-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Kamen rider black vs esdeath
- Thread starter Artorimachi_Meteoraft
- Start date
- 4,998
- 2,860
I don't blame you for it, most profiles don't make the distinction but the description given definitely isn't referring to physical stamina
I'm of the opinion that Esdeath's feats give her a very significant advantage in combat as well as tactics unless feats for rider are brought forward. She also has the advantage via ranged options by AoE flash freezing, ice projectiles, pseudo-flight. What she goes for would depend on what she thinks about Kamen rider, how strong he is.
They aren't actually the same, Esdeath's ice/cold isn't magic. She drank the blood of a demon that controls ice. I think Najenda also mentioned that she freezes water vapor in the air, the ice doesn't just magically appear. He needs to be able to null natural elements (energy not included) for us to even have this convo.
Also, are gestures required to use keystone flash? If yes, I don't see how he does so while frozen.
Is resistance to Light Manipulation even a thing? Either your eyes are accustomed to really bright light or you just close your eyes. It ain't something to resist.
Sure she prolongs baytles sometimes but it's not like she forgets the main goal neither does she let here sadism interfere with it. Even in the case of prolonging battles it's not the Goku kind but rather inflicting the worse possible torture on you (Tatsumi's case is special and he also had insane RE that piqued her interest).
They're not directly the same
One or the other or she'll use both
Not much, just that the match still isn't in riders favor at all
- 1,762
- 1,071
There is absolutely no reason on why Kingstone Flash wouldn't nullify ice powers. That's not how Power Nullification works in this specific case. Kingstone Flash explicitely nullifies the power the enemy is using, whether be energy attacks, poison, illusions, mind control, electricity, even entire pocket dimensions, and yes there is resistance to light manipulation, closing eyes won't help you to avoid a massive flash, it is nature. Black for most of the time does starts with this move even when dealing with fodder Gorgom monsters. And yes, the Kingstone is literally about giving infinite energy for Black continue battling, heck, that works even after he was killed by Crisis Empire when he absorbed cosmic radiation to mutate itself.
- 1,762
- 1,071
That's not how it works. She is still statistically lower than Black's amps, unless there are multipliers like Black has to determine how many times she is stronger than those folks.
Kingstone is his literal life and soul, which has infinite energy. Unless Esdeath has NPI that works on both soul and life, she cannot affect the Kingstone.
That's durability negation from the type Black just outright resists. Techniques that melts, shatters or disintegrate corpses, whether from outside or inside are things he already has resisted in the past, plus freezing something solid is what every negative temperature. Nothing stops him to burst out from the ice even if Black himself doesn't want to.
It does not and it already happened to him before.
He absolutely can, is not even about the Satansaber, is right after Black beats Shadow Moon and the Creation King tells him to rip out his Kingstone (i.e. life/soo
Not their problem.
- 1,762
- 1,071
Black's enhanced senses outrange anything that Esdeath is allowed here (as Ice Storm Commander-in-Chief is definitely not High 6-C). He has better versatility through his own acrobatics (as her profile has no instances of such) and the usage of Battle Hopper and Road Sector
It kinda is tbh, I'll do a more detailed post after I'm back from gym.
- 4,998
- 2,860
Except Esdeath's powers fit into none of that.
How does it relate to physical stamina?
None of that actually matches up with Esdeath's form of dura neg so he doesn't resist. There's a difference between encasing someone in ice and actually freezing them solid. Have you seen what happens to stuff put into liquid nitrogen? They just shatter and that's what her ice does, he isn't bursting out unless his resistance accounts for that level of ice manipulation.
See above
Does this kingstone have some kind of form?
Punch kick merchant deciding to jump into the air against someone with ranged attacks sounds like a perfect plan. Even with acrobatics, one's movement in the air without footholds or flight is limited. Presence of acrobatics on his profile does not make him a better fighter. Enhanced senses range does little to nothing considering they're starting 20ft apart.
Looking forward to it.
- 4,817
- 2,255
esdeath for tatsumis reasons, i dont see black taking this
- 448
- 120
Kamen Rider Black For Reasons Above
- 1,773
- 472
I honestly don’t see how the Kingstone wouldn’t nullify Esdeath’s ice. Like, didn’t she get her powers from drinking a demon’s blood or something. The Kingstone has disabled demonic powers from someone like the demon Bilgenia before. It also disabled elemental attacks before, like, end of the day, ice is still ice and Kingstone would be able to nullify.
Also, to answer your question, the Kingstone is a person’s soul. It’s shown to be a ball of light whenever outside of a person’s body.
Also, to answer your question, the Kingstone is a person’s soul. It’s shown to be a ball of light whenever outside of a person’s body.
- 4,817
- 2,255
the difference is that the powernull has been of "energy"
What Esdeath's ice is elemental in nature similar to how liquid nitrogen works, and energy based powernulls do not work on elemental stuff so it wont be able to stop it
- 1,773
- 472
I mean like, Kotato’s dealt against elemental attacks before. The Mammoth Mutant failed to bypass Kotaro’s Super Stripes ability, which is just an extension of the Kingstone. So yeah, Kotaro has dealt with and nullifies elemental, ice base especially, abilities before. Agaisnt I don’t see how it wouldn’t be the same here. The argument was that it wouldn’t effect Esdeath cause her abilities are elemental based, correct? It has worked on elemental abilities.
- 4,998
- 2,860
Y'all aren't getting the point, it's not a matter of nullifying elemental abilities abilities.
It's not about being demonic or not need I say they are no demons in AGK. It's just a danger beast that was called a demon and it had the power to control ice.
Point is it doesn't conjure Ice from nowhere. Iirc, najenda was surprised at Esdeath being able to use her abilities in places with no water. Esdeath just freezes her surroundings, water bodies, water vapour in air. There is absolutely nothing to conventionally power null.
Saying he nullifies her Ice is the same as saying he has EE. If someone shot a water canon, raised the earth, blew compressed air at him, would it be nullified? You trying to tell me he can just disappear objects with no EE or Deconstruction or other stuff like that?
I also didn't get an answer to how kingstone flash is activated. Is it gesture based and if so, how is he moving when frozen.
What reasons exactly? None of the op hax is available to him, he can neither one shot nor out skill, has basically 0 range, is a punch kick merchant and his amps are basically equalled by Esdeath's massive upscaling.
Time to crack down on these FRA trains.
- 1,762
- 1,071
Back, was helping mom in lifting some weight. Knowing now that Black has the advantage in AP through Rider Kick and Rider Punch, and that the difference between the two in base is not enough to take one-shot, there are things to consider here.
Black also has the advantage in range. His sensory abilities range from 500 meters to 1 kilometer. Anything that happens in that area already enters Black's sensory perception, even more so since the two are only 6 meters apart, which is strange since the OP says they're out of sight, but anyway, not that that's a real problem for Black, Multi-Eye has effective enough X-ray vision to see through dark places, hidden opponents, shapeshifting, invisible objects, spirits or atmospheric changes. Alert Point works on an atmospheric scale and can hear the lowest whispers at a distance of 500 meters. His precognition/clairvoyance allows him to analyze the position and movement of his enemies, while instantly identifying his target's weaknesses. All of this is passive considering that it's his eyes and antennae that make him up, he's a giant grasshopper after all. Kingstone's Vital Charger is a vital/spiritual "mechanism" that will work regardless of Black's will, even if he's intimidated, desperate or afraid, it once happened in an act of desperation and Kingstone Flash activated automatically. That said, absolutely any move by Esdeath will be instantly calculated and analyzed.
Regardless of whether she uses ice, aura, or any other skills that require an activation or not, they will be within the Multi-Eye's range. Black also has the advantage in versatility, being able to jump up to 30 meters high, and make extensions with Battle Hopper and Road Sector, vehicles he can summon even from a 2-A realm. Road Sector also has its own precognition and analysis, identifying locations and the size of enemies/obstacles, and allowing Black to visualize his targets even without looking at them, detailing that this works even within a spatial distortion. Black can also sense the presence of an enemy through their bloodlust, so if she's in a similar state, it's another resource he can use to intercept attacks.
As for the ice manipulation, it's quite clear that Esdeath needs the movement factor from a considerable distance for most of the instances from her profile. The point is that Black has more than enough resources to escape from this, the Mammoth Mutant who was also able to create ice and ice weapons from nothing was unable to freeze Black permanently, even if by chance his body was frozen 100%, the Kingstone would still be active because it is a non-physical structure that is his soul. The Kingstone even manages to operate even after its destruction, such as when Kotaro was assassinated by the Crisis Empire, but it adapted to create a new form. Black was only killed by Shadow Moon because it hit his Kingstone, and because he is also a Century King, who has the ability to remove the Kingstone (life/soul) from another Century King.
Black has also withstood several instances of durability negation that are just as effective, if not even more so, than Esdeath's ice manipulation, corrosive/deconstructive abilities have already been used (Cactus, Mole Cricket, Fly) didn't work. Satansaber, which is able to cut through space-time, also doesn't work properly against Black other than giving him wounds he can still regenerate, despite negating Battle Hopper's regeneration. Skills that alter the entire physical structure of a target, such as Scarab Beetle's gold manipulation, don't work either. From what I see here, her ice manipulation is an amalgamation of temperature manipulation, status induction (by consequently weakening the opponent when frozen), and deconstruction (by shattering into small pieces objects that are caught by the ice), and of these things, the only one I can see working on Black is the weakening, but for the reasons above, because Kingstone works regardless of Black's mental state, this wouldn't be a real hindrance. It's worth remembering that Black can take several attacks from enemies with the same abilities as him, such as Shadow Moon, who can also attack an opponent's vital points and weaken targets.
Black also has the ability to escape to the Mirror World (again, a 2-A realm) when in trouble, via mirrors or reflective surfaces, a power that is shared with Riders like Skyrider and the Ryuki Riders. Of course, only when necessary, since the Kingstone and its senses will already help against any obstacle automatically.
Time Stop is out of the question for reasons on both sides, because of Esdeath's limited use, but also because Black's resistance to time manipulation is much better and more effective.
Black also has the resources to get rid of Aura, even without Kingstone Flash (which would be more than enough). Flea Mutant's Coward Hormone, an ability that didn't work on Black, consisted of increasing people's fear to the point where they became insane and committed suicide. Murderous intentions, as seen above, don't intimidate Black, but they do alert him, which only favors him in the use of his enhanced senses.
What remains is her afterimage creation, which Black can see through with Multi-Eye, and analytical prediction, which can be useful but doesn't make up for much with all the advantages Black has above. His AD might allow him to adapt through the usage of both's abilities, as when he transformed for the first time, he could use his new abilities with no issue.
Funny thing though. Black can summon the Satansaber as he did in the series' finale, the sword is compatible to the nature of a Century King. Shadow Moon had gotten the sword first, which made Black unable to use it, but yeah, as long as this is not an issue from that time, then he can indeed summon it.
Black also has the advantage in range. His sensory abilities range from 500 meters to 1 kilometer. Anything that happens in that area already enters Black's sensory perception, even more so since the two are only 6 meters apart, which is strange since the OP says they're out of sight, but anyway, not that that's a real problem for Black, Multi-Eye has effective enough X-ray vision to see through dark places, hidden opponents, shapeshifting, invisible objects, spirits or atmospheric changes. Alert Point works on an atmospheric scale and can hear the lowest whispers at a distance of 500 meters. His precognition/clairvoyance allows him to analyze the position and movement of his enemies, while instantly identifying his target's weaknesses. All of this is passive considering that it's his eyes and antennae that make him up, he's a giant grasshopper after all. Kingstone's Vital Charger is a vital/spiritual "mechanism" that will work regardless of Black's will, even if he's intimidated, desperate or afraid, it once happened in an act of desperation and Kingstone Flash activated automatically. That said, absolutely any move by Esdeath will be instantly calculated and analyzed.
Regardless of whether she uses ice, aura, or any other skills that require an activation or not, they will be within the Multi-Eye's range. Black also has the advantage in versatility, being able to jump up to 30 meters high, and make extensions with Battle Hopper and Road Sector, vehicles he can summon even from a 2-A realm. Road Sector also has its own precognition and analysis, identifying locations and the size of enemies/obstacles, and allowing Black to visualize his targets even without looking at them, detailing that this works even within a spatial distortion. Black can also sense the presence of an enemy through their bloodlust, so if she's in a similar state, it's another resource he can use to intercept attacks.
As for the ice manipulation, it's quite clear that Esdeath needs the movement factor from a considerable distance for most of the instances from her profile. The point is that Black has more than enough resources to escape from this, the Mammoth Mutant who was also able to create ice and ice weapons from nothing was unable to freeze Black permanently, even if by chance his body was frozen 100%, the Kingstone would still be active because it is a non-physical structure that is his soul. The Kingstone even manages to operate even after its destruction, such as when Kotaro was assassinated by the Crisis Empire, but it adapted to create a new form. Black was only killed by Shadow Moon because it hit his Kingstone, and because he is also a Century King, who has the ability to remove the Kingstone (life/soul) from another Century King.
Black has also withstood several instances of durability negation that are just as effective, if not even more so, than Esdeath's ice manipulation, corrosive/deconstructive abilities have already been used (Cactus, Mole Cricket, Fly) didn't work. Satansaber, which is able to cut through space-time, also doesn't work properly against Black other than giving him wounds he can still regenerate, despite negating Battle Hopper's regeneration. Skills that alter the entire physical structure of a target, such as Scarab Beetle's gold manipulation, don't work either. From what I see here, her ice manipulation is an amalgamation of temperature manipulation, status induction (by consequently weakening the opponent when frozen), and deconstruction (by shattering into small pieces objects that are caught by the ice), and of these things, the only one I can see working on Black is the weakening, but for the reasons above, because Kingstone works regardless of Black's mental state, this wouldn't be a real hindrance. It's worth remembering that Black can take several attacks from enemies with the same abilities as him, such as Shadow Moon, who can also attack an opponent's vital points and weaken targets.
Black also has the ability to escape to the Mirror World (again, a 2-A realm) when in trouble, via mirrors or reflective surfaces, a power that is shared with Riders like Skyrider and the Ryuki Riders. Of course, only when necessary, since the Kingstone and its senses will already help against any obstacle automatically.
Time Stop is out of the question for reasons on both sides, because of Esdeath's limited use, but also because Black's resistance to time manipulation is much better and more effective.
Black also has the resources to get rid of Aura, even without Kingstone Flash (which would be more than enough). Flea Mutant's Coward Hormone, an ability that didn't work on Black, consisted of increasing people's fear to the point where they became insane and committed suicide. Murderous intentions, as seen above, don't intimidate Black, but they do alert him, which only favors him in the use of his enhanced senses.
What remains is her afterimage creation, which Black can see through with Multi-Eye, and analytical prediction, which can be useful but doesn't make up for much with all the advantages Black has above. His AD might allow him to adapt through the usage of both's abilities, as when he transformed for the first time, he could use his new abilities with no issue.
Occam's Razor. The Kingstone Flash doesn't need to explicitly show working against a specific power so it can work, that's argument from ignorance. The description of the attack itself is deflecting attacks. Targets can no longer use their abilities after they're exposed to it, it could nullify the whole energy from a being's body, mind control, paralysis, restriction, and even Shadow Moon's spiritual pocket dimension. Esdeath has no resistance to power null on her profile, so there is absolutely no reason why she wouldn't be affected.
Maybe it's due to being the fundamental structure of his body (life/soul) and the reason he's done everything he's done in all his appearances in the franchise?
Yes, it resists, again, disintegration, cuts that affect space-time, freezing, paralysis, status induction... Black does have an answer for this, her ability to be ice is irrelevant when the aftermath is essentially the same. And at no point did I indicate that both are the same, what's your point? I mentioned that Black has resistance to this because he has been through similar or even worse things, he has already resisted a manipulation of ice that was able to freeze him instantly, my point is that regardless of whether he is frozen or not, the Kingstone will remain active and will operate Black's body regardless of his will. There's no point in the ice shattering after N time or action (assuming the characters it has affected have resistance to ice, which so far I haven't seen), because the ice will be shattered... by the Kingstone.
Idem.
Yes, it is a spiritual and vital form that is suggested to operate on a universal scale by the energy of the sun.
Unironically, it is a good plan taking account everything I've pointed above, but he wouldn't even need that. And stop putting words in my mouth, I said he's more versatile, not that he's more skillful, and it's not just because of his acrobatics. And yes, it absolutely makes sense for enhanced senses to work regardless of distance as long as it's within their limits. Your point makes no sense here.
Irrelevant for what I pointed above.
Brother, what kind of comparison is this? One that it is not REMOTELY close to what is happening. There is not even a thing that resembles EE in her P&A section (something I could unironically argue for Black). But it seems like you didn't understand anything at all about how Kingstone Flash works (that is, if you bothered to read his P&A), this power simply NULLIFIES an individual's abilities, THAT'S IT, no mystery at all. It's not a series of actions and movements that Black does to prevent a specific set of abilities, he just nullifies them and that's it, there's no mystery at all. What a bizarre argument man, this isn't even remotely close to EE LMAO.
It operates in various ways depending on the occasion, but whether by speech or instinct, the Kingstone Flash can activate against Black's will when it senses he is in trouble.
Why are you literally lying...? He takes advantage in range, he has access to all of his hacks, and the Rider Kick/Punch exceeds Esdeath's AP value by almost three times.
People are just not convinced for your reasons.
Funny thing though. Black can summon the Satansaber as he did in the series' finale, the sword is compatible to the nature of a Century King. Shadow Moon had gotten the sword first, which made Black unable to use it, but yeah, as long as this is not an issue from that time, then he can indeed summon it.
Last edited:
- 1,762
- 1,071
It nullifies anything whether it is energy, matter or spiritual. And I don't know where did you pulled it is energy-based when that was never remotely implied on his series.
Last edited:
- 1,773
- 472
Your argument is now that Esdeath woudn’t be effected cause her ability allows her to freeze the air? Literally how does that change anything? you’re not explaining why Esdeath bypasses the Kingstone, you’re just Explaining to me how her abilities work. Also, the second paragraph is meaningless. The Kingstone is an ability that removes abilities. Shooting ice from a gun and creating ice via freezing air vapors is completely different.
The hand motion is simply just old tokusatsu work where characters do over the top hand movements. Kotaro has used his abilities when his hands are pinned. He even used the Kingstone while both his arms were tangled to the point where he couldn’t properly make contact with them. Also worth noting The Kingstone Flash is an ability that removes abilities and repels projectiles if range is not an option for esdeath. It does so with non-physical interaction that can even effect spirit and soul based abilities.
The hand motion is simply just old tokusatsu work where characters do over the top hand movements. Kotaro has used his abilities when his hands are pinned. He even used the Kingstone while both his arms were tangled to the point where he couldn’t properly make contact with them. Also worth noting The Kingstone Flash is an ability that removes abilities and repels projectiles if range is not an option for esdeath. It does so with non-physical interaction that can even effect spirit and soul based abilities.
Last edited:
- 1,773
- 472
Brother, when you said you’ll come back with some argumend I didn’t think you’ll come with awhile essay.
Also, we giving him the Satansaber? Cause you know, it helps massively. Cutting through Spacial dimensions, directly harming the soul, BFR. It give Kotaro so many more options to win.
- 19
- 7
Kamen FRA
- 19
- 7
- 3,890
- 3,037
For now
- 19
- 7
4-B vs Low 2-C goes hard 🗣For now
- 3,890
- 3,037
ZO low 2-C4-B vs Low 2-C goes hard 🗣
- 19
- 7
- 706
- 31
Kamen rider black FRA
- 22
- 0
WTF ?
power nullification doesn't work that way.
it work by nullify esdeath ability to control and manipulate Ice all together, he ability and power stuff.
heck even worse it have ability to reflect them first
also King stone flash active whenever it want whenever black ever need to, no hand movement needed
With how much you try to downplay black and doesn't seem to try t understand how kingstone flash work, yeah you can't see how he could win.
Last edited:
- 2,516
- 1,462
I got unlucky and was hindered from being able to use this forum for practically a day. I'm back to present a follow-up to the various additional concerns that were brought up about my analysis. I didn't read every message, but I still wanted to provide a retrospect of my initial analysis.
Before that, due to how debatable this match-up seems to be combined with how I'm not familiar with discussing either of the characters, I retract my vote for Kamen Rider Black winning the battle and I instead vote for the match being inconclusive.
Esdeath's freezing and tactics.
It was brought up that Esdeath freezing Kamen Rider Black would mean the latter's body would turn into ice rather than be trapped in ice, so due to the nature of Kamen Rider Black's resistance to ice manipulation, he would get himself killed for trying to get unfrozen. This was previously overlooked by me in this thread, because it means Kamen Rider Black's method of resisting ice specifically wouldn't work. However, I later realized that Kamen Rider Black resists petrification and deconstruction, which might prevent him from turning into ice and shattering.
Also, it was clarified that Esdeath's sadism doesn't distract her from goals involving defeating an opponent. Esdeath is considered as sadistic enough to try making her opponent die in the most painful way, and I don't think the most painful way for her to defeat Kamen Rider Black would be to immediately freeze him to death, so I wonder what prompts Esdeath to attempt to swiftly freeze someone to death in one attack.
Kamen Rider Black's Keystone Flash.
It was brought up that Esdeath's ice manipulation is from a demon ability to control the natural ice element, which isn't the same as Kamen Rider Black using Keystone Flash to nullify illusions, energy, electricity, and mind control. Even after I re-considered plenty of aspects of my analysis, I'm still not convinced that Keystone Flash wouldn't work on Esdeath's ice manipulation. Even though the examples Kamen Rider Black demonstrated aren't perfect matches to Esdeath's ice manipulation, power nullification isn't strictly limited by perfect matches involving what it has been shown to nullify, so I think Esdeath's ability is close enough to be weakened by Keystone Flash a bit at the very least. However, I've only seen Keystone Flash work against abilities that are already activated, so this seemingly isn't as effective as I initially proposed it was due to how Kamen Rider Black wouldn't have knowledge of Esdeath's ice manipulation before he would already be frozen. Keystone Flash seems to require a gesture as well.
Kamen Rider Black against fear.
It was brought up that Kamen Rider Black's resistances to sanity decreasing and to mind control aren't entirely the same as a resistance to a fear inducing aura, so Esdeath's aura would affect him. I'm not convinced that Kamen Rider Black's resistances are so detached that he couldn't be capable of defending himself from an ability that simply changes his emotion, but I will consider Kamen Rider Black as being scared by Esdeath's fearsome aura to an extent, because fear is indeed not exactly the same as sanity and direct mental autonomy.
Kamen Rider Black's "infinite" stamina.
It was brought up that Kamen Rider Black having infinite stamina could just refer to what stamina he has in reserve rather than what stamina he could use promptly and physically. It's confusing if the "Infinite" stamina rank on Kamen Rider Black's profile is secretly not combat applicable, despite how it's the only stamina rank, how its direct justification is the only justification for his stamina stat, and how it would certainly be downplay for Kamen Rider Black's immediately available stamina to be ranked as "Unknown" when he has gotten into many combat scenarios where he fights valiantly. I agree that the justification for infinite stamina seems vague. His Kingstone embedment having "infinite power" can mean a lot of things other than that he can never get tired, and it being his life and energy could refer to something other than stamina. However, if it weren't accepted by the VS Battles Wiki that Kamen Rider Black can use limitless stamina in a useful and combat applicable way, then it wouldn't be the only detail described on his profile concerning stamina, and it would instead be phrased and formatted in a more reasonable fashion like "Peak Human (He can fight supernatural entities in intense combat scenarios), likely/possibly up to Infinite (His Kingstone embedment has infinite power, so there is a good likelihood/possibility that he has an endless reserve of stamina and the potential to never get tired if he were to continue regaining stamina)." This isn't unbelievable, as if Kamen Rider Black doesn't have infinite immediate stamina, whoever implemented the "Infinite" rank might have been erroneously thinking that Kamen Rider Black's heavy usage of advanced technology supports the rank due to technology being inorganic, even though Kamen Rider Black isn't entirely mechanical, and machines don't inherently have infinite stamina anyway.
I have no problem with if someone were to make a content revision thread to update the Stamina section of Kamen Rider Black. Feel free to use what I have written to perform a refinement. As it stands, Kamen Rider Black's stamina, even if maybe overplayed, is considered as infinite by the VS Battles Wiki, so with me presuming that this ranking is relevant to versus battles, he could probably use it to his advantage in a battle against Esdeath if he were to last long enough.
Kamen Rider Black's skill against the Gorgom group.
It was brought up that the Gorgom group having 50,000 years of experience could've merely been them fighting tier 10-B policemen for all we know. I feel like the tier having been brought up was meant to imply the Gorgom group manipulated humanity through sheer power, and thus make it meaningless for me to have presented the evidence of the Gorgom group having manipulated humanity for 50,000 years. That way of going about what I did seems inaccurate to me.
The Gorgom group's manipulation of all of humanity is considered as the social influencing of its Creation King leader alone, and strength alone doesn't qualify for social influencing. Depending on your standards, a character frightening another because of how strong they are might count as social influencing, but even that doesn't coincide with the nature of the justification for social influencing that the Gorgom group has. The Creation King "manipulated human society from behind the scenes" so he was being clever about it rather than using sheer brute force. No matter if the police in the series are tier 10 or are stronger than Kamen Rider Black, the Gorgom group's 50,000 years of manipulating humanity isn't just a feat of physically fighting fodder cops that didn't challenge the group whatsoever "for all we know." It seems to me that the Gorgom group socially manipulated humanity for as long as it did through its political power rather than physical strength. That would include having been able to socially manipulate expert strategists and legal departments for rich companies, celebrities and governments, among other teams that would be difficult to plan the dominations of, yet the Gorgom group couldn't plan the successful domination of Kamen Rider Black.
Where I went wrong was forgetting that Kamen Rider Black often relied on hax to combat the Gorgom group, and not clarifying that the Gorgom group using terrorism means it wasn't sheer strategical skill they were using but rather strategical placements and timings of their attacks. This doesn't discount the Gorgom group's capabilities of using strategy to win on an international scale to some extent, and how Kamen Rider Black less often than otherwise can be portrayed as comparable to them despite just being a 19 year old individual. It's not as though any of this indicates that Kamen Rider Black is a strategy-meister. The evidence just counts as a lot more than insignificant quantity in an incomplete comparison fallacy vacuum of zero quality.
Of course, since I haven't watched Kamen Rider Black's story, I totally understand that it's possible that the series' lore didn't account for the underlying implications of what it presented and, beyond my knowledge, even the little strategical expertise I'm giving Kamen Rider Black credit for contextually shouldn't be the case. The Intelligence section of Kamen Rider Black's profile gives me the impression that my analysis is accurate, with it calling him a "genius" fighter who can escape in "any" situation. It's fair to be skeptical about those brief yet bold descriptions when evidence isn't linked nor cited to back them up aside from a few lesser feats in the Powers and Abilities section, but versus threads on the VS Battles Wiki Forum use the stances of the character profiles regardless of if they contain misinformation or not, so even in the worst case scenario where my verdict about Kamen Rider Black's skill is false, it would be better to make a content revision thread to improve the accepted information, rather than debate about it here.
Anyway, even in the case that Esdeath is the one with greater combat skill, Kamen Rider Black has ways of keeping up. For example, Esdeath's analytical prediction puts her ahead in the mind games in terms of skill, but Kamen Rider Black's readily available technology allows him to keep up using extrasensory perception and similar abilities.
Esdeath's range.
It was brought up that it would be in character for Esdeath to use her range from kilometers away. I don't doubt that, but the description should be more specific. Would it be in character for Esdeath to flee kilometers away from the opponent as soon as the battle would start and to begin using her long range to immediately freeze the opponent to death with nothing they can do about it? I'm asking in the sense that I want to know if this is the most likely course of action she would take against a random opponent like Kamen Rider Black. If not, then she probably wouldn't outrange Kamen Rider Black. I have a suspicion that it's not what she would do, due to what I addressed earlier concerning Esdeath's freezing ability and tactics. I get the impression that Esdeath would stay closer than farther to Kamen Rider Black in attempt to either freeze him or to ensure he would die painfully otherwise.
Before that, due to how debatable this match-up seems to be combined with how I'm not familiar with discussing either of the characters, I retract my vote for Kamen Rider Black winning the battle and I instead vote for the match being inconclusive.
Esdeath's freezing and tactics.
It was brought up that Esdeath freezing Kamen Rider Black would mean the latter's body would turn into ice rather than be trapped in ice, so due to the nature of Kamen Rider Black's resistance to ice manipulation, he would get himself killed for trying to get unfrozen. This was previously overlooked by me in this thread, because it means Kamen Rider Black's method of resisting ice specifically wouldn't work. However, I later realized that Kamen Rider Black resists petrification and deconstruction, which might prevent him from turning into ice and shattering.
Also, it was clarified that Esdeath's sadism doesn't distract her from goals involving defeating an opponent. Esdeath is considered as sadistic enough to try making her opponent die in the most painful way, and I don't think the most painful way for her to defeat Kamen Rider Black would be to immediately freeze him to death, so I wonder what prompts Esdeath to attempt to swiftly freeze someone to death in one attack.
Kamen Rider Black's Keystone Flash.
It was brought up that Esdeath's ice manipulation is from a demon ability to control the natural ice element, which isn't the same as Kamen Rider Black using Keystone Flash to nullify illusions, energy, electricity, and mind control. Even after I re-considered plenty of aspects of my analysis, I'm still not convinced that Keystone Flash wouldn't work on Esdeath's ice manipulation. Even though the examples Kamen Rider Black demonstrated aren't perfect matches to Esdeath's ice manipulation, power nullification isn't strictly limited by perfect matches involving what it has been shown to nullify, so I think Esdeath's ability is close enough to be weakened by Keystone Flash a bit at the very least. However, I've only seen Keystone Flash work against abilities that are already activated, so this seemingly isn't as effective as I initially proposed it was due to how Kamen Rider Black wouldn't have knowledge of Esdeath's ice manipulation before he would already be frozen. Keystone Flash seems to require a gesture as well.
Kamen Rider Black against fear.
It was brought up that Kamen Rider Black's resistances to sanity decreasing and to mind control aren't entirely the same as a resistance to a fear inducing aura, so Esdeath's aura would affect him. I'm not convinced that Kamen Rider Black's resistances are so detached that he couldn't be capable of defending himself from an ability that simply changes his emotion, but I will consider Kamen Rider Black as being scared by Esdeath's fearsome aura to an extent, because fear is indeed not exactly the same as sanity and direct mental autonomy.
Kamen Rider Black's "infinite" stamina.
It was brought up that Kamen Rider Black having infinite stamina could just refer to what stamina he has in reserve rather than what stamina he could use promptly and physically. It's confusing if the "Infinite" stamina rank on Kamen Rider Black's profile is secretly not combat applicable, despite how it's the only stamina rank, how its direct justification is the only justification for his stamina stat, and how it would certainly be downplay for Kamen Rider Black's immediately available stamina to be ranked as "Unknown" when he has gotten into many combat scenarios where he fights valiantly. I agree that the justification for infinite stamina seems vague. His Kingstone embedment having "infinite power" can mean a lot of things other than that he can never get tired, and it being his life and energy could refer to something other than stamina. However, if it weren't accepted by the VS Battles Wiki that Kamen Rider Black can use limitless stamina in a useful and combat applicable way, then it wouldn't be the only detail described on his profile concerning stamina, and it would instead be phrased and formatted in a more reasonable fashion like "Peak Human (He can fight supernatural entities in intense combat scenarios), likely/possibly up to Infinite (His Kingstone embedment has infinite power, so there is a good likelihood/possibility that he has an endless reserve of stamina and the potential to never get tired if he were to continue regaining stamina)." This isn't unbelievable, as if Kamen Rider Black doesn't have infinite immediate stamina, whoever implemented the "Infinite" rank might have been erroneously thinking that Kamen Rider Black's heavy usage of advanced technology supports the rank due to technology being inorganic, even though Kamen Rider Black isn't entirely mechanical, and machines don't inherently have infinite stamina anyway.
I have no problem with if someone were to make a content revision thread to update the Stamina section of Kamen Rider Black. Feel free to use what I have written to perform a refinement. As it stands, Kamen Rider Black's stamina, even if maybe overplayed, is considered as infinite by the VS Battles Wiki, so with me presuming that this ranking is relevant to versus battles, he could probably use it to his advantage in a battle against Esdeath if he were to last long enough.
Kamen Rider Black's skill against the Gorgom group.
It was brought up that the Gorgom group having 50,000 years of experience could've merely been them fighting tier 10-B policemen for all we know. I feel like the tier having been brought up was meant to imply the Gorgom group manipulated humanity through sheer power, and thus make it meaningless for me to have presented the evidence of the Gorgom group having manipulated humanity for 50,000 years. That way of going about what I did seems inaccurate to me.
The Gorgom group's manipulation of all of humanity is considered as the social influencing of its Creation King leader alone, and strength alone doesn't qualify for social influencing. Depending on your standards, a character frightening another because of how strong they are might count as social influencing, but even that doesn't coincide with the nature of the justification for social influencing that the Gorgom group has. The Creation King "manipulated human society from behind the scenes" so he was being clever about it rather than using sheer brute force. No matter if the police in the series are tier 10 or are stronger than Kamen Rider Black, the Gorgom group's 50,000 years of manipulating humanity isn't just a feat of physically fighting fodder cops that didn't challenge the group whatsoever "for all we know." It seems to me that the Gorgom group socially manipulated humanity for as long as it did through its political power rather than physical strength. That would include having been able to socially manipulate expert strategists and legal departments for rich companies, celebrities and governments, among other teams that would be difficult to plan the dominations of, yet the Gorgom group couldn't plan the successful domination of Kamen Rider Black.
Where I went wrong was forgetting that Kamen Rider Black often relied on hax to combat the Gorgom group, and not clarifying that the Gorgom group using terrorism means it wasn't sheer strategical skill they were using but rather strategical placements and timings of their attacks. This doesn't discount the Gorgom group's capabilities of using strategy to win on an international scale to some extent, and how Kamen Rider Black less often than otherwise can be portrayed as comparable to them despite just being a 19 year old individual. It's not as though any of this indicates that Kamen Rider Black is a strategy-meister. The evidence just counts as a lot more than insignificant quantity in an incomplete comparison fallacy vacuum of zero quality.
Of course, since I haven't watched Kamen Rider Black's story, I totally understand that it's possible that the series' lore didn't account for the underlying implications of what it presented and, beyond my knowledge, even the little strategical expertise I'm giving Kamen Rider Black credit for contextually shouldn't be the case. The Intelligence section of Kamen Rider Black's profile gives me the impression that my analysis is accurate, with it calling him a "genius" fighter who can escape in "any" situation. It's fair to be skeptical about those brief yet bold descriptions when evidence isn't linked nor cited to back them up aside from a few lesser feats in the Powers and Abilities section, but versus threads on the VS Battles Wiki Forum use the stances of the character profiles regardless of if they contain misinformation or not, so even in the worst case scenario where my verdict about Kamen Rider Black's skill is false, it would be better to make a content revision thread to improve the accepted information, rather than debate about it here.
Anyway, even in the case that Esdeath is the one with greater combat skill, Kamen Rider Black has ways of keeping up. For example, Esdeath's analytical prediction puts her ahead in the mind games in terms of skill, but Kamen Rider Black's readily available technology allows him to keep up using extrasensory perception and similar abilities.
Esdeath's range.
It was brought up that it would be in character for Esdeath to use her range from kilometers away. I don't doubt that, but the description should be more specific. Would it be in character for Esdeath to flee kilometers away from the opponent as soon as the battle would start and to begin using her long range to immediately freeze the opponent to death with nothing they can do about it? I'm asking in the sense that I want to know if this is the most likely course of action she would take against a random opponent like Kamen Rider Black. If not, then she probably wouldn't outrange Kamen Rider Black. I have a suspicion that it's not what she would do, due to what I addressed earlier concerning Esdeath's freezing ability and tactics. I get the impression that Esdeath would stay closer than farther to Kamen Rider Black in attempt to either freeze him or to ensure he would die painfully otherwise.
- 1,762
- 1,071
@James_Plays_4_Games There are a few points I've mentioned above that already debunks what you've said, and I won't repeat because it is already 3 AM here and I'm tired AF. I don't think being able to nullify an entire spiritual pocket dimensional is not a good example of why it wouldn't work on ice powers. Re-read what I've said above about the Kingstone Flash, it doesn't not necessarily requires gesture, it can and will activate regardless of Black's will or mental state. Black also isn't hindered by bloodlust/fear induction at all, also pointed above. His stamina isn't vague, Kingstone has infinite energy, Kingstone is his life and soul, Black was never shown to get tired even when being overwhelmed by foes more skilled and/or powerful than him, the only reason he does what he does is because of the Kingstone, there is absolutely no reason of why this wouldn't be combat applicable, otherwise he would be High 3-A instead of High 6-C/4-B. and why Black using technology has anything to do with his stamina? The only tech he uses are his vehicles (and Battle Hopper is half-organic). Black isn't mechanical like previous Showa Riders.
- 2,516
- 1,462
I wasn't arguing that Keystone Flash would be ineffective. As for whether or not it requires gestures, if you're referring to the evidence for Kamen Rider Black's instinctive action ability, then I made an oversight. Sorry.
I must've missed that if that's true. In my retrospect, even though I considered Kamen Rider Black as susceptible to fear inducement, I didn't consider this as something that would prevent him from defending himself, so this isn't a major factor anyway.
What I wrote regarding stamina is an "if that's true" type of addressment about the interpretation I wasn't following, which is the same as the one you're following. Any answer I could give to the explanation you gave here would also be an "if that's true" type of answer. This is because the Stamina section of Kamen Rider Black's profile is too simple and short for me, and I'm not familiar with the character without using the profile's help. All my stance about this category of the match-up is at this point is that there should be more description about the stamina of Kamen Rider Black on his profile, no matter if it's for the purpose of downgrading its usefulness or reinforcing what's already established.
Similar threads
