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It's sort of important, since that's all what High 1-B and higher is based on.
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Adding The Low Dimensional Game Verse
- Thread starter ActuallySpaceMan42
- Start date
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- #42
I still have no idea what you're asking me right now.
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You need to prove that the higher spaces quantify for Aleph-2 and beyond. Nothing until the end really gets there.
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- #44
Dimensions work through embedding and infintesimalizing structures in LDG which is valid.
Earth's Universe is Infinite DImensional that's just straight out stated so it would be High 1-B.
Its entirety is embedded within the Endless Space-Time which is infinitely larger than its structure allows. That would be Low 1-A.
The Endless Space-Time is a Multidimensional Universe but never stated to have infinite dimensions. And we know Endless Universes exist. Based on the concept of Infinity there would be an endless number of universes like the Endless Space-Time.
We also know these Universes range from 2-D to Infinite DImensions as the Outer Dimensions are stated to embed Infinite Dimensional Universes which would be an infinite number of steps above the Endless Space-Time. 1-A+
I don't understand what I have to prove here? What part of this is incorrect?
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Adding more infinites doesn't move them to higher Tier 1 positions. You need to prove higher layers of stacked infinites and the gap between it.
It's why I don't see 1-A+ being reached until until end and why I'm not seeing High 1-A at all.
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- #46
I don't understand the logic you are following here.
The Endless Space-Time could be a 8th Dimensional Universe, it doesn't matter. Endless Universes ranging from 2-D to Inf-D automatically mean that there is a Higher 9th Dimensional Universe that embeds the Endless Space-Time seeing as an Infinitesimal Shadow embedded within it, akin to a grain of sand. That alone by the definition of the Tiering System would make that 9th Dimensional Universe 1-A, it wouldn't be another infinity because it would need to exist within the Endless Space-Times structure, which it does not.
We also know that the dimensions of a Universe are contained to their Space-Time as the Outer Dimensions are clearly stated to exist beyond their bounds. If you need a larger gap between dimensions, there are statements saying lower dimensions are like dreams or pictures in a book compared to higher dimensions.
Even without the Outer Dimensions. If we just completely ignored the existence of Outer Dimensions the Endless Space-Time and its very structure would be embedded within in an infinite number of Higher Dimensional Universes.
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Well to quote this
This wouldn't be 1-A+, just 1-A. It imbedding a Low 1-A structure in the same fashion it does the lower stuff would just be Aleph-2 assuming the gap between them is greater than the gap between the Aleph-1 space and the Aleph-0 space. Since an Aleph-2 space can contain an uncountably infinite number of Aleph-1 spaces. To get 1-A+ you'd need to show evidence of constant levels of higher Alephs with Alephs-3 and beyond. Which I'm just not seeing until the final levels and I'm not really seeing High 1-A rather than just some infinite level of Aleph vs a Large Cardinal.
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- #48
But that's what I said.
The Endless Space-Time is Aleph 1 (Low 1-A), the Higher Dimensional Universe above it would be Aleph 2 (1-A), the Higher Dimensional Universe above that one would be Aleph 3, repeat to Aleph 4, Aleph 5, Aleph 6. This would happen Infinitely as there are Endless Higher-Dimensional Universes above the Endless Space-Time that each transcends the structure of the Endless ones embedded in them.
This would make this entire hierarchy 1-A+ which is Infinite Steps, which the above explanation would reach.
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I personally agree with this.
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- Thread starter
- #51
I'm simply saying those kinds of issues didn't really appear. As Zaratthustra told me I'm more than willing to supply the raw text alongside the translation. The issues Agnaa is worried about just don't exist from what I have read.
Maybe if it was a stand-alone novel I could understand the issues. However the fact everything I read in the sequel, including the unique terms, phrases, places, etc lined up with the human translation for the first novel proves should say something. Not allowing a Verse it based on the possibility of inaccuracy instead of if it actually is a bit weird.
In the end, during making the Cosmology page I only needed to retranslate one thing, and it was a blatantly obvious thing to fix. The other error was on my own interpretation, not the translation.
Maybe if it was a stand-alone novel I could understand the issues. However the fact everything I read in the sequel, including the unique terms, phrases, places, etc lined up with the human translation for the first novel proves should say something. Not allowing a Verse it based on the possibility of inaccuracy instead of if it actually is a bit weird.
In the end, during making the Cosmology page I only needed to retranslate one thing, and it was a blatantly obvious thing to fix. The other error was on my own interpretation, not the translation.
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- #52
Appreciate the sentiment, but most of the Cosmology and our conversation is regarding the sequel which Nyoi-Bo Studio has not gotten to translate yet. Thank you all the same though.
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Not precisely. You would need to prove that they're beyond the lower Aleph by a higher Aleph. Simply being infinitely higher is not a qualifier afaik.
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- #54
R > F differences already cover that. As long as the Higher Dimensional Universes don't exist inside the framework over the lower Aleph Universes, then that means their R > F is beyond just infinity.
This reasoning is enough for so many other verses Idk why your saying I need to prove that it's a higher aleph.
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I'm not really reading it that way
There's an infinite amount of cardinals between Aleph numbers.
I'm seeing it for the end I guess, but I'm not seeing 1-A+ rather than just some degree of above 1-A.
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- #56
The Leviathan uses R > F differences to get to High 1-A, Akuto uses R > F to get to High 1-A, The Writer uses R > F to get to High 1-A. R > F is able to cover the distance way beyond Alephs, I don't know why it wouldn't here.
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Not quite, otherwise seeing a Tier 2 multiverse as fiction would be 1-A. From what I've seen on discord, cases like that only apply if the system where the verse's 1-A comes from is entirely based on dimensions or other system that isn't R>F, which then the latter supersedes as a whole new axiom and gets High 1-A, but take it with a grain of salt.
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- #58
Well, I didn't mean R > F automatically gets you to 1-A, I just meant it's capable of crossing the distance between two alephs if it can cross the difference between 1-A+ and High 1-A.
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If that was the case, seeing a Low 1-C structure (Aleph-1 universes) as fiction would be 1-A (Aleph-2 amount of anything), which we know it doesn't happen like that.
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- #60
You're misunderstanding. Me and Qawsedf234 are disagreeing about this; Viewing a 1-A Structure in its entirety, not from being on top of it or being at the top of the Hierarchy, but in its entirety via a R > F diffrence should be another layer into 1-A. But he's saying that's not the case and it's just another infinity.
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If the 1-A hierarchy itself is already based on R>F chains, then it should indeed be just higher into 1-A. If it isn't and the R>F is a whole new system compared to it, then it should be High 1-A. I believe that's how some of the verses you mentioned above got High 1-A/0 to begin with.
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- #62
Well the thing about LDG has like Inner and Outer Dimensions.
So the Endless Space-Time is Low 1-A because it's Infinitely larger than Universes with Inf-D. At the same time, it could just be a 6-D Universe in the Outer Dimensions, with a 7th Dimensional Universe viewing its Low 1-A Structure as fictional making that 7Th Dimensional Universe 1-A. And then an 8th Dimensional Universe would do the same thing.
Within the Outer Dimensions, there are endless universes, some of the same dimensions and some of the different ones, which means endless of every dimension Infinite/5 = Infinite you get the idea.
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How to prove such a thing if the verse does not use very advanced mathematical notions?
Would the mathematical standards have become much stricter?
This is also my understanding, normally an R>F layer is equivalent to a jump of one aleph higher but maybe the standards have changed and we need very strict mathematical proof now. (?)
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- #64
That's what I'm trying to understand. I dont know when mathmatical evidence was required to jump alephs when R > F diffrences used to work just fine.
Cat275
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I mean a r>f is considered as Aleph 1 difference because of probably the cantors set, but i don't think you need to mathematically prove it's aleph 2 or aleph 1 power set (aleph 1^aleph 1) because the wiki pretty much approve seeing L1-A as fiction can give you tier 1-A and seeing 1-A as fiction gets you one layer up as far as i know.
(Unless the wiki became more strict and i just didn't notice.)
(Unless the wiki became more strict and i just didn't notice.)
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Cat275
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I mean it's a jump of layers yes, but not alephs.
(Alephs are treated a bit weirdly here but first and foremost it's kinda lowballed a little.)
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Normally mathematical proofs are not necessary, otherwise many verses would be downgraded
Indeed, I said "aleph" because here the layers 1-A are considered as alephs
I also think that assimilating alephs and large cardinals to layers is strange
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- #68
Bump
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- #69
Bump
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@Qawsedf234 @Pain_to12 @Zaratthustra
What do you think about Agnaa's concerns above?
Also, what are the conclusions here so far?
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One novel has been human translated while the other is MTL and supplementary. I think anyone concerned about the MTL should read Low Dimensional Game and then the MTL of Rebirth to find contradictions, errors, naming changes, etc, to judge it's overall quality. ActuallySpaceMan has done this. The 'broader context' is mostly in the prequel, the most OP has to do is post the raws for verification.
Unless it already happened, I think that there should be a staff thread on partial and full MTL novels before a decision is made in this thread. I say partial because I am pretty sure not every raw is verified by a human. People seem to use Deepl.
Unless it already happened, I think that there should be a staff thread on partial and full MTL novels before a decision is made in this thread. I say partial because I am pretty sure not every raw is verified by a human. People seem to use Deepl.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,073
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If the raw of every necessary part to the pages can be gotten then verified or translated by a wiki translator, then I guess his concerns can be resolved, but I really don’t see how that can be done as it is tedious.
And I also share Agnaa’s Concerns, we don’t need another run down of what happened with Shinza due to bad and MLT translations.
But if the supporters are willing to put in the work and get the raws and someone to translate it, then I guess it can be fine. That’s the only solution I can think of.
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- #73
I don't mind doing that work for all the raws regarding the Cosmology page since that's pretty important.
Though I feel like when it comes to the abilities, it would be easier to have a translator check the accuracy and quality of MTL altogether.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,073
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Well if you can do that, that would be generally helpful with the accuracy of the pages
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It was already accepted to use such translations (in the past 2 threads about this subject) as long as the original text is present so there is not problem. Like it was said above, Low Dimensional Game is translated by an actual translator while the rest is not so if it follows the requirement of having both the original and the MTL/self-translated text then is okay.
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So I just have to do it like Anos's page and stuff?
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Okay. I suppose that it is probably fine then. So what are the conclusions here so far regarding what should be done in this revision then?
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- #78
Alright, so I'll hire a commission to translate the Raws that are used in the cosmology page to English and link them next to each MTL Translation.
And when I make the MTL Profiles for the verse I'll follow how Anos's profile does it and have Imgur showing both the raw and MTL.
And when I make the MTL Profiles for the verse I'll follow how Anos's profile does it and have Imgur showing both the raw and MTL.
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- #80
I mean I already put weeks into making the pages and I need human translations to get the Cosmology stuff accepted right? Unless there is someone on the wiki who does translations like that for free I don't really see any other option.
