Addressing Roshi's Feat

[00potato]

At this point, with all the support.
Could this be added?

 

[Antvasima]

Let's wait a bit to see what the opposition says first.

Also, we need to figure out how to properly scale all of the affected characters from this, or should that be done in another thread?

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

So, what's the final decision?

 

[KLOL506]

Let's wait a bit to see what the opposition says first.

Also, we need to figure out how to properly scale all of the affected characters from this, or should that be done in another thread?

Like already discussed in the OP, only 4 characters from the OG Dragon Ball would be 5-C and they are all god-tiers of the OG Dragon Ball pre-Z- MAX Power Roshi, 23rd Budokai Goku, King Piccolo and Piccolo Jr.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Just going to pop in and say the discussion about Kamis “5-C feats” scaling to regular AP was never finished but glossed over as well. These points from AKM still stand.

It is said right there on the scan you linked.
1. Popo's speed was too great for Goku to keep track of. Goku asks why didn't he see anything.
2. Popo says Goku was only looking with his eyes and that he needs to clear his soul, sharpen his spirit and feel the slightest movements in the atmosphere (this is not only extrasensory perception, it is also enhanced senses).

And that's how Popo taught Goku how to keep track of faster opponents. That has nothing to do with speed. The only speed part here is Popo blitzing Goku or demonstrating his own speed while specifically telling Goku that he needs to move faster than lightning.

No that statement is taken out of context and incorrectly translated. The conversation was how Guru was about to die in a few days and that Krillin needed to hurry up before that. And that Guru was not able to move from there and not even Nail would be able to protect him if Freeza arrives. Nothing about being able to protect himself or his balls from Freeza in his prime.

He is different case given how he is unable to make dragon balls and the dragon balls disappeared when Kami merged with him, meaning he isn't your regular dragon clan Namekian and clearly an abnormality given how powerful he was as compared to the rest of his race. That's why Goku asked if he can un-fuse again. Kami clearly possessed much more magical prowess given the scenario while Piccolo only had next to nothing. And that was the whole reason why Goku went looking for a new dragon clan Namekian. That analogy is unrelated to Kami who was so much more magically inclined as to be able to create the dragon balls which only the dragon-clan members can do.

Your comment itself points out why this feat is gag and isn't meant to be taken seriously. Even the manga pays direct homage to the beloved Japanese "Rabbit on the Moon" folklore for children where rabbits live on the Moon making mochi. Toriyama also says that Monster Carrot and his crew survived the explosion of the Moon and are still floating in space. So I guess they have Moon level durability now and those humans can survive in the vacuum of space, but Goku and Vegeta can't? This has gone from validating Roshi's outlier to validating every other blatant inconsistency/outlier/gag in DB which would ultimately invalidate a massive plot point of Freeza saga and RoF arc.

Also, being able to tell when the power pole should stop extending/retracting wouldn't be possible if its speed was sooooo much greater than Goku's, who couldn't even see a Popo who was only lightning fast. (We not that on Monster Carrot's profile because we don't assume he is a regular human given his...you know...appearance and such, but honestly I am indifferent about giving him the ability to survive in space and it doesn't really matter here.)

It would have made perfect sense for Kami to be 5-C regularly if we didn't treat Roshi's feat an outlier, because powerscaling. But as long as Roshi's feat itself is invalidated, we have no reason to assume as such.


I will agree with you here. While I get that an empty statement by a guy who called himself "limitless/omnipotent" depending on the translations and constantly hyped himself as someone who is unbeatable even though he knew of Kami's existence, is hard to believe without him backing it up. But I personally don't think King Piccolo would have said something like that to the whole world if he wasn't capable of that, when he was just going to demonstrate it in a little while. I mean, talk about the embarrassment he would have felt if it didn't happen the way he described to the whole world after talking so big. I think we can get it calculated how much energy is needed to destroy 1/43rd of the world's land in the same way he destroyed this city as an example.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think Matthew Schroeder is pretty much the only staff member who's that strongly against it at this point; me an AKM Sama are fairly open-minded and are honestly fine with Moon level Roshi if the rest of the staff are. For us, it's mostly the speed is what makes the feat seem out of place. And SD did bring up a list of other speed feats; though I'm super iffy on Kid Goku's FTL speed feat regarding Solar Flare. I'm not even sure if that's real light given it does become more Massively FTL+ later in the series.

I'm honestly fine at this point. But I'd want to give the opposition like at least one last chance and hear input from staff who haven't even commented yet. I know Ryukama hasn't commented on Dragon Ball stuff in ages by the looks of it and don't blame the guy. But iirc, he actually seems to support the upgrade.

 

[Antvasima]

Understood. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

I'm sure this has been going on for a while. Personally speaking, I'm not against it since it's pretty much the precursor to what's to come from this franchise. I apologize if this isn't a valid reason but that's my only take on the matter. That and apparently, according to Super, he's still been training long enough to go up against other opponents.

 

[SomebodyData]

The distance between Tien and Goku would probably keep it from FTL, but for the time being, we don't really need to calculate that.

@ProfessorKukui4Life I already responded to that point, pointing out we have different translations. (I think he's using VIZ? Although I should check the translator of mine too), and like I said, other magic users have magic definitely comparable to the to their chi. As for the other argument revolving Dende being Kami's replacement, I don't believe he ever ended up bringing the scan that stated Piccolo could not use magic / create dragon balls despite being part of dragon clan.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I don't believe he ever ended up bringing the scan that stated Piccolo could not use magic / create dragon balls despite being part of dragon clan.

It was part of the same chapter Dende came to earth, I’ll link it from the site I was using before.

Edit: Here’s the chapter.

But Goku explicitly came to the lookout first and foremost to ask Piccolo if Kami could come back to create new dragon balls to use against Cell killing people (which would already suggest Piccolo can’t create them or else Goku wouldn’t have went through the trouble of asking them to unfuse again). And on top of that, Dende would’ve never been needed to come to Earth if Piccolo could already do what the former was needed for really.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Oh even better, Null managed to get the scan on imgur already. Goodie.

 

[SSJRyu1]

I know i'm not staff, but for the record, as a knowledgeable member on DB, I fully support 5-C for Max Power Roshi for similar reasons to the OP. As for scaling, Old King Piccolo and up for sure should scale since Roshi felt he could do nothing to him without Mafuba, even if he teamed up with Tien. Tien and 22 budokai Goku you could argue they never faced Max power Roshi so don't scale, or that they just surpass him in general since Roshi says they have, and therefore do scale. Either would be a reasonable stance. I won't comment more unless people want my take on other issues though, in keeping with the staff only thing.

 

[SomebodyData]

@ProfessorKukui4Life It sounds more likes it a bit more tied to the status of God, by the way Goku frames it on the second page, then whether Piccolo can create dragon balls or not.

Especially considering Dende didn't make new dragon balls. They just tied his life to the previous ones, hence why we still have Shenron instead of a new dragon-like Porunga.

@SSJRyu1 (and I guess everyone else that popped in recently too) I don't want to sound rude, but this thread is staff only and I just reminded another person about that.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@ProfessorKukui4Life It sounds more likes it a bit more tied to the status of God, by the way Goku frames it on the second page, then whether Piccolo can create dragon balls or not.

Especially considering Dende didn't make new dragon balls. They just tied his life to the previous ones, hence why we still have Shenron instead of a new dragon-like Porunga.

Didn’t dende use Kamis Shenron dragon model though when doing that? While not Porunga, it would suggest that he made a different Shenron from Kamis when modeling it to do more wishes than the OG one did. If it was just about connecting Dendes life to Shenron, he wouldn’t have modified Shenrons wishing abilities (and technically to be fair, Dende did acknowledge to Gohan that he could’ve made the dragon like Porunga when asked about it).

Not to mention, if it was just about tying his life to Shenrons, why wouldn’t Piccolo do that then if he was able to?

 

[SomebodyData]

@ProfessorKukui4Life Kami refers to that process as resurrecting Shenlong, so regardless it'd be the same thing. It just sounds like Dende adjusted the limits of Shenron- they did the same to Porunga apparently sometime after they left for New Namek too.

Goku answers that within the last panel, he expects the Z-Fighters will need the balls for themselves. This is also right after he told Piccolo he stands no chance against Cell. It's kinda dark despite Goku saying duh was played for comedic effect.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Someone sent me this scan for Solar Flare context. Just a heads up.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@ProfessorKukui4Life Kami refers to that process as resurrecting Shenlong, so regardless it'd be the same thing.

Not quite though. This was after King Piccolo killed Shenron right? Of course Shenron would be resurrected, especially since Kami was still around to do it easily. But in case, both Kami and Shenron vanished when he fused with Piccolo, so there’s nothing left of Shenron for Dende to resurrect.

It just sounds like Dende adjusted the limits of Shenron- they did the same to Porunga apparently sometime after they left for New Namek too.

Not the number of wishes though. I know what your referring to here but it’s not quite the same.

Moori adjusted the limitations of what Porungas wishes could do, such as reviving more than one person with a single wish. Dende on the other hand made Shenron be capable of granting a greater number of wishes as a whole than what Shenron was allowed to use when Kami was around.

Goku answers that within the last panel, he expects the Z-Fighters will need the balls for themselves. This is also right after he told Piccolo he stands no chance against Cell. It's kinda dark despite Goku saying duh was played for comedic effect.

I’m not sure what this point was supposed to be for.

 

[SomebodyData]

Ngl, you should have checked for context after you found those scans and before you commented them.

I'm just proving you don't need an entirely new Shenron to adjust their mechanics. If you have scans for it being a new Shenron, this would be the time to present them.

The reason why they didn't connect it to Piccolo was that they were sure most of the Z-Fighters would die against Cell. This is also right after they stated Cell would easily kill Piccolo.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Ngl, you should have checked for context after you found those scans and before you commented them.

Not sure what this is supposed to prove, unless your saying Shenron was alive the entire time and didn’t need to be resurrected?

The reason why they didn't connect it to Piccolo was that they were sure most of the Z-Fighters would die against Cell. This is also right after they stated Cell would easily kill Piccolo.

I’m not sure how this matters here since Goku and everyone there knows Piccolo dying at earlier times would mean Kamis death, which equates to the dragon balls being taken away either way. Whether it’s connected to Piccolo, or Piccolo unfused to bring Kami back, the dragon balls would’ve still been at risk in the end.

And the latter option is what Goku originally had in mind before suggesting getting a new God since he immediately asked Piccolo first and foremost if Kami could come back to bring the dragon balls back. Meaning, Goku was fully aware of the risk of the balls being taken had Piccolos possible death against Cell would kill Kami.

 

[SomebodyData]

What on Earth is that interpretation? It just shows Shenron wasn't erased completely by Kami's fusing with Piccolo and that Dende just did what Kami did after KP.

But now they can change that.

Because that would be the easiest option, Goku only remembered about New Namek after the second page in the scans you brought.

 

[SomebodyData]

Sorry missed you there @DarkDragonMedeus that's cool. I can see the interpretation that it grows stronger (it never states it gets faster), but not that it would create 'slower light' though from what you brought forward.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

If you or anyone saw the response I deleted, just ignore it plz.

I’m not responding to the current discussion at this point.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I concede to "At least 7-B, possibly 5-C"

 

[SomebodyData]

Well now it's really a tie (Given how some in the 5-C section are okay with the other) between straight-up 5-C and At least 7-B, possibly 5-C.

In my opinion, I would say straight up 5-C would probably make the scaling a bit easier. Not to mention, possibly is reserved for "the justification being vague or non-definitive"; something the feat clearly isn't given we aren't debating whether the feat would be considered Moon level or not, just if its an outlier.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Ya know, considering the fact that this feat is pretty blatant and the argument is whether we consider it or not, I'm gonna say SD is right and go with a full-on "5-C" rating. "Possibly" is mostly reserved for characters who probably scale to a character with X rating or if the feat itself is vague or not 100% clear.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I thinks straight 5-C is better too but I’ll take what I can get.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

So who’s gonna calc the feat?

 

[LordTracer]

So who’s gonna calc the feat?

I put it in the calc request thread, so hopefully that goes somewhere.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Of possibly 5-C is fine for those who scale from Roshi, and King Piccolo, and outright 5-C I would be reasonable for Teen Goku, Piccolo Jr, and Kami at least.

 

[Antvasima]

And what statistics should the characters below that level have?

 

[LordTracer]

Of possibly 5-C is fine for those who scale from Roshi, and King Piccolo, and outright 5-C I would be reasonable for Teen Goku, Piccolo Jr, and Kami at least.

Technically Goku was a teenager when he fought King Piccolo and Tenshinhan.

Edit: Oh wait, I forgot this was staff-only. Sorry.

 

[AKM sama]

Seems pretty much everyone agrees to not treat the feat as an outlier but how this causes inconsistency in the speed department hasn't been addressed or talked about by anyone who voiced their support for 5-C (excluding SD of course).

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Just going to put it out there but since the moon feat is (I’m guessing?) going to be calced, what will happen regarding that assuming the feat gives results higher than 5-C?

 

[AKM sama]

I don't see how it can be calculated as there is no explosion or anything calc-worthy shown in the manga. That's the reason why even Piccolo's Moon feat calc was discarded.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I see. Though didn’t someone above put in a request for it to be calculated?

 

[Deako97]

I personally would rate the following charcaters:

King piccolo : casually 7B, confirmed 6B (when he stated he would destroy 1 section of earth every year, theres 43 sections on earth it would seem like its country level atleast)

Rosh: 5C only in max power (he cant fight in max power it also takes to long yo charge a max power kamehameha for a fight)

Kami : 5C for recreating the moon

picoclo jr : minimum 6A for destroying papaya island and 5C for tanking gokus super kamehameha with minimum damage

Teen goku: minimum 6A for tanking piccolo destroying papaya island with minimum damage and launching super kamehameha which guidebooks confirms moon level/moon shattering attack

 

[Drite77]

So, I was asked to calc the moon feat wby LordTracer, saying that the moon was vaporized. Here is the result, if he vaporized or not that is up to people decide

 

[AKM sama]

Also why is "faster than lightning" even being discussed? Not only is it a throwaway line, but Goku was never shown struggling with lightning in the manga. This is like saying no one in Z surpassed the speed of light because of Dyspo.

I actually like this hypocritical argument. I distinctly remember the time when the wiki did not treat Popo as lightning fast because the line was apparently "flowery language that wasn't literal", and I distinctly remember making a thread addressing the same issue as that statement along with the demonstration of speed completely implies it to be literal and not just another flowery language and I remember most people present in this thread agreeing with me. That's how Popo actually got upgraded.

But suddenly that statement is now a throw-away statement because it is getting in the way of another upgrade. Huh. I don't know why I am surprised lol.

Anyway, the statement about Dyspo being FTL doesn't disprove him being MFTL+ because he is still faster than light and by how much isn't mentioned in that statement. It was also a thing of past as the statement also said that he surpassed the speed of sound. Neither does it disprove anything in Z for the same reason. And attack names don't count. So that's a totally invalid comparison.

 

[Drite77]

Apparently you get alot of likes if you make a calc that may upgrade Dragon Ball, I'll remember that for the future

 

[SomebodyData]

Alright, @AKM sama, you are a bureaucrat. Please behave and don't just call peoples' arguments hypocritical.

I found the thread you were speaking of. No one here, safe for Cal who didn't have an opinion, was even present on that thread. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume you misremembered everything.

@Everyone again let's keep this staff only. At this point, no member should be replying on the thread unless a topic (Like magic for Null or King Piccolo's feat for ProfessorKukui) comes up again or you got permission to say something valuable to the discussion (I mean we're already on the 4th page of the thread for crying out loud).

At this point, the only ones that really should be talking are members who got permission to talk about the calc (though I disagree with there actually being an effective one here) or ones who can provide information about the scaling.