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As stated frequently in this and the upgrade threads of other verses. Claims of transcending space and time alone are not enough for Tier 1.
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Aesir upgrade
- Thread starter Tony_di_bugalu
- Start date
- 61,134
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My guy, this upgrade isnt based solely on that claim, there is a lot more than just that that has been brought up both in the op and in the ensuing discussion
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I'm aware, I was just commenting on their post and what they said, which only cared about the fact that they transcended the multiverse as evidence and claimed that alone was enough.
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When it’s said to be thousands of times larger than the human world. That’s a finite number, not an infinite one like inferno. If Paradiso was infinite, then that would be even better.
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Here is my summary of the thread:
Initially the Low 1-C upgrade was proposed because:
This however is not enough for Low 1-C in my opinion, as transcending space and time alone is not enough for Tier 1, and he has no statements of his perspective seeing the world as fiction or the like.
However, during this thread an expansion on this proposal has been brought forth:
This is been done through the logic that, as their are statements of realms being compared to each other and Paradiso lacking statements of being infinite, unlike Inferno, then it must be finite in comparison to Inferno.
Thus by Inferno being infinite in comparison to Paradiso, which has statements of being larger then the human world, it must be infinitely larger than the mutliverse of the World of Chaos.
Besides the fact that their is no direct statement of the realms being infinitely bigger than the whole World of Chaos, or even a direct statement comparing the size of Inferno to the other realms. My biggest counter to this is the basic premise of Bayonetta 3:
Initially the Low 1-C upgrade was proposed because:
This however is not enough for Low 1-C in my opinion, as transcending space and time alone is not enough for Tier 1, and he has no statements of his perspective seeing the world as fiction or the like.
However, during this thread an expansion on this proposal has been brought forth:
These quote are being to used to propose that the other realms have a infinite difference in size between them and the multiverse of the World of Chaos, thus a qualitative difference and Low 1-C.
This is been done through the logic that, as their are statements of realms being compared to each other and Paradiso lacking statements of being infinite, unlike Inferno, then it must be finite in comparison to Inferno.
Thus by Inferno being infinite in comparison to Paradiso, which has statements of being larger then the human world, it must be infinitely larger than the mutliverse of the World of Chaos.
Besides the fact that their is no direct statement of the realms being infinitely bigger than the whole World of Chaos, or even a direct statement comparing the size of Inferno to the other realms. My biggest counter to this is the basic premise of Bayonetta 3:
If the combined power of the whole World of Chaos is enough to wipe out the whole Trinity of Realities, it is not possible for those realms to have qualitative superiority over the World of Chaos.
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So anyone having any issues with the summary I gave?
- 61,134
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Yes, namely being the antagonists of the first two games, aesir and Jubileus, having the power to wipe out all three of the realms at once without using the power of the world of chaos
- 1,701
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Yes,
1. Even if the whole of chaos is hypothetically comparable, that doesn’t matter, as it is currently in a fragmented state. Inferno would be infinitely bigger than these fragments, and just transcending one low 2-C universe is enough for Low 1C, let alone an infinite multiverse.
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Being infinitely bigger than a single universe is 2-A, not Low 1-C. They would have to be infinitely bigger than the entire multiverse to be considered evidence for Low 1-C.
With the realms being comparable to each other, if the full power of the World of Chaos is enough to destroy the full Trinity, then the other two realms and their rulers should also hold such power.
In thr addition, the Eyes of the World hold the power to shape the World of Chaos, whose whole holds meough power to destroy the Trinity.
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The tiering system page says otherwise actually
They did it without the eyes of the world
- 1,701
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The world of chaos isn’t a single universe, it’s a multiverse with a multi-layered structure that’s filled with countless universes. Not sure where the thought that chaos is just one universe, when it’s said to be an infinite amount of them.
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Yeah no, the world of chaos is the multiverse as a whole, not a singular universe
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And all these fragmented pieces that form the multiverse when put together form the whole, which we have no evidence to persume are nor comparable to the other realms, including Inferno. Especially when the reformed whole give seniugh power to wipe away the whole Trinity.
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No, even in its fragmented state it’s called a multiverse. They’re still compacted together, they’re just not merged together. What, you think each universe exists without order in some void floating around the trinity? And it did not reform as a whole, singularity just absorbed all of the universes into himself. He didn’t destroy the trinity after doing that either.
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We are speaking about the statement of the World of Chaos being lesser then the other realms because of being fragmented again, yes?
This is not because of the whole fragmented mutliverse being lesser then than the whole World of Chaos (and thus the other relams), but because the power of the whole is distributed among the those fragments, so no individual part has power comparable to the whole and the other realms.
With Singularity's plan being to fix that by destroying all but one of the universes so that the last universe left would have the power of the whole, enough to destroy the entire Trinity.
And Singularity didn't destroy the whole Trinity because Bayonetta got in his way and defeated him before he do so after gaining the full power of the fused World of Chaos.
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I still don’t see why that matters, even if they aren’t as strong as the whole, it’s still a multiverse, not one universe. Which inferno is still infinitely larger than. Singularities plan wasn’t to “fix” Chaos by making it one universe again, he wanted his universe, the Alpha verse, to be the main universe of Chaos. Rodin saying he could destroy the trinity was side comment.
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Back to square one. You already know my opinion and arguments against this one. Do you have any evidence to back up this claim that you haven't already presented before?
A pretty important comment from an knowledge source. If Rodin says that his reuniting the universes would give him the power to destroy the whole Trinity, then I believe him.
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Well, you said we were done the last time, so I don’t really know why we’re still trying to convince or deconstruct one another. My arguments would be for the other staff that commented previously.
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I still think Tier 1 is legit, there is the existence of 2-A cosmology and a plane of existence that transcends all time and space above those infinite timelines. Plus there are other discussions about multiple layers of spacio-temporal dimensions that encompass the multiverse where Aesir transcends even them, but those will be tackled layer. It doesn't even say outside of time and space, it literally says it transcends.
I think Low 1-C is reasonable for now.
I think Low 1-C is reasonable for now.
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Statements of transcending and being above on their own means nothing and are at best supporting evidence, as anyone knowledgeable on Tier 1 would tell you.
Where?
No, they need to be talked about now, because otherwise their is no evidence, as...
This word on it's own means a whole lot of nothing, which anyone who frequents Tier 1 upgrades threads where the word is thrown around and dismissed as not enough evidence frequently should know.
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I know Ultima retired as a Consultant, and I may not agree with everything he says, but he has always said otherwise iirc.
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Where?
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@DarkDragonMedeus
You are speaking of this I persume.
Then then went on to clarify this:
With these statements lacking the clarification on temporal dimensions and axis to be applicable. With it being his power and "perspective that transcended time and space" "in which multiple possibilities overlapped at the same time", and his dimension's description being how it is "different from our own."
And even then, in the end the FAQ was reworded to this:
You are speaking of this I persume.
Then then went on to clarify this:
With these statements lacking the clarification on temporal dimensions and axis to be applicable. With it being his power and "perspective that transcended time and space" "in which multiple possibilities overlapped at the same time", and his dimension's description being how it is "different from our own."
And even then, in the end the FAQ was reworded to this:
Q: What tier is transcending space and time?
'''A:''' As said above, "transcending space and time" is a very vague statement by itself and can mean multiple things depending on the context in which it is made, as well as how this characteristic is portrayed in the first place. However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is qualitatively superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions. The answer may vary depending on this factor.
It is perfectly possible for a statement like transcending space and time to mean that a character is simply "untied" from the universe's spacetime, and is thus unaffected by alterations in the timeline and similar meddlings. It's not exactly uncommon for time travel (Or any action / process that affects something through different points in time) to be described as "transcending time and space." Transcend space and time can also refer to a spacetime continuum being different to a "regular" spacetime continuum (Say, a strange-looking reality that may hold a few different physical laws, for example) or slightly do be more complex than a regular universe, even significantly so, but not qualitatively superior. Something A being said to "transcend" something B in real life can refer to the former being superior to the latter in some qualities in a notable way, but still roughly compatible. It does not necessarily mean transcendence not in an immeasurable way that would be graphically indescribable, such as A's qualities being superior to B by infinite amounts. With this in mind, statements of realities or beings with transcendence over space & time/the universe/etc., on their own, are not assumed to refer to qualitatively superiority, unless of course further context may elaborate on and contextualize this.
'''A:''' As said above, "transcending space and time" is a very vague statement by itself and can mean multiple things depending on the context in which it is made, as well as how this characteristic is portrayed in the first place. However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is qualitatively superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions. The answer may vary depending on this factor.
It is perfectly possible for a statement like transcending space and time to mean that a character is simply "untied" from the universe's spacetime, and is thus unaffected by alterations in the timeline and similar meddlings. It's not exactly uncommon for time travel (Or any action / process that affects something through different points in time) to be described as "transcending time and space." Transcend space and time can also refer to a spacetime continuum being different to a "regular" spacetime continuum (Say, a strange-looking reality that may hold a few different physical laws, for example) or slightly do be more complex than a regular universe, even significantly so, but not qualitatively superior. Something A being said to "transcend" something B in real life can refer to the former being superior to the latter in some qualities in a notable way, but still roughly compatible. It does not necessarily mean transcendence not in an immeasurable way that would be graphically indescribable, such as A's qualities being superior to B by infinite amounts. With this in mind, statements of realities or beings with transcendence over space & time/the universe/etc., on their own, are not assumed to refer to qualitatively superiority, unless of course further context may elaborate on and contextualize this.
The quote in question is:
Which points towards the individual universes being weaker by having the total power split among them, but nothing about the combined size of the World of Chaos being lesser than the other realms.
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I didn’t ask about the combined world, I asked about the fragmented worlds. If you think inferno isn’t infinitely bigger than the whole world, that’s you, but it still exists as a fragmented multiverse, that isn’t just one universe.
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I recall him saying it in a BlazBlue thread. Though that is off topic
Anyway, the OP isn't proposing Chaos being Tier 1 sized, it's Aesir.
Also, I should note I already am aware there is a difference between countable infinity and uncountable infinity; the former amount of universes would be 2-A where as the latter would form a Low 1-C structure. And if the Inferno statements about being infinitely larger than the split infinite/countless universes could approach uncountable infinite territory.
Anyway, the OP isn't proposing Chaos being Tier 1 sized, it's Aesir.
I forgot which statement mentioned Inferno, but makes sense.
Also, I should note I already am aware there is a difference between countable infinity and uncountable infinity; the former amount of universes would be 2-A where as the latter would form a Low 1-C structure. And if the Inferno statements about being infinitely larger than the split infinite/countless universes could approach uncountable infinite territory.
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In response to the large text above, as it says context matters. In the context of the verse, Aesir is seen as a God beyond human comprehension. He created the world, and is said to transcend. While also having visions that create more worlds. He’s not simply unbound by the universes space time, or transcending it by some means of time travel either. Which is what that quote attacks as mentions of “transcending space and time” that don’t hint at some sort of qualative difference.
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Where is this evidence Ultima said that?
Where is he shown or stated to be Tier 1 in size? It is only his power and perspective that is given a vague transcends space and time statement.
Where is the statement which you are using to form your opinion on Inferno?
Put me down with a firm disagreement with both this thread and your conclusion, this Wiki relies on actual evidence being presented to reach conclusions and to prove we are indexing properly.
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They are, yes. Chaos is the multiverse as a whole, not a single universe
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Managed to get any scans or quotes yet that proves that Inferno/Paradiso are infinite bigger then the whole World of Chaos multiverse and not merely greater then the individual fragments that it became.
Anything that doesn't rely on making the assumption that because one realm has a statement of being infinite and another lacks any statements about it's size it means one is infinitely bigger than the other.
Anything that doesn't rely on making the assumption that because one realm has a statement of being infinite and another lacks any statements about it's size it means one is infinitely bigger than the other.
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The Human World/World of Chaos is a multi-layered system. If I can prove that each layer has infinite universes and timelines, wouldn’t that be enough for 1-C?
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Depending on the context and evidence presented, possibly.
Some people would say this:
Some people would say this:
Is evidence that World of Chaos is a multi-layered system, despite it only being evidence of the World of Chaos being a standard multiverse construct and wouldn't further this upgrade in any way that isn't already discussed and accepted.
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I'm confused as to why you're focusing on this aspect in particular, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand
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Theres also stuff about the multiverse having numerous higher layers of space-time
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Also has purgatorio been brought up at any point in this thread? The fact that destroying a universe in Chaod is actually destroying two universes due to each universe having it's own parallel universe in Purgatorio, ie. destroying Chaos means destroying two infinite multiverses
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If you have any other quote or scan besides the one I was commenting own that could support what they are saying then please present it, or is this just the Paradiso isn’t stated to be infinite conjecture again.
Then present the quotes and scans.
Not particularly relevant because of how 2-A and Low 1-C functions. Anything that gets you Low 1-C would be just as applicable if it was the single mutliverse of the World of Chaos.
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The Human World has always been a 12-D Multiverse since Bayo2. The 3rd game just elaborated on it. The World of Chaos is a Matrix created by Aesir with overlapping layers of space and time, and while you could argue that the layers were just building blocks of a single universe in the past, that’s obviously no longer the case. Time & space are what make dimensions and the fact that these are layers of time and space are stacked up & woven into a system implies dimensionality.
The fact that each layer has infinite universes should support this & larger layers having infinite universes within should say more.
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You need quite a bit more elaboration on what those layers mean. An off handed mention with no additional context can't really be used for anything, even with the multiverse structure we know of now. We really can't say that each layer has it's own separate multiverse.
Also "multi-layered structure with countless universes" can mean that the layers are because of the multiple universes, and as that is the direction the English translation takes I would go with that one unless any further expansion is given.
Plus, even with all this taken as the way you interpret it. On it's own and not touching the rest of the the Trinity stuff, not enough for even Low 1-C. You have to have evidence that their is an qualitative difference between layers to achieve that. Which merely containing their own seprate mutliverses and being different sizes would not be enough.
Can mean that the multiple layers all together form the singular time and space, instead of each layer being their own separate time and space.
The outside of time mention is just because the way that the universe in question she visited developed in a different way to her's so in some fashions it's behind the time of the universe she originated from.
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No i mean, you keep saying it as though chaos is a single universe, when Chaos refers to the multiverse in its entirety
Minaj is going to be doing that apparently
Characters who can significantly affect spaces of qualitatively greater sizes than ordinary universal models and spaces, usually represented in fiction by higher levels or states of existence (Or "levels of infinity", as referred below) which trivialize everything below them into insignificance, normally by perceiving them as akin to fictional constructs or something infinitesimal.
