Aesir upgrade

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Basically a follow up to this thread https://vsbattles.com/threads/bayonetta-verse-revisions-low-1-c-infinite.115165/

The upgrade was rejected on the basis that "Aesir doesn't ontogically exist beyond space-time" which can be fixed with the use of the japanese version and some quick explanations.

Aesir (the original one) was the god of chaos, chosen to be the ruler of the world of chaos aka human world and unlike the other rulers (Sheeba and Jubileus) Aesir apparently was there from before the world was created.

Aesir was a peaceful God who watched over reality and when he saw humanity, he pitied them and gave them his power.

Now the interesting thing is that Aesir has some special powers, one of them is the power of an observer of history:

光と闇と混沌。 原初より分かたれた三つの世界のうち、混沌を統べる存在、それがエーシルである。 「「歴史の観測者」たる力を持ったエーシルは、 我々とは全く違う次元に生き、起こり得る複数の可能性が同時に重なり合った状態の歴史を、時空を超越した視点から観測していたとされる。 「エーシル」 という名は、人類の言葉で 「神」を表すが、信仰や崇拝、教や理想の金によるものではなく、単に人類にとって一切の理解が及ばない超自然の存在に対し、他に表現する 言葉が見当たらなかったために用いら れた、というのが実際のところであろう。 そしてノアトゥーンに残る伝承が真実な らば、この混沌の神を、「ロキ」「ロプト」 という2つの人格”に分裂せしめたのは、 人類自身である。 エーシルは自らの“世界の目”の力を人 類に与え、それにより人類は「選択」 の概念を得た。しかしそれは同時に 「勝利」と「敗北」、「真実」と「虚 偽」の概念をも生み出すこととなった。 憎しみ、裏切り、嫉妬、朝り。「選択」 の概念は瞬く間に人類の間で麻薬の ように消費され、やがて人類に力を 与えたエーシル自身も、再び力を求める 「強い情念を呼び覚ましたーー。 「時空超越」の力を持つエーシルが 「観測者」たる力を取り戻すという ことは、現在、過去、未来に至るまで 世界の全ての命運が掌握されると いうことである。だがそのエーシルに心を植え付けたのは、紛れもなく 人類なのだ。力を取り戻したエーシル が何を行おうとも、それは人類全体の 罪であると言えるのではないだろうか...

Light, darkness, and chaos.
Of the three worlds that have been divided since the beginning, Aesir is the one who controls chaos.
It is said that Aesir, who possessed the power to be an "observer of history," lived in a dimension completely different from our own and observed history from a perspective that transcended time and space, a state in which multiple possibilities overlapped at the same time. The name "Aesir," which means "god" in the language of mankind, was not a term of faith, worship, teaching, or ideals, but rather simply because there was no other word to describe a supernatural being that was beyond the comprehension of mankind. And if the legends of Noatun are true, it was mankind itself that divided the god of chaos into two personalities, "Loki" and "Loput. Aesir gave humanity the power of his "eye of the world," which gave humanity the concept of "choice.
But it also gave rise to the concepts of "victory" and "defeat," "truth" and "falsehood. Hate, betrayal, jealousy, and lust. The concept of "choice" was quickly consumed by mankind like a drug, and eventually Aesir himself, who had empowered mankind, once again awakened a "strong passion" for power. The Aesir, who possesses the power to "transcend time and space," regains the power of "observer," which means that the fate of the entire world, from the present, to the past, to the future, is in his hands. However, it is unmistakably mankind that has planted its mind in Aesir. Whatever the Aesir does after regaining its power, it will be the sin of humanity as a whole...

We are told that Aesir (the original) has the power to make reality anything he sees and he spent an eternity quietly looking upon the world from his holy mountain, his "completely different dimension" from where he does so from a perspective that transcends space and time. The world was created through his visions, reality was created through his eyes.

The current Aesir (Loptr) is trying to regain its original power, the power to transcend time and space in which all the world will be in his hands to do as he pleases.

Now, thanks to Bayonetta 3 we know the "human world" is made of countless/infinite universes (TL for this:
Among the trinity worlds, the "chaos world" is an infinite amount of universes each overlapping each other in a multi-layered structure.
That is the "multiverse"
If you were to annihilate those universes one by one...no, annihilate isn't the exact word.
In reality, you are breaking up the multiverse...and trying to merge it into one
Like taking a thinly slice ham and shredding it...lumping it into a big chunk of mince.
If one were to really do that, they'd have the power to wipe out demons and the heavens in an instant.

無数 is infinite/countless) which means Aesir created countless universes because 'lol bored' ig.

Basically, all this proves that Aesir (the original) was a being that transcended time and space, he created the human world through visions and then gave part of his power to the humans whom he pitied. Loptr, the evil half of the God, was trying to reclaim this power and become the "observer" and when he does, he will end the world of chaos.

So in short I propose we give Aesir 2 keys, one for the OG and one for Loptr who was still trying to regain the full power of the god of chaos. The OG would be L1C while Loptr would only get a "possibly L1C"

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

A special thanks to the wankers in the server, especially @Comicgyal for doing like 90% of this :v She will also be providing any scans you, dear readers, might want

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Forgot to add but pls don't discuss scaling here but tbh no one scales to him anyways

 

[Comicgyal]

Agree, of course. I think the intent for Aesir is pretty obvious, it’s said he transcends/is beyond their space time a lot.

 

[Everything12]

Still not enough to prove the qualitative difference necessary for Low 1-C. Transcending space and time is a meaningless statement of it's own when trying to prove Tier 1, the existence of an infinite multiverse doesn't change this.

Meanwhile, the ability to change reality through observation is just hax and not a form of qualitative superiority without additional context that states that it gives such a superiority, such as viewing reality as if it was fiction or the like. Observing reality from a perspective that transcends time and space does not count as such context, the meaning easily being able to be interpreted as him being able to view multiple possibilities from his perspective.

 

[Comicgyal]

Still not enough to prove the qualitative difference necessary for Low 1-C. Transcending space and time is a meaningless statement of it's own when trying to prove Tier 1, the existence of an infinite multiverse doesn't change this.

Meanwhile, the ability to change reality through observation is just hax and not a form of qualitative superiority without additional context that states that it gives such a superiority, such as viewing reality as if it was fiction or the like. Observing reality from a perspective that transcends time and space does not count as such context, the meaning easily being able to be interpreted as him being able to view multiple possibilities from his perspective.

Well it’s not just its own statement, it’s paired with this entire segment.

It is said that Aesir, who possessed the power to be an "observer of history," lived in a dimension completely different from our own and observed history from a perspective that transcended time and space, a state in which multiple possibilities overlapped at the same time.

It says that he exists in a dimension different from their universe, and in that dimensions he gains a perspective that transcends their space time. Why isn’t he superior to them despite that?

We’re also told that residents of Chaos have counterparts, but ones that aren’t from chaos don’t. Despite aesir being a resident of chaos, he doesn’t have a counterpart. Which would be due to that previously mentioned dimension, which transcends them. So his dimension isn’t just a place he went to in order to just “observe” history, because other single wielders of the eyes of the world can observe that same history, but they’re not said to transcend the space time like he is.

 

[Galens]

In my opinion, it looks good.
but wouldn't this also affect the tier of other characters?

 

[Comicgyal]

It would, but that’s for if it gets accepted later on.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The OP looks good to me.

 

[Everything12]

Well it’s not just its own statement, it’s paired with this entire segment.

The segment doesn't expand of the statement of 'transcending time and space' in any way that is meaningful for a qualitative superiority.

It says that he exists in a dimension different from their universe, and in that dimensions he gains a perspective that transcends their space time. Why isn’t he superior to them despite that?

He can be superior, but not to the qualitative level that is needed for Tier 1.

We’re also told that residents of Chaos have counterparts, but ones that aren’t from chaos don’t. Despite aesir being a resident of chaos, he doesn’t have a counterpart. Which would be due to that previously mentioned dimension, which transcends them. So his dimension isn’t just a place he went to in order to just “observe” history, because other single wielders of the eyes of the world can observe that same history, but they’re not said to transcend the space time like he is.

That lacking of a counterpart by existing outside of the infinite possibilities of the multiverse, in addition to his higher status as the god who watches over the world, is also what I think transcending time and space means.

While Aesir does have a nature of being superior to time and space by being a unqiue existence outside the infinite possibilities of the multiverse who watches over the world, none of this is evidence of the qualitative superiority of Tier 1. With additional evidence of a uncountable infinite or reality-fiction or similar relationship needed.

 

[Everything12]

The OP looks good to me.

How so? I don't see evidence of a qualitative superiority here?

 

[Comicgyal]

From what I understand, you’re looking for:

They can qualify, however, if said "higher plane" is defined as having a relationship of qualitative superiority over lower realms in one way or another, such as by perceiving them as literal fiction/unreality (or being comparatively more "real" in nature), encompassing them in an infinitesimal portion of itself, residing in a higher state of being altogether, and etc.

Is not transcending the space time of the lower realm — not being outside it, or unaffected by, but transcending it, not an example of a higher state of being? We know that the trinity exists in a layered state, with Paradiso being sort of “Above” Chaos and Inferno, but not in a transcendent state, just in a coordinated system. Aesirs dimension is above them in that transcendent meaning, wouldn’t that be the higher state of being?

We know that there might already be established layers of R>F, due to having characters who exist in a seperate world in a written picture book.

 

[Everything12]

From what I understand, you’re looking for:


Is not transcending the space time of the lower realm — not being outside it, or unaffected by, but transcending it, not an example of a higher state of being? We know that the trinity exists in a layered state, with Paradiso being sort of “Above” Chaos and Inferno, but not in a transcendent state, just in a coordinated system. Aesirs dimension is above them in that transcendent meaning, wouldn’t that be the higher state of being?

We know that there might already be established layers of R>F, due to having characters who exist in a seperate world in a written picture book.

Nope, like I said transcending space and time is a rather meaningless statement on it's own, it's the context around the statement that gives it it's weight, and the context here is not the type that proves a qualitative superiority.

Transcending can honestly just be a fancy way of saying it's above or outside while having some form of (non-qualitative) superiority because it's the realm of a god or because it predates existence.


That whole book thing could just be a case of Immersion, a form of pocket dimension that has no relevance to reality-fiction relationship, would need a more direct statement of such a relationship to be qualified.

 

[Comicgyal]

Nope, like I said transcending space and time is a rather meaningless statement on it's own, it's the context around the statement that gives it it's weight, and the context here is not the type that proves a qualitative superiority.

Transcending can honestly just be a fancy way of saying it's above or outside while having some form of (non-qualitative) superiority because it's the realm of a god or because it predates existence.

Okay, what would normally classify as a “higher state of existence” then? As a sort of example, since the others speak for themselves.

 

[Everything12]

Okay, what would normally classify as a “higher state of existence” then? As a sort of example, since the others speak for themselves.

Of course their is the well-known reality-fiction relationship of seeing space and time as fiction, and their is also the uncountable infinite difference of the infinite multiverse being an infinitesimal point in comparison.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Of course their is the well-known reality-fiction relationship of seeing space and time as fiction, and their is also the uncountable infinite difference of the infinite multiverse being an infinitesimal point in comparison.

In the case of Bayonetta it is actually, Chaos exists as an infinite number of universes, which Aesir transcends entirely, as well as Paradiso and Inferno being described as infinite in size compared to Chaos, with Jubileus and Sheba being the embodiments of those realms and Aesir scaling to them in turn

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Also, since ive already spoken in depth with the people who made this crt and helped put it together, i obviously agree with it

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Still not enough to prove the qualitative difference necessary for Low 1-C. Transcending space and time is a meaningless statement of it's own when trying to prove Tier 1, the existence of an infinite multiverse doesn't change this.

Meanwhile, the ability to change reality through observation is just hax and not a form of qualitative superiority without additional context that states that it gives such a superiority, such as viewing reality as if it was fiction or the like. Observing reality from a perspective that transcends time and space does not count as such context, the meaning easily being able to be interpreted as him being able to view multiple possibilities from his perspective.

Tiering System

The following is a comprehensive overview of the hierarchical system which this wiki utilizes in order to properly categorize and index fictional characters, entities, and objects based on the scale of their feats, and the varying scopes which they can affect or create/destroy. However, it...

vsbattles.fandom.com

"Characters who can significantly affect spaces of qualitatively greater sizes than ordinary universal models and spaces, usually represented in fiction by higher levels or states of existence (Or "levels of infinity", as referred below) which trivialize everything below them into insignificance, normally by perceiving them as akin to fictional constructs or something infinitesimal."

Low 1-C: Low Complex Multiverse level​

"Characters who can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.) In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 5 to R ^ 6)"

This is almost word for word the description of Aesir's existence in regards to the structure of the Bayonetta multiverse

 

[KLOL506]

Seems good at a glance.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

In the case of Bayonetta it is actually, Chaos exists as an infinite number of universes, which Aesir transcends entirely, as well as Paradiso and Inferno being described as infinite in size compared to Chaos, with Jubileus and Sheba being the embodiments of those realms and Aesir scaling to them in turn

Yeah this sounds like it qualifies. I agree with this CRT

 

[Everything12]

as well as Paradiso and Inferno being described as infinite in size compared to Chaos

Quotes/scans please

Tiering System

The following is a comprehensive overview of the hierarchical system which this wiki utilizes in order to properly categorize and index fictional characters, entities, and objects based on the scale of their feats, and the varying scopes which they can affect or create/destroy. However, it...

vsbattles.fandom.com

"Characters who can significantly affect spaces of qualitatively greater sizes than ordinary universal models and spaces, usually represented in fiction by higher levels or states of existence (Or "levels of infinity", as referred below) which trivialize everything below them into insignificance, normally by perceiving them as akin to fictional constructs or something infinitesimal."

Low 1-C: Low Complex Multiverse level​

"Characters who can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.) In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 5 to R ^ 6)"

This is almost word for word the description of Aesir's existence in regards to the structure of the Bayonetta multiverse

Except it isn't. Their is no 'qualitatively greater' or 'perceiving them as asking to fictional contructs or something infinitesimal' or 'higher levels of infinity' in the descriptions given.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Quotes/scans please

Turns out the scan on Sheba's profile is actually broken so someone will have to fix that, but the feats were discussed in-depth and accepted here

Except it isn't. Their is no 'qualitatively greater' or 'perceiving them as asking to fictional contructs or something infinitesimal' or 'higher levels of infinity' in the descriptions given.

Yeah im not sure why the stuff i brought up wasnt just brought up in the OP, i feel like that could have saved a lot of time and effort lol

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Why do we assume Aesir's transcendence is over the entire multiverse as opposed to just Bayo 2's universe?

 

[Everything12]

Turns out the scan on Sheba's profile is actually broken so someone will have to fix that, but the feats were discussed in-depth and accepted here

Yeah im not sure why the stuff i brought up wasnt just brought up in the OP, i feel like that could have saved a lot of time and effort lol

If I'm not wrong, this is saying that the other two Realms are infinite and endless, but nothing about them being infinitely larger then the World of Chaos.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

If I'm not wrong, this is saying that the other two Realms are infinite and endless, but nothing about them being infinitely larger then the World of Chaos.

Specifically it comes from Irenic's description in that thread regarding Paradiso being outright stated as significantly larger than the Human World, which is Chaos

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Why do we assume Aesir's transcendence is over the entire multiverse as opposed to just Bayo 2's universe?

Because Chaos as a realm within the Trinity of Realities is in and of itself a multiverse, the its just that rather than it being one singular realm like Paradiso and Inferno, Chaos is split up into an infinite number of parallel universes that has its power spread equally across each universe

 

[Everything12]

Yeah, this couuld easily just be talking about the Universe they are in when referring to the human world.

 

[Vasco]

In the case of Bayonetta it is actually, Chaos exists as an infinite number of universes, which Aesir transcends entirely, as well as Paradiso and Inferno being described as infinite in size compared to Chaos, with Jubileus and Sheba being the embodiments of those realms and Aesir scaling to them in turn

Correct me if im wrong but Paradiso and inferno being described as infinite in size compared to Chaos, doesn't that mean 2-A? Since they are comparable in size to Chaos which exists as infinite number of universes.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Correct me if im wrong but Paradiso and inferno being described as infinite in size compared to Chaos, doesn't that mean 2-A? Since they are comparable in size to Chaos which exists as infinite number of universes.

Being infinite in size compared to an infinite multiverse would be Low 1-C

 

[Everything12]

Do you have any other, stronger, evidence to suggest that the World of Chaos is infinity smaller then Paradiso, then a brief statement in the lore entry of a low level angel that states that Paraidso is "thousands of times larger (not infinitely larger) then the human world"

Because this alone is far to weak to be considered suitable evidence to prove a qualitative difference.

This only proved an infinite difference between the worlds because it was adding descriptions of being infinite and endless to a statement of being larger then the, then considered, non-infinite World of Chaos. A finite amount larger doesn't work to show an infinite qualitative difference when they are all infinite.

 

[Vasco]

Being infinite in size compared to an infinite multiverse would be Low 1-C

I know but do you have scans?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I know but do you have scans?

Ye, the feats and scans in question were discussed in-depth and accepted here

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Also i'm gonna back out for now and wait for the others to come back before continuing, plus its almost 5 am for me and i have work in a few hours lol

 

[Everything12]

Ye, the feats and scans in question were discussed in-depth and accepted here

Leaving out that the premise of the thread was saying that the other two worlds being described as infinite and limitless was enough evidence to prove they were infinite when compared to being bigger (by thousands times) then the non-infinite World of Chaos.

Edit: I'm saying that most of the thread is simply stating that the worlds of Paradiso and Inferno are infinite, and they are stated to be an finite amount times larger then the human world. Which proved that they were infinitely larger then the World of Chaos when the World of Chaos lacked evidence of being infinite, but does not prove they are infinitely larger now when it is also infinite in size.

 

[OmniMagician]

Just wanted to say that I agree with Weekly and the CRT.

Also, when will the Bayo 3 discussions/updates be happening? I just finished the game and am genuinely curious to see how they turn out.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Also, when will the Bayo 3 discussions/updates be happening? I just finished the game and am genuinely curious to see how they turn out.

Idk about anyone else, but I have a crt in the works introducing some new profiles and adding some Powers and Abilities. I should have it done by the weekend

 

[Deadguy]

Damn your lazy ass actually did it

 

[Deadguy]

Anyway neutral leaning towards agree

 

[Comicgyal]

Edit: I'm saying that most of the thread is simply stating that the worlds of Paradiso and Inferno are infinite, and they are stated to be an finite amount times larger then the human world. Which proved that they were infinitely larger then the World of Chaos when the World of Chaos lacked evidence of being infinite, but does not prove they are infinitely larger now when it is also infinite in size.

There’s actually a difference made between their sizes, despite chaos being infinite in number.

In Bayonetta 3, the split that resulted in Chaos being made into infinite numbered universes is referenced as something that made it “weaker” while Inferno, and Paradiso are regarded as whole in comparison. We know that Inferno is infinite in size, in comparison to Chaos being infinite in number.

 

[Comicgyal]

Just wanted to say that I agree with Weekly and the CRT.

Also, when will the Bayo 3 discussions/updates be happening? I just finished the game and am genuinely curious to see how they turn out.

We’re waiting for Valiant to post their profiles crt, and then I’ll make a follow up discussing everything else.

 

[Everything12]

There’s actually a difference made between their sizes, despite chaos being infinite in number.

In Bayonetta 3, the split that resulted in Chaos being made into infinite numbered universes is referenced as something that made it “weaker” while Inferno, and Paradiso are regarded as whole in comparison. We know that Inferno is infinite in size, in comparison to Chaos being infinite in number.

Being split into multiple parts that are weaker then the whole does indeed leave it weaker then things comparable to the whole, allowing things like Singularity's plan to gradually gain the power of the whole, capable of taking over the Trinity, by erasing the weaker parts to happen.