Adventure Time upgrades

[DocAnimeTheory]

Before time and anything existed there was the void, and before that there were primordial monsters. A primordial monster, GOLB is already 2-C so he should scale to the other primordial monsters too.

Hence The Lich, Hunson Abadeer, Orgalorg should be 2-C.

Finn is a catalyst comet. Catalyst Comets are a series of mythical comets belonging to some kind of universal essence of everything, a kind of sentient nirvana if you will. They are not just embodiments of the Cosmic Mind or Cosmic Imagination, but of the entire universe.

Hence Finn should be 3-A possibly Low 2-C.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Ummm... I honestly do not know ... What to say to this. Hmm... I'll see what others think.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

The thing is, The Primordial Monster feats have been 5-B or 5-A at most so far (bar the statement by The Lich, which could be 4-C). We don't even know if GOLB is a primordial monster, it was never stated or implied that he was.

Catalyst Comets could be Low 2-C though, given this quote:

"The Comet Collided. It was, at last, the end.

The massive explosion sent clouds of dust over the planet, blocking the sun for hundreds of years, bringing about an Age of Extinction.

In a nearby dimension, a sleeping being -- perhaps that which dreams out universe that which slumbers beneath the surface of Reality -- began to awaken. Its eyes opened wide at the magnitude of the catastrophe.

The ancient elementals, our universe, all disappeared as the dream dissolved. The sleeper yawned, reached for its crown on the nigh stand, put it in and looked through the widow. In the sky, a ball of light. The sleeper was stunned by this apocalyptic coincidence and realized that it was a comet much like the one in his dream, coming closer.

In moments, the Comet would destroy the Sleepers world. His only hope was the vague, unlikely possibility that yet another sleeper who had been dreaming him and indeed, the dream within the dream.

But did it matter, O Reader. Who was dreaming whom. For no matter how you cut it, it was perfectly clear in the final sentence of our tale, The end was near."

But due to their nature, The Catalyst Comets would be a Variable tier.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

So, an catalyst comet is not an set Low 2-C character ? So, would Finn have any changes to his tiering at all, or would it just say Varies..?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

The Catalyst Comets are bringers of change, not destruction. Their nature of this makes them variable in power. The one in the Legends of the Elementals destroyed a universe, but the one that landed on Ooo only killed the Dinosaurs. Another Catalyst Comet was said to be able to destroy the Time Room, which was implied to be higher dimensional space.

We don't know what the one Finn was brought to Ooo on was like.

 

[DocAnimeTheory]

Orgalorg was going to absorb a catalyst comet, also Glob who is around The Lich's level was able to repell GOLB.

There's two Low 2-C feets for the Primordial Monsters.

 

[DocAnimeTheory]

The catalyst comet that landed in Ooo changed the laws of physics and magic though. Hence universal.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Changing the laws of physics in a planet isn't nowhere near Universal

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

GOLB destroyed the Pillow Dimension from his presence alone, Orgalorg treats destroying planets as a big deal. They're not close in strength.

As for Orgalorg absorbing the Comet, he didn't, he just tried doing it and got stopped by Grob Gob Glob Grod before he could succeed.

 

[DocAnimeTheory]

I think giving the Primordial Monsters Low 2-C possibly 2-C durability but not AP could work.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

But that wouldn't work either since Finn hurt The Lich and Orgalorg, and Hunson Abadeer was implied to have fought The Lich multiple times.

I do think GOLBs low end should be Low 2-C though, since his presence destroyed the Pillow Dimension, reducing it to a void of nothingness.

 

[DocAnimeTheory]

Honestly if they existed before time, the universe, and possibly the multiverse they are Low 2-C possibly 2-A. You are using anti-feats to disprove a feat which is incorrect from what i understand.

We have plenty of Light Novel characters in tier 1 when the verse doesn't even have Building level destruction feats.

 

[The_Everlasting]

It's not anti-feats, it's using literally every appearance of the characters minus this single brief mention.

 

[DocAnimeTheory]

Orgalorg was about to absorb a catalyst comet before he was stopped by Glob.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Why would absorbing something scale to his AP?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

@Ever. Exactly. The Liches sole motivation is to destroy all life in the universe, if he was Low 2-C, he would've done it at some point by now. Anti-Feats is Goku getting hurt by Sorbet, this is several things vs a brief mention.

I think having the "Possibly much higher" is fine until we see some higher end feats.

 

[DocAnimeTheory]

iirc The Lich was partially overriding Prismo's power in the episode where Finn uses The Maid too.

 

[DocAnimeTheory]

@The Everlasting

Catalyst Comets are embodiments of the Universe. So absorbing one should be a universal feat.

 

[DocAnimeTheory]

@Darkanine

Yea... Prismo would then just reverse the Lich's universal destruction.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

But he didn't absorb it. He was going to but was stopped and defeated by Grob Gob Glob Grod. Also, Orgalorg was crushed by the gravity of earth and Grob Gob Glob Grods body was destroyed by Martins spaceship. Theirs to much stuff that contradict a single, vague Universal statement.

As for The Lich overpowering Prismo, I don't recall that but I can rewatch the episode to make sure.

 

[The_Everlasting]

IIRC The Lich only overpowered Prismo's powerless human body.

 

[DocAnimeTheory]

@Darkanine

It's in Season 7 Episode 23 iirc. There are countless characters who are rated at a certain level because they were going to do x.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Theirs a difference, though.

Goliad Was said to be able to destroy the Candy Castle, so we rate her at Town level.

Orgalorg Was planning on absorbing a comet (which, we don't even know would've succeeded, mind you) to achieve a higher mode of existence. This plan didn't work out so we can't in good faith rate him at Low 2-C.

And as I said before, to much stuff would contradict ratings above Tier 4 unless we get a deeper understanding of there lore.

But as I said before, I am okay with upgrading GOLB to Low 2-C.

 

[DocAnimeTheory]

@Darkanine

We have the concept of Attack Potency on this wiki.

"A character with a certain degree of attack potency does not necessarily need to cause destructive feats on that level, but can cause damage to characters that can withstand such forces."

The fact that Orgalorg was only shown destroying planets means nothing. Orgalorg and the other primordials may only have 5-B destructive capacity but they have Low 2-C possibly 2-A attack potency.

You are using a characters DC to disprove his AP.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Except his argument has nothing to do with the distinction between DC and AP?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

How many times am I going to have to explain this...

If The Lich was Low 2-C, then he would have no struggle fulfilling his goal in ending all life in the universe, yet he has met his demise multiple times, by characters who have never shown feats above arguably Star level.

I get that AP =/= DC, but theirs a limit to that argument, and when the only showing for a Low 2-C (not counting Orgalorgs "feat" of planning to absorb the Catalyst Comet) is a single, vague statement that is contradicted by nearly every, if not every showing they had, then it's just not usable. I'm sorry man, I would love Low 2-C Lich too, but I don't see it happening.

 

[DocAnimeTheory]

Except his argument has nothing to do with the distinction between DC and AP?

Read the above comment.

 

[DocAnimeTheory]

Attack Potency is a core concept of this wiki, it has no "limit". In Season 7 Episode 23 Prismo was unable to stop The Lich so he had to send Finn and Jake. Also, Glob who is around The Lich's level was able to repell GOLB in the past.

Again your using showings of DC to contradict AP. Nothing has contradicted the Lich existing before time, the universe, and possibly the multiverse.

Anyways im done with this for now.

 

[Ryukama]

Yes Attack Potency is a core concept of this wiki. But you can't just chalk off everything that contradicts a single vague statement with "Attack Potency." Or else there would be no reason for us to discard anything as a hyperbole or outlier.

And I don't think the only thing people have against this is that every other Adventure Time character Lich scales to has nothing remotely close to this in feats/statements. But rather a key element of Lich's entire character and plan would be vastly different if he was as strong as you say he is.

The Lich is a being who longs for ending all life in the universe. To the point where when he cannot kill he literally just stays frozen cause he has no other purpose than to be killing. If he was truly a universe buster, there is no reason at all why he wouldn't have succeeded by now.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

@Ryu

Thank you for explaining that a million times better then I did.

 

[Ryukama]

@Dark Lol thanks for the kind words and no problem.

 

[DocAnimeTheory]

@Ryukama

But the Lich would not be able to destroy the universe if he only had universal AP..

 

[Ryukama]

And nothing besides one vague statement which is gone against by every other showing in the series supports that he has universal AP.

Tell me this. If everything that contradicts how powerful you think this guy is can be handwaved away by saying "Attack Potency," how is anything here considered an outlier or hyperbole?

• Master Roshi busting the moon isn't an outlier. The fact that vastly superior characters' greatest attacks/statements being far lower doesn't matter. Their attacks just have low AP. Not an outlier.

• Homer Simpson is Town level. Everyone he scales to only has Town level AP they can't destroy a town. It isn't an outlier. And the fact that literally every other showing of his durability is vastly lesser than Town level. Anti-Feats and Attack Potency. Not an outlier.

• Metal Bat being stated to have infinite power. Well what does it matter that people who are gods to him have at best Planet level showings? They only have 5-B AP and not High 3-A destructive capacity. Not a hyperbole.

Tier 2 Sonic, 3-A Kirby, High 3-A Hulk, Tier 1 Superman. If one calls every showing that contradicts something a mere case of low DC and high AP, all of these need to become a thing.

Attack Potency is a very significant concept on this site and one that I find of massive importance in VS debating. But it can only be used so far before it's just being abused to prevent anything from being discarded.

I know you're going to find some arbitrary reasons why my examples differ from this one. But my point remains the same that we don't just use "Attack Potency" as some cop out to prevent characters from being any lower than we want them to be. And that contrary to what you said, Attack Potency does have limits.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I don't mean to be disrespectful but given the presentations of Ryukama and Darkanine I am not exactly sure why this thread is still being humored with discussion.