- 25,632
- 15,962
- Thread starter
- #81
I already declared grace several hours ago
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Kamen rider black vs esdeath
- Thread starter Artorimachi_Meteoraft
- Start date
- Status
- 715
- 34
So right now we just wait for oven or zeed to come huh ?
- 25,632
- 15,962
- Thread starter
- #83
Ovens since zeed has already given his stuff . It might take a staff’s opinion honestly at this point
- 1,024
- 338
Then this thread is over then I guess. You declared grace yesterday, right? with the knockout thing?
- 715
- 34
- 2,087
- 1,471
Re-read as much as you want to.
Range mustn't necessarily be harmful to take as advantage though. Black's sensorial range advantage will only allow him to have a awareness to every move that Esdeath can or will perform, along with everything that comes with it.
By "move" I mean any muscular action, not moving from point X to point Y. I haven't seen anything indicating that she can use her ice powers without moving any part of her body.
Attributes such as jumping, ability to move, and the simple act of thinking in a short period of time are all factors in versatility. I don't know what your point is here. I mentioned 2-A summoning just to reinforce that Black can summon the vehicles anywhere, not that the fact that it's 2-A would be useful here, otherwise my text wouldn't go point by point. Road Sector's ANPR was also to maintain that Esdeath would never be out of Black's field of vision, and I don't understand this weird mindset of "if they're close then it won't make a difference"... when does it? Compound eyes even in the animal kingdom are absurdly helpful, especially when there are short distances between a target. And no, I'm going to mention everything that might come in handy, whether you like it or not, then the problem goes elsewhere.
Re-read as much as you want to.²
At no point did you even bother to show any temperature for Esdeath, in which the only thing that differentiates it from Mammoth Mutant is the greater creative freedom and scope (which don't help much here regardless). The temperature to make ice quickly freeza a target is -196°C. flash freezing, and curiously, it's the same temperature that can create ice from the air itself in seconds and freeze a human being completely, which is what Mammoth Mutant does lmao.
Regenerating a soul from a corpse is not Low-Godly.
The difference is that Black also resists sub-zero temperatures in addition to all the effects of deconstruction, internal attacks and so on. What's your point? And my time here is irrelevant.
Calm down calabreso. And what? Why are you lying again? OP didn't included that Satansaber is restricted. If he said somewhere here around this thread, then that should be edited to the OP. And stop strawmanning me, I argued about life/soul hacks resistance in relation to Esdeath being unable to destroy the Kingstone, and therefore preventing all its effects from continuing to work regardless of Black's will or state. (And yes, transmutation to gold is petrification, Bill Cipher has petrification for this reason). I used these instances to argue that because Black has withstood equivalent/superior attacks to what was seen from Esdeath, the ice would be an insufficient hindrance for Black not to be able to circumvent it.
If a specific powers brings several other effects like the ones I mentioned, then it kinda is a mix between these abilities, not that fact is relevant at all here though.
Another straw man on your part, at no time did I mention that they have the power of ice, but rather that they can reach internal points and weaken their opponents, the latter being one of the things that Esdeath's ice does.
In fact, the only desperate thing here is your intense attitude of complaining about the micro and macro of my text, insisting that "tHaTs'S nOt ReLeVaNt", if I bring things that could be useful, I'll send them, regardless of whether you want me to or not. You can't just be immature because of your inelegant message to those who gave FRA earlier, but now you accuse me of "wanting to be elegant" just because I describe something in more detail? Wake up, we're on a battleboarding forum, you'll see the whole ******* thing here. At most, I can only see dimensional travel being irrelevant if both are at the same distance at all times, which everyone knows is not the case. Nothing stops Black from being able to go to the Mirror World if necessary, it's useful if he wants to completely avoid all her attacks without any risk. Any ice effect has already been proven to be useless.
Key words: "out", "of", "question".
Is there absolutely nothing metaphysical about Esdeath's? LMAO, do you even know what that word means? The only thing that is altered is the application, apart from that, all the manipulation of madness is through influencing brain cells to act out of control. The Coward Hormone is a chemical substance with effects even worse than Esdeath's fear-inducing aura, while Esdeath emanates these effects invisibly and untouchably. You assume that having these characteristics is "metaphysical", so I have nothing to do but feel a lot.
I ironically bring you the whole series, since Black starts out as inexperienced from the beginning, and in just the first fight he's already gotten rid of 2-3 kaijins without any problems. But anyway, that was just a supporting point, but AD is the lesser of two evils here.
Your headcanon does not reflect what VS Battles actually considers in these instances. If a power whose description is to nullify/deflect/deny attacks, and its instances demonstrate to affect physical, energetic or spiritual structures, Occam's Razor allows me to say that yes, ice would be within that. Don't come up with that misconception again. There is no "we" there.
He usually uses it as a starter at the moment. If Esdeath can even release freezing gas (spoiler: she won't). Power Stripes will simply nullify the ice around him, regardless of whether the freezing is only external or internal. And yes, effects already created have been nullified, as I pointed out.
Infinitely, and yes, it's the same as physical strength. Since everything that makes up your life and soul is infinite, and Black has never been shown to get tired in combat, it does apply to physical strength, because on occasions like this, I wouldn't even be allowed to add it without any problem, there have been revisions, they have been accepted, and so it will be until N-day. Your examples are completely futile here (and then I'm the one who brings irrelevant things here), we're talking about a being with infinite vital/spiritual/physical energy, he doesn't get tired, it's massively different from a conventional human being and his hypothetical energy capacities.
Rebutted above, and another straw man. I'm saying the quite opposite that Esdeath has just standard ice manipulation temperatures, just like I'm saying about Mammoth Mutant's instance.
Yes, it's physical strength, you saying it's not doesn't makes your point correct.
You've just agreed that you've read nothing about your sensory senses, or even how compound eyes work. You're assuming that the hypothetical shoelace would have a response time that exceeds that of the hypothetical opponent, when that's not the case, nor does the distance matter, if it's within the range of his sensory senses, he'll be picked up. Again, another completely illogical and incorrect point on your part.
Or you could simply admit that your own analogy is completely nonsensical. It will be certain element disappearing by an EXPLICIT property of Kingstone Flash is not remotely close to EE. I'm sorry, but that was a pretty stupid analogy, not least because the events you cited don't even amount to offensive attacks, you're twisting a simple point to create a narrative that makes sense in your head. ANYTHING that is an offensive attack (i.e. coming from an outside source with the focus and purpose of attacking you), the Kingstone Flash will nullify. Don't compare natural events with this again.
Silence. Tatsumi is discovering that "range" refers to a spatial distance in units of measurement varying in cm, m, or beyond, and not that it is only exclusively for offensive skills. It's starting to become really hard in taking anything you've mention as "viable" as you were outright lying about his range and AP.
Because no one came to defend Esdeath, so my arguments defending Black that were convincing in the eyes of these people voted for him. It's simple, the problem is that you're so immature when it comes to defending a character in Versus Matches but you forget that people are subject to being proven wrong. If everyone was voting for Esdeath, and only after a while, I came to defend Black, I wouldn't complain about who gave FRA. Grow up.
It's not. Get the OP edited and then we'll talk.
Last edited:
- 5,212
- 2,470
btw, this match cant be added if one side of the arguements were never heard and there was a FRA train before supporters could arrive
This match is still very much ongoing
This match is still very much ongoing
IxaSaga2
He/Him- 1,958
- 731
My guys its just ice and freezing at the end of the day. Black has scans to prove that he dealt with ice and his body parts being frozen. Now we either prove with evidence that Esdeath's ice is lower temp or more effective than Mammoth's where we can move forward with the argument or keep going with the "nuh uh it won't work" response.
- 5,084
- 2,917
Basics of combat 101: When is a person said to have a range advantage in a fight?
It's when their attacks can reach the opponent from a distance easier. A spear wielder has the range advantage over a swordsman because the spear is longer.
Her powers are thought based and don't require gestures.
Compound eyes exist only in arthropods and crustaceans and are more useful for seeing in every direction than long distances.
What's there not to understand? They start 6 meters from each other and you're saying he has an advantage by being able to see up to a kilometer away at once when Esdeath isn't even a kilometer away.
Outline what use a vehicle has in cqc besides attempting to escape? Why else is 2-A summoning mentioned? Jow does it help him win?
Esdeath's page already has her feats. Frozen objects become brittle at around -75°C. The greater creative freedom os very much useful as that's what versatility is here ranging from creating weapons and defensive structures, creating Ice soldiers, wide ranging danmaku she can control, AoE cold air waves, massive constructs to seal movements etc.
No way you just bought that up for general flash freezing. Freezing things quickly ≠ flash freezing (which is done to preserve lifetime of goods). Creating ice from air only requires you to freeze water vapour and -196°C is actually the temperature at which nitrogen condenses and unfortunately for you, there's no liquid nitrogen formed as a result of the mammoths powers.
A quick search also reveals the mammoth merely spews cold breath and shoots icicles from its trunk with nothing alluding to freezing water vapour or the like so it's just magically creating ice after all.
Esdeath isn't attavking his soul either way so the point was moot.
Still not equal to brittleness as a result of freezing. Deconstruction is a separate power of its own and internal attacks don't count towards it either. How hard is this to understand?
Said he chose a key where he doesn't have it. Same thing.
Quote where anyone said Esdeath is touching the kingstone. For pete's sake there os such a thing as talking off point.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Non sequitur. One cannot resist absolute zero without resisting absolute zero. Simply having a resistance to cold, ice and deconstruction among others doesn't suffice, it's that simple.
You're now saying natural phenomena is supernatural? Look up ductile to brittle transition temperature.
Naturally occuring stuff aren't abilities
Now you're strawmanning me, you impied that.
Esdeath doesn't do any of that esdeath just freezes things at extreme temperatures. Its not absolute zero but its similar.
Talking off point isn't being useful.
I made one comment about an FRA train that formed before any arguments for Esdeath could be made. Funny you bring up being immature but you're the one capitalizing letters and using emojis where ever it suits you.
Cool, this forum though organizes fights according to what they do in character so get with the programme.
He's not escaping when he's already dead and if he does, he is dead either way.
Metaphysical wasn't the right word to use. Hormone secretion (Madness 1 and biological mind manipulation) isn't the same as an ability to induce fear. Fear
Someone clearly doesn't know how vsb wiki works
That's how physical stamina works. His body isn't abstract neither is it inorganic nor runs on vital energy
"Immature" got it. You don't vote when they're no arguments for the opposing side
OP already specified the keys. It's not there
- 25,632
- 15,962
- Thread starter
- #91
Can you honestly please get more AGK people here then, I honestly tried a few myself but so far nothing and some of them have long left the wiki like my bro popted (don’t know what happened to him)
- 2,087
- 1,471
I can't even say it's creative, because it's not. Black has a range advantage because he has more range, regardless of how he uses it. You throwing in meaningless selectivity and a "101" that you threw in out of nowhere doesn't help your point at all.
None of the scans on her profile agree with this.
Brother, with all due respect, but you've spoken nothing but ridiculous pseudo-science. Compound eyes are the main reason why you are unable to catch a fly easily regardless of range. They are visual defense mechanisms, they have a superior field of vision and motion detection regardless of range, the difference is that the resolution at which they visualize reality is not as high as that of humans, but regardless, it is enough to sense predators and react quickly to an attack. Their advantage is LITERALLY against short-range attacks. The vehicle is something constantly used by Black in 90% of his combat, he used it against Bilgenia and other Kaijins during this arc, and later against Shadow Moon. And I mentioned summoning on that scale just to automatically break any argument of Black being unable to summon motorcycles depending on where he is.
So, inferior to Mammoth Mutant, noted. And man, freezing things almost instantly (especially trees or humans) is the definition of flash freezing LMAO. Once the air is frozen at extremely low temperatures and causes objects to freeze in the air almost instantly, it IS flash freezing. At no point did you bother to highlight a temperature from Esdeath (something I ironically did better). If you could stop this shallow level of argument for a moment and do some research, then I could take this more seriously. The freezing of the Mammoth Mutant is explicitly treated as a freezing gas that freezes structures almost instantly and he does raise his power by consuming taurin extract, unless you have a clear contradiction about it having that temperature or not, then there's nothing to be done on that point, but not that it really matters since Black is already resistant to ice here. Pretty ironic considering you mention "quick searches", but there is absolutely nothing that remotely implies the usage of "magic-like ice creation".
Skimming through the episode, how coincidental, Mammoth Mutant's ice is explicitely said that it could weaken the power of his Rider Kick, but we know what happened later. don't we?
So we conceded that Esdeath is unable to affect the Kingstone, and consequently kill Black. Noted.
If the temperature you quoted for it is correct (which it probably isn't), it would be insufficient to make the target shatter on the ground. Deconstruction in this case (which is a form of durability negation that Black resists) is a bioproduct of her ice manipulation. And if that happens, it's because the opponent has been frozen from the inside out, which must affect the internal structure of a target, something Black also resists. Now I'm asking you the same question myself.
I've already explained why he was able to invoke it from above, your argument was that the OP restricted it, which is a lie. It's not the same thing, but not that it's really necessary for Black since he has enough resources on his own to get through her machinations.
No, but since you have difficulty interpreting that I addressed hypothetical points, I expected you to question that. But just go by the premise. Can Esdeath interact with Kingstone? No. Therefore, he will still act independently of Black's will or mental state.
Yes, the difference is that you're just wrong here lol.
I wasn't surprised only by your incorrect use of the fallacy, since my conclusion was quite evident from my main vote. But I'll repeat it again (apart from your analogy which doesn't even make sense, I'm starting to think you have a thing about it). Everything I showed that Black resisted fits in with what Esdeath demonstrated (regardless of the origin of the ability). Ice? Resist. Shatter/Melting/Breaking Down? Resist. Weakening? Resists. I can use the same argument to invalidate everything Esdeath can do against Black precisely because the instances aren't the same, regardless of whether the abilities are the same. Weird, isn't it?
Brother? Are you sober? Because your answer has nothing to do with what I said.
No, that stems from your inability to interpret my point. I mentioned that Black has resistance to attacks that focus on the inside of a target, not that they have ice manipulation. You've taken my premise to a level that isn't even grotesque, it's just very weird and random. And regardless of whether it's just ice manipulation (which isn't even according to her profile), my point still stands. Black won't be affected.
Tell yourself that. I'll believe it could be useful.
I don't know. A message that makes clear your annoyance and provocation of the people who previously voted for Black precisely because no one has so far defended Esdeath is a red flag. And now magically capitalizing key letters and using emojis (something I've only done 1 or 2 times here) becomes a symbol for immaturity, really, very comparable to a boring attempt to hide such a feeling. It's joever.
He won't be dead tho. I've already proven that her main ability is nullified by Kingstone Flash and Black's own ice resistance.
Congrats for realizing that. Flea Mutant's ability is to literally increase a person's fear until they commit suicide, which is far beyond intimidation by aura. In fact, her aura doesn't even seem to be truly passive, in the instances she uses it, it's either by creating traps for assassins or when she performs N action, but anyway, even if it is passive, and even if Black is affected by it (he won't), Kingstone Flash would also nullify it, again, regardless of Black's mental state.
Zamn! They have altered the concept of versatility in order to get into the misinterpretation of a member. I wish it was true, would be funny at least.
I'm genuinely going to pretend you didn't say that, because it's humanly impossible to insist that Black doesn't run on life energy even though EVERYTHING he did in the series was because the Kingstone was inside him. Kingstone being Black's literal life and soul? Nah, he physically gets tired like anyone else, believe me.
You've managed to describe your side here pretty easily, ngl.
Satansaber is not separated by keys.
- 1,826
- 495
Dude like, why are we still debating one some of these points. Like, the ice shit. Kingstone already removes that from the equation. Instead of advancing the conversation, you’re just going in circles and reusing points that don’t matter. End of the day it’s just a powerless Esdeath up against Kotaro with the Satansaber. We’re literally like an hour away from grace and we’re still arguing???
- 25,632
- 15,962
- Thread starter
- #94
At this point I might have to hope ovens comes in and puts a final nail in the coffin
- 1,826
- 495
Wdym
- 25,632
- 15,962
- Thread starter
- #96
I meant get ovens involved because he’s staff and he’s like one of the biggest rider guys here so maybe if he gets involved it will finally stop this argument that’s going nowhere.
- 1,826
- 495
While I don’t think Ovens is needed but to say this this argument is going nowhere is an understatement.
- 25,632
- 15,962
- Thread starter
- #98
He’s an admin that might help
- 16,080
- 9,325
I'm not an unbiased party here since I am a Kamen Rider supporter, however I think the heavy focus on the freezing is kinda dumb considering they're starting so close and Black is a h2h fighter.
Like ok, Esdeath's freezing could get Black, but when she's getting pummelled by someone who can relentlessly chase her down in motorbikes and a car, can she really land her ice attacks? Plus Black's enhanced senses are far better than Esdeath's, and should allow him to avoid her close ranged ice attacks.
Like ok, Esdeath's freezing could get Black, but when she's getting pummelled by someone who can relentlessly chase her down in motorbikes and a car, can she really land her ice attacks? Plus Black's enhanced senses are far better than Esdeath's, and should allow him to avoid her close ranged ice attacks.
- 1,024
- 338
I don't know whatever you're smoking right now, but I do know you should abstain from that. Forever. Because insects are part of the arthropods section. And what is Kamen Rider Black based off on? A grasshopper. And what is a grasshopper? An insect. Did you learn the word arthropods off from the Minecraft enchantments and search which animals have compound eyes only to see arthropods and think of spiders???
Basics Of Combat 101 Part 2 - Having ranged non-damaging abilities are also instrumental in battle. Having senses heightened to the point that you can see and hear kilometres and meters respectively can help in identifying and evading threats, whether it be ranged attacks or any preparations of further attacks. There's a reason why people take note of their surroundings in a war, no one foolishly charges into a fight and expects to come out alive without any sense of danger avoidance or identifying their threats first. A sword user can find the time to observe the spear user from far away and deduce the correct method to block the spear with his blade or grab under the spearhead mid-thrust with senses such as this. KR Black should be capable of avoiding her ranged attacks, and these ranged abilities will help him out.
Neither in the anime nor in the manga has Esdeath ever shown this capability. The most plausible thing you can argue is that she can do this around herself, especially with weapon/shield/whatever appearing on her hand. But this will mean that gestures are needed for more intricate and larger techniques. I can give the benefit of the doubt just for the weapon creation via ice powers only.
Versatility also means that you have the capabilities to deal with any situation anyone can throw at you. Yes, Esdeath is versatile in using her ice powers, but Kamen Rider Black is versatile in that he can deal with any unique and outlandish power the Golgom throws at him. Pocket Dimension? Check. Spider Mutants? Check. His other counterpart that is similar to him but is more powerful than him? Check check checkity check.
Some of what Esdeath brings to the table drains her energy. She can only pull off so many ice soldiers in a no prep situation, and none of them may even be enough.
I'm no expert in KR Black stuff, so I'll hand this over to Zeeds for this.
The option is there for him to use. Doesn't mean he's going to use it.
Two wrongs do not make a right, but they can be improved on to become right.
However, there's no redemption arc for the arguments I've been reading from you.
Splendid, Absolute Zero cannot be found in the profile of the woman known as Esdeath. I suggest you find a way to add that in there before attempting to utilise it ever again.
Teigus are made not only with danger beast parts but also utilise some form of extra power into the mix. While it is debatable whether Danger Beasts' powers are innate abilities (I'm inclined to say yes), but the same cannot be said for teigus. There is no way Esdeath's demon extract teigu is some biological thing that gives her powers.
Unless...
Unless it's mystical or magical or some mumbo jumbo.
Do you know what that means?
Black Sun Kingstone Flashbang powernulls it.
The rest of what I can answer has been better articulated by the other guys in this thread.
Tally Ho, my planet needs me.
- 5,084
- 2,917
skill difference and yes, she can. She's accustomed to using her powers in a chase, that's how she crushed various rebel groups and armies.
This is literally the first I've heard enhanced senses being useful to dodge in close range especially when the opponent has analytical prediction.
By the way, I suggest you advice the rider supporters to calm down. They've already started throwing shade and flinging insults my way.
Last edited:
- 4,270
- 769
Kingston Flash Fra
- 2,818
- 1,712
By the way, voting for the match-up to be inconclusive can mean the person has been part of plenty of discussion in the thread yet doesn't decide on one or the other combatant winning. By voting for the match-up to be inconclusive, I don't mean something like that the battle could go either way, even though that is sometimes what people mean when they vote inconclusive. Also, we don't need an administrator to end the thread. Versus threads aren't that deep.
(Edit was for a spelling mistake.)
(Edit was for a spelling mistake.)
Last edited:
- 11,601
- 8,369
Yeah like what the hell, when did we need admins and shit to end threads. When grace is over it is over, nothing more complicated, the match gets added to the profile.
- 715
- 34
@Artorimachi_Meteoraft please close this thread.
it been shown clear that black have counter to her ice manipulation and could nullify her power so yeah
it been shown clear that black have counter to her ice manipulation and could nullify her power so yeah
- 12,447
- 5,641
esdeath bad asf
- 5,212
- 2,470
idk why yall think just having better ESP means they are better at dodging too
AnPr>ESP
AnPr>ESP
- 25,632
- 15,962
- Thread starter
- #109
I am trying to
- 2,818
- 1,712
You'd need a staff member for that. The member you addressed isn't one.
Regular members can't notify other members through "@" either. You'd have to ask directly.
- 2,087
- 1,471
Already explained above. Black's ESP works to a degree that no movement that she will perform will go out of his sight, and dodging isn't even necessary here.
- 5,212
- 2,470
knowing what your opponent is doing at the current moment is not equal to knowing what they will do next, and if he just stands around he would get pummeled
Esdeath would have a much easier time in cqc in comparison to him
- Status
Similar threads
