolored lines around him that match the coloring of the energy beams.
Random amped elites that were by the dozens.

Could you explain how this disproves the notion?
Click to expand...
Its not about where the energy gathers from its about where it forms which is outside of the teigu you literally see the ball forming right outside of it.
Sorry but again the both look the same to me, and that one panel is faar to vague to make anything from it.

Maybe the fact that scream certainly wont amp these elites to tier 6 levels of power? from whatever tier they should be? I doubt these guys are even tier 7 on their own.
Click to expand...
Yes, and the explosion is still self-contained because it's not allowed to expel forward properly, this stops the explosions from extending as it naturally would.

Well that is your opinion, but as the art shows there is a difference in the smoke and the lines by Tatsumi in the bottom panel match up with the energy beams.

It's literally shown to be dozens holding down singular Ice Calvary, and the ampe from Scream is unknown for how high it goes, so you're not disproving the point. And elite soldiers of the verse have been shown to be Tier 7.
 
I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.
 
Antvasima said:
Isn't this too inconsistent with the scale of everything else shown in the series?
Click to expand...
It kinda is

Even if we were to completely sway everyone to the idea that Shikoutaser or the storm feat being legit, it's a junk from High 7A to 6B, which is a massive outlier.

Both feats have to be legit for this to be consistent and both feats have issues brought up repeatedly in this thread.
 
Why This Isn't Environmental Destruction

I will now make a case as to why this feat is not environmental destruction as it was previously thought to be.

For starters, it's a standard KE storm creation feat.

It is no different than our Bleach and Naruto storm calcs that give an AP rating.

It is just as applicable in AP as their's. In both Naruto and Bleach, the casters provided the energy needed to create their storms and Esdeath does the exact same thing:

Esdeath's Ice Manipulation is Energy Based

As it is shown multiple times throughout the series, Esdeath's ice powers are based on an internal energy, her own power. She supplies the ice with her own energy that gives them their power.

Ice Storm: Commander-in-Chief Relies on Energy
In order to make the storm, Esdeath did require prep as it required the energy stored in her Ice Calvary in order to be made. Esdeath's words:

"I've been crafting the Ice Calvary for days now. Which means, in one go, I've poured back into myself all that power I've been storing elsewhere..."

To form IS:CIC, Esdeath required the stored energy of her Ice Calvary which as shown above ar made using her own energy and power.

How Many Ice Calvary Did It Require and How Many Can She Make Casually?
Esdeath explicitly made ten thousand of them.

Casually, Esdeath was able to make 4 with a snap of her finger, and possibly 8 at a time up to 63 in a short unknown time when demonstrating to the Emperor.

Esdeath could casually supply 4/10,000th, 8/10,000th or 63/10,000th of the energy needed to make the storm. She does not scale to the full yield of the storm, only a fraction that she could casually display.

Look Over of Environmental Destruction
Environmental Destruction describes a character's capability to damage and destroy an area around themselves, but not necessarily their capacity to realistically harm their opponent. In practice, this is essentially a non-combat applicable Attack Potency; if a character is able to cause weather phenomena or natural disasters without any reasoning that can support their other statistics being at this level of destructive potency, then they should have trouble or lack the capacity to use these powers to damage characters in comparable tiers.

That is not to say environmental destruction feats cannot be applied to Attack Potency, Durability, and Striking Strength by any means. This is merely the result of case-by-case analysis, and depending on the context of the feat, may be a defining feat of a verse in question.

As I've shown above, Esdeath is able to consolidate her energy into her ice as she was able to consolidate the energy needed to power her High 6-A storm with 10,000 of her ice creation. She is able to display being able to make a fraction of that number casually, so she scales to that fraction of energy as her powers are energy based.
 
Schnee One said:
Antvasima said:
Isn't this too inconsistent with the scale of everything else shown in the series?
Click to expand...
It kinda is
Even if we were to completely sway everyone to the idea that Shikoutaser or the storm feat being legit, it's a junk from High 7A to 6B, which is a massive outlier.

Both feats have to be legit for this to be consistent and both feats have issues brought up repeatedly in this thread.
Click to expand...
That's misleading, there are no issues brought up with the High 7-A feat, no one has displayed issues with it.

Also, th math for both 6-B and High 6-B aren't contested, it's just the scaling that some have issues with that is being currently discussed.

Also, the jumps are not that big a problem given the numerous power-ups in the final battle.

Shikouteizer upgrades to Purge Mode.

Tatsumi goes from Stage 2 to Winged Stage 2 to Stage 3 to Stage 4 to Tyrant Tatsumi.

Esdeath gets amped from ISCIC.

Akame gets amped from her Trump Card.

There isn't an issue with consistency thanks to the numerous power jumps on the isolated God Tiers of the verse.
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
That's misleading, there are no issues brought up with the High 7-A feat, no one has displayed issues with it.
Click to expand...
Actually I do have issues with it but that was going to be if I did an overall AGK scaling thread.
 
I'm not a fan of compromises as those tend to be inaccurate as two sides couldn't agree.

Either way, it would be something like Possibly High 6-B to 6-A since the range is 4 or 8 to potentially 63 out of the 10,000.
 
Well I think compromises are great when two sides with valid arguments can't agree, I mean it's why terms like "Possibly" and "Likely" exist to begin with, to explain that the character could be either rating

I don't think a compromise is a loss or innacurate, nothing is absolute in fiction anyways
 
There should be no possibly 6-B, there should be no tier 6 at all.

Shikotauzer, the most powerful teigu has only high 7-A AP with its energy blasts only. It would be ridiculous to assume Esdeath is somehow above that without proper feats. Storm feat isn't enough. Why are we allowing tier jumps via storm feats at all?

No one ever tanked high 7-A blasts, Tatsumi didn't tank it, Shikotauzer itself never tanked This issue is so simple yet it takes this much discussion just because one stubborn and biased fan can't agree with the downgrade.
 
DemonGodMitchAubin said:
Well I think compromises are great when two sides with valid arguments can't agree, I mean it's why terms like "Possibly" and "Likely" exist to begin with, to explain that the character could be either rating
I don't think a compromise is a loss or innacurate, nothing is absolute in fiction anyways
Click to expand...
Not fan, but I guess I'm not opposed to it; however, I still support the High 6-B and possibly 6-A scaling from her Ice Calvary and Storm.
 
Shikouteizer has had it's own 6-B calc since forever, dude. You're just coming across as stubborn by trying to be objective.

Too bad no one ever tanked it and no one scales to it other than Shikotauzer with certain energy blast.
 
I personally prefer Death Battle's approach, however I know that it won't fly over here, so since this is going on and on I'll throw my support into the compromised high 6B and possibly 6A ideas.

Because even if she scales in part to a portion of her own power it'll at least make sense.
 
Here I provide scans for my stance that show Shikouteizer tanking it's own blast

You should've provided scans where the explosion occuired.Here is the scan where it supposedly tanked the explosion from the inside. And as you can clearly see the explosion was only charging and the explosion itself was tiny AF.And it wasn't an internal blasts, the explosion occuired outside.

This , or this =/= this.

and Stage 4 overpowering the energy beam.

The beam you are talking about isn't tier 6 and you can't prove it unless you calc.
 
Alright so since the staff members disagree with Esdeath scaling to her power then we should find what we should have her as

Option 1: have the tier be used as enviromental destruction

Option 2: give the storm "x-tier with prep time"

So which we going with?
 
Option 2 is good.


To elaborate: AP of a full ISCIC with preparation, as a mere attack potency feat, and does not scale to her own durability.
 
Slacjow said:
Here I provide scans for my stance that show Shikouteizer tanking it's own blast
You should've provided scans where the explosion occuired.Here is the scan where it supposedly tanked the explosion from the inside. And as you can clearly see the explosion was only charging and the explosion itself was tiny AF.And it wasn't an internal blasts, the explosion occuired outside.

This , or this =/= this.

and Stage 4 overpowering the energy beam.

The beam you are talking about isn't tier 6 and you can't prove it unless you calc.
Click to expand...
You're being misleading because you're leaving out the fact that the explosion is contained by the feathers premptively stopping it from firing forwards. Of course the explosion is visually smaller. But all that energy to power the Supreme Cannon still exploded on Shikouteizer.

The beam is Tier 6, that's where the calc is from.
 
BlackeJan said:
Alright so since the staff members disagree with Esdeath scaling to her power then we should find what we should have her as
Option 1: have the tier be used as enviromental destruction

Option 2: give the storm "x-tier with prep time"

So which we going with?
Click to expand...
We still have staff that agreed, so this is still up for discussion.

Also, once again people are spreading the misinformation that Esdeath's rating requires prep-time.

The storm requires prep time from making 10,000 Ice Calvary.

Esdeath herself does not since she can casually make 8 to 63 out of the 10,000.
 
No...no one agreed to it. Legit Schnee, Ant, Jvando, Jasonsmith disagreed with her scaling to the storm and a few even considered it a bit of an outlier, which is 3 staff members and 1 headmaster. Not only that but this shouldnt get a pass since iirc ive seen profiles that dont scale to storm attacks even though they were the ones that caused it
 
Schnee and Jvando disagree, however I did correct Jvando's line of reasoning since he believes it to be on prep which is the largest misconception in the thread currently.

Jasonsmith and Ant haven't provided an opinion yet, Ant left the thread suggesting compromises and questions, not an opinion.

Plus, we still had staff from the start agreeing like Qaws, Elizaaha, and Mitch who currently still agrees.

Stop trying to rush your stance or at least provide scans for your stance.
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
Why This Isn't Environmental Destruction

I will now make a case as to why this feat is not environmental destruction as it was previously thought to be.

For starters, it's a standard KE storm creation feat.

It is no different than our Bleach and Naruto storm calcs that give an AP rating.

It is just as applicable in AP as their's. In both Naruto and Bleach, the casters provided the energy needed to create their storms and Esdeath does the exact same thing:

Esdeath's Ice Manipulation is Energy Based

As it is shown multiple times throughout the series, Esdeath's ice powers are based on an internal energy, her own power. She supplies the ice with her own energy that gives them their power.

Ice Storm: Commander-in-Chief Relies on Energy
In order to make the storm, Esdeath did require prep as it required the energy stored in her Ice Calvary in order to be made. Esdeath's words:

"I've been crafting the Ice Calvary for days now. Which means, in one go, I've poured back into myself all that power I've been storing elsewhere..."

To form IS:CIC, Esdeath required the stored energy of her Ice Calvary which as shown above ar made using her own energy and power.

How Many Ice Calvary Did It Require and How Many Can She Make Casually?
Esdeath explicitly made ten thousand of them.

Casually, Esdeath was able to make 4 with a snap of her finger, and possibly 8 at a time up to 63 in a short unknown time when demonstrating to the Emperor.

Esdeath could casually supply 4/10,000th, 8/10,000th or 63/10,000th of the energy needed to make the storm. She does not scale to the full yield of the storm, only a fraction that she could casually display.

Look Over of Environmental Destruction
Environmental Destruction describes a character's capability to damage and destroy an area around themselves, but not necessarily their capacity to realistically harm their opponent. In practice, this is essentially a non-combat applicable Attack Potency; if a character is able to cause weather phenomena or natural disasters without any reasoning that can support their other statistics being at this level of destructive potency, then they should have trouble or lack the capacity to use these powers to damage characters in comparable tiers.

That is not to say environmental destruction feats cannot be applied to Attack Potency, Durability, and Striking Strength by any means. This is merely the result of case-by-case analysis, and depending on the context of the feat, may be a defining feat of a verse in question.

As I've shown above, Esdeath is able to consolidate her energy into her ice as she was able to consolidate the energy needed to power her High 6-A storm with 10,000 of her ice creation. She is able to display being able to make a fraction of that number casually, so she scales to that fraction of energy as her powers are energy based.

Bringing this back up because people still keep believing the misconception of prep for Esdeath's High 6-B scaling. The High 6-A 250 petatons for Ice Storm does require prep, but the High 6-B does not as explained.
Click to expand...
 
The beam is Tier 6, that's where the calc is from.

Can you link both the feat in the manga and the link to the calculated feat?If you mean this then you are wrong again, this laser isn't tier 6. Just because it isn't, there is no calc for it and it never destroyed anything.

Of course the explosion is visually smaller. But all that energy to power the Supreme Cannon still exploded on Shikouteizer.

Yeah, again: This , or this =/= this. And the explosion occuired outside not inside as you said earlier.

All in all, I completely disagree with Tier 6 anything other than Shikotauzer with its nukes only if the calculation is right.And arguing at this point is pointless we are going in circles.Literally only I, Rocker and IMade are arguing on this properly.

First off, there is only one proper tier 6 feat and its from certain energy blast of the Shikotauzer, which no one ever tanked or overpowered (explained multiple times by me and Rocker). There are also other namless random small explosions but they are barely tier 7.

The other tier 6 feat is prep based Ice Storm which requires A LOT of assumptions to be used and scale properly.

Shikotauzer should be tier 6 or high 7-A with its nuke only, there are two calcs if I am not mistaken and both are right. And physically it should be below both of these since it never tanked any properly,so its physical feats would scale to whatever Tatsumi scales physically.

Esdeath and Tatsumi should scale to whatever feats they have (other than Storm feat), none of them scales to Shikotauzer's nukes for obvious reasons.
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
Schnee and Jvando disagree, however I did correct Jvando's line of reasoning since he believes it to be on prep which is the largest misconception in the thread currently.
Jasonsmith and Ant haven't provided an opinion yet, Ant left the thread suggesting compromises and questions, not an opinion.

Plus, we still had staff from the start agreeing like Qaws, Elizaaha, and Mitch who currently still agrees.

Stop trying to rush your stance or at least provide scans for your stance.
Click to expand...
They have. Look above and see what they have said
 
Ant: This seems to be a good point. Perhaps we should keep this attack as environmental damage only, that does not scale to any characters in terms of practical physical attacks?

Schnee One: I am in agreement with Rocker, I don't think Esdeath scales to the Cannon or the Storm. BTW saying that shotting a Cannon means tanking it's Durability is false. Fate Servants use High 6C attacks in their 6C states and Mami from Madoka Magica has Guns that shoot 7A bullets. Surviving recoil isn't Durability

Jvando: I've read through the thread and I am leaning towards agreeing with rocker. I do not think we should give an individual a complete tier upgrade in physicals from an Environmental destruction feat that took prep time to complete. At best, Esdeath should get an "At most" with prep or "X-tier with environmental destruction".

Jasonsmith: Option 2 is good. To elaborate: AP of a full ISCIC with preparation, as a mere attack potency feat, and does not scale to her own durability.

Also just saying but since its been close to a week, the people u mention like Quas and Elizaah need to reaffirm their stance on this since again that was in the last thread (u cant say anyhting either cause u have pulled this off before as well) and also Mitch isnt a staff but a calc member
 
After a read through I'll reweigh in

  • I think Tats overpowering the small lasers shouldn't be the reasoning for his tier. They're to small and don't do any notable damage to suggest they're as powerful as the chest beam
  • I do think Wave causing the chest cannon to self-detonate scales to the Mechas durability. The offical translation says he stopped it and the Mechas withstanding the self-detonation is just a standard durability feat.
  • The High 6-A rating would be with prep time, but that was covered in the OP originally. I still think Esdeath being rated High 6-B is fine. But if its really impossible to move on then something like "6-B, likely High 6-B, possibly 6-A" works on my end.
 
>Also just saying but since its been close to a week, the people u mention like Quas and Elizaah need to reaffirm their stance on this since again that was in the last thread (u cant say anyhting either cause u have pulled this off before as well) and also Mitch isnt a staff but a calc member

You know Calc members are still staff?

Jasonsmith is a calc member, he's still staff.

Also that's a bit concerning how you're accussing me, but I'll ignore it.
 
Calc Members are calc members meant for veryfuing if calcs are legit

They are not staff viable for reaffirming CRT threads no offense
 
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