Adding 3 More Feats to Mario

[DatOneWeeb]

Reshaping the world in this context just means getting rid of paper-thin beings.

No, he literally wants the entire world reshaped to his image, that's literally the plot of the game, not just the people, but everything. And yet again before you claim world means planet only in this context, due to Olly affecting space, it already means he has his sights further than just the planet. So how much more? The very fabric of reality. Which would make sense if he wants to reshape absolutely everything, including the Toads the most. So if he wants to affect every Toad as well, he'd need to reach into space as well, due to Toads enjoying to travel around space (Galaxy, Galaxy 2), party or kart there (Mario Party, Mario Kart), or just appear in space for no explained reason (Paper Mario TTYD, Odyssey). So overall, no, he isn't only saying he wants all people reshape, he wants the very fabric of reality reshaped.

Big words like "fabric of reality" do not directly mean space-time. If I wipe out the life on the Earth, even I can claim to have changed reality or the fabric of reality without effecting any space-time.

That's a very specific example that requires extensive context on your end to suggest, because generally no one is going to kill all life and then just claim they changed space-time. Gonna need you to find an example of this, because no offense, this is a bad argument. This can be used for anything. These two things don't go together in a context at all, and is random words you just pull. I can go ahead and say that someone shouldn't be planet level irregardless of the validity of statements because, "I can claim to destroy the entire planet, but not actually be able to do so". You set a specific case where obviously what you claimed wasn't true, but it was wordplay that purposely favors you. Not to mention the thing you used to compare I already disproved it's only in reference to just the planet. So overall, no idea why you argued this.

Even if he is affecting space-time in some form (which I can't see how he is affecting it in that video, visual proof is necessary here), if it's not on a universal scale, it is unquantifiable. And like I said, the context here suggests nothing about any universal scale.

I'm sorry, but who asks for space-time to be visually affected? Almost every single tier 2 or higher doesn't exactly show that, which I'm unsure how you're even meant to represent. Unless you can find a contradiction on what he claimed, you cannot claim he's wrong. That's like saying someone created an entire time-space continuum, and you proceed to say, "I need visual proof he created time", like that's not something you'd necessarily need if the statements are valid unless something else gives a different indication. You claim it isn't on a universal scale, but not only did I prove multiple times on why it's beyond the planet, but space-time due to Olly's statement. Fabric of reality is literally jsut another term for space-time, this is no different if he were to say he's folding space and time. You don't get to say that this word doesn't have its inherit meaning unless proven otherwise. If he's stated to affect the fabric of reality while previously displaying space has already been affected, then that's that as supporting evidence. I don't understand how space being affected, then claiming space-time is being reformed, isn't going to mean he's actually affecting space-time.

He can very well rid the world of paper-thin beings by affecting something (space-time, fabric of reality, whatever other way he has shown feats of) on a interplanetary range, and all of those statements would still hold true. I don't see any reason for assuming it is some universal feat.

Well the first issue was he wanted to reshape space-time, not only just re-fold everyone. It isn't an assumption if my statement backs up what the scale is. Fabric of reality, fabric meaning space-time woven as a fabric, and reality meaning... what makes up all of it. Again, no different from saying space-time.

I'd also like to mention how when he claims he's folding the very fabric of reality, he asks Olivia to look around, as if he's actually doing it and not just saying it for no reason, but actually having someone to see his power. And as you can see, there aren't any folded people that he's referring to when he states that, which goes against your original argument.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Hmm. Is there any other statement in reference to the scope?

 

[AKM sama]

I'd also like to mention how when he claims he's folding the very fabric of reality, he asks Olivia to look around, as if he's actually doing it and not just saying it for no reason, but actually having someone to see his power.

Question. What exactly is happening in the video? We can see that almost everything there falls down and purple folded papers rise up. Is that correct?

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out AKM.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

As I understand it the paper is reality and Olly's powers involve folding things like origami.

 

[AKM sama]

As I understand it the paper is reality and Olly's powers involve folding things like origami.

So he just wants to fold all paper-thin beings, as in Origamy. Then this seems like the use of big words to make it seem more impressive than it really is. Since we didn't see him folding the fabric of reality in a literal sense in that scene where he claimed to do so, and also not on a universal scale, the effect was only in his immediate area.

 

[liluzivert]

Since we didn't see him folding the fabric of reality in a literal sense in that scene where he claimed to do so, and also not on a universal scale, the effect was only in his immediate area.

False. The background gets warped and twisted when olly is bending reality. And it get's even more twisted in the final phase. This tells us you skimmed over the video.

Also just because we can't see the entire universe get folded doesn't mean that he only affected that one area. That's not a debunk. Olly has affected more than the planet so prove to us that he's only affecting that area. Yes the burden of proof is on you, we don't need to see the entire universe get bent to qualify, and if you think so then you are being dishonest as most of the tier 2 characters on the site don't show the entire universe being warped/destroyed.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Question. What exactly is happening in the video? We can see that almost everything there falls down and purple folded papers rise up. Is that correct?

As soon as transforms, everything collapses and the background starts to get distorted. It's still already been stated he's going to reshape the world to his will, so we already know what's going to happen.

So he just wants to fold all paper-thin beings, as in Origamy. Then this seems like the use of big words to make it seem more impressive than it really is. Since we didn't see him folding the fabric of reality in a literal sense in that scene where he claimed to do so, and also not on a universal scale, the effect was only in his immediate area.

AKM, you completely ignored my entire comment and only decided to reply to the last part. My comment already addresses this argument, which you never responded to. Also many characters within a 3-A or above tier almost never display on to see an "entire universe" get infected, only a shot of space at most. So again, bad argument, you still need to prove his word is wrong.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Yeah. The background IS reality being folded. Obviously they can't show the full scope.

 

[AKM sama]

False. The background gets warped and twisted when olly is bending reality. And it get's even more twisted in the final phase. This tells us you skimmed over the video.

Well, it's not my responsibility to watch a 32 minute video. It's yours to provide me the time stamp you want me to watch. I saw what was linked previously, and this wasn't. Anyway, from what all I have been provided with, this looks like reality warping to me.

AKM, you completely ignored my entire comment and only decided to reply to the last part.

I didn't. I asked that question based on your comment because I wanted to get some clarification.

Also just because we can't see the entire universe get folded doesn't mean that he only affected that one area. That's not a debunk. Olly has affected more than the planet so prove to us that he's only affecting that area.

That's not proof either. Even if he has reality warping, range matters. I don't see any strong reason to assume that his range is universal simply because he said he is going to rid the world of paper-thin beings. If Olly has affected more than a planet at a time, then that's his max range. We can't assume it is universal when he didn't say how he is going to do what he's going to do.

we don't need to see the entire universe get bent to qualify

We don't. But we also need solid information to conclude that he is going to warp the entire universe in one shot. If you have more information regarding that he can warp the entire universe in one shot, then please provide.

Also many characters within a 3-A or above tier almost never display on to see an "entire universe" get infected, only a shot of space at most.

Different characters have different feats in different verses with different contexts and different levels of legitimacy based on different level of information they provide and different amount of probabilities for any given conclusion. Whataboutisms is not necessary. At this moment, I am only concerned with evaluating this particular feat. If you have a problem with different feats, please make different threads.

 

[liluzivert]

Whataboutisms is not necessary.

How many times are you gonna abuse this word each time you refuse to believe a verse is universal? Call them for what they really are. Double Standards. No one is downgrading most of the site because "we didn't see them blow up the universe". And honestly, I've seen you pull this card so many times. Why don't you make your own thread at this point that changes the rules then, instead of pointing it out constantly and then not doing anything else to other verses for consistency's sake?

That's not proof either. Even if he has reality warping, range matters. I don't see any strong reason to assume that his range is universal simply because he said he is going to rid the world of paper-thin beings. If Olly has affected more than a planet at a time, then that's his max range. We can't assume it is universal when he didn't say how he is going to do what he's going to do.

First off, please read at least. That's very unfair to the regular users of this site.

No, he literally wants the entire world reshaped to his image, that's literally the plot of the game, not just the people, but everything.

Second off, If you affect more than the planet then chances are you are referring to universe. And that same term has been used to define a universe multiple times throughout the series (Mario 64, Super Paper Mario). World is not gonna refer to a few planets or a solar system ever unless a verse specifies so. Not to mention the usage of the term "reality" which would naturally refer to universal by default.

 

[AKM sama]

How many times are you gonna abuse this word

Well, until you stop bringing cases about different verses in unrelated threads.

No one is downgrading most of the site because "we didn't see them blow up the universe". And honestly, I've seen you pull this card so many times. Why don't you make your own thread at this point that changes the rules then, instead of pointing it out constantly and then not doing anything else to other verses for consistency's sake?

I never said people have to downgrade most of the site because "we didn't see them blow up the universe". If you know about an identical case of another verse, please bring that to me and I'll be sure to look at that, because these are the rules.

First off, please read at least. That's very unfair to the regular users of this site.

I did. Assuming that I didn't is unfair.

If you affect more than the planet then chances are you are referring to universe.

Not really. We don't work on mere chances, we need confirmation. Affecting more than a planet does not automatically mean affecting the universe. "World" does not just mean those two things.

And that same term has been used to define a universe multiple times throughout the series (Mario 64, Super Paper Mario). World is not gonna refer to a few planets or a solar system ever unless a verse specifies so. Not to mention the usage of the term "reality" which would naturally refer to universal by default.

World can of course refer to anything ranging from a single room to multiple universes depending on the context. The word is entirely dependent on the context. So if someone has shown planet level range, we'd need pretty good reason to assume that they are talking about the universe in this case. Reality does not mean universe either. I don't know why you have this warped sense of understanding that these terms automatically mean "universe" without good reason. Plus, he is reality warping in this case, so obviously he is folding/changing "reality" according to his will, which doesn't have to be on a universal scale to qualify the use of the word. Context matters.

Also I suggest you calm down and stop being passive aggressive for no reason. If you are claiming something, obviously you must realize that people are going to ask questions and they will not blindly agree with everything you have to say.

Anyway, to keep this brief, you can ignore everything else in this post and just focus on this part. As far as I have understood this, Olly says he will rid the world of paper-thin beings. He uses reality warping to achieve that in his immediate surrounding. For what you are claiming, you need to provide some kind of evidence that he can use this reality warping over the entire universe in one-shot. It doesn't have to strictly be a feat, but the context and other information can also help ascertain whether there is good enough reason to believe your claim. Because the way I see it, he doesn't need to warp the entire universe in one-shot to achieve his goal and nothing I have seen till now points me to believe it.

 

[liluzivert]

Well, until you stop bringing cases about different verses in unrelated threads.

We will not because they are double standards, which you haven't addressed.

I never said people have to downgrade most of the site because "we didn't see them blow up the universe". If you know about an identical case of another verse, please bring that to me and I'll be sure to look at that, because these are the rules.

Point to me where I implied you want people to downgrade the site. Because I never said that. I am saying that people aren't gonna downgrade a plethora of verses because they don't see the entire universe destroyed. Why? Because no one will ever agree to that. And it's most certainly not these "rules" you mention if it's all over the site, and has been agreed upon by multiple people including staff. Either make a CRT or just drop the point.

I did. Assuming that I didn't is unfair.

Reshaping the world in this context just means getting rid of paper-thin beings.

No, he literally wants the entire world reshaped to his image, that's literally the plot of the game, not just the people, but everything.

I don't see any strong reason to assume that his range is universal simply because he said he is going to rid the world of paper-thin beings

You have yet to address this point. No you are not reading, like at all...

Not really. We don't work on mere chances, we need confirmation. Affecting more than a planet does not automatically mean affecting the universe. "World" does not just mean those two things.

Prove that world can mean multiple planets/a solar system in Mario specifically. The term is consistent in Mario, and you said it yourself:

Different characters have different feats in different verses with different contexts and different levels of legitimacy based on different level of information they provide and different amount of probabilities for any given conclusion

World can of course refer to anything ranging from a single room to multiple universes depending on the context. The word is entirely dependent on the context. So if someone has shown planet level range, we'd need pretty good reason to assume that they are talking about the universe in this case.

We have had context for the term "world" in Mario for a long ass time. And it has never ever referred to anything between planet or universe. Painting worlds? Universes. Other worlds in Super Paper Mario? Universes. So, we will wait until you provide actual evidence.

Reality does not mean universe either. I don't know why you have this warped sense of understanding that these terms automatically mean "universe" without good reason. Plus, he is reality warping in this case, so obviously he is folding/changing reality according to his will. Context matters.

Sure. Maybe in a vacuum. But the term "fabric" means it does refer to universe. Fabric of something is the essential makeup of it. Reality specifically is a collection of all that is real.

Reality warping is bending reality, changing what is real and what's not.

Fabric of reality refers to the essential makeup of it. The essential makeup of what's real includes space and time.

We have context, you are just ignoring it.

Also I suggest you calm down and stop being passive aggressive for no reason. If you are claiming something, obviously you must realize that people are going to ask questions and they will not blindly agree with everything you have to say.

You can't expect someone to be nice after you just skim through half the points and provide a lack of evidence with everything you say.

Anyway, to keep this brief, you can ignore everything else in this post and just focus on this part. As far as I have understood this, Olly says he will rid the world of paper-thin beings. He uses reality warping to achieve that in his immediate surrounding. For what you are claiming, you need to provide some kind of evidence that he can use this reality warping over the entire universe in one-shot. It doesn't have to strictly be a feat, but the context and other information can also help ascertain whether there is good enough reason to believe your claim. Because the way I see it, he doesn't need to warp the entire universe in one-shot to achieve his goal and nothing I have seen till now points me to believe it.

Nope. Olly will bend the entire paper world to his whim. He uses Space-Time Manipulation by affecting the fabric of reality. The term "world" in Mario has consistently referred to universes in the past in games like Mario 64, Super Paper Mario, and Mario and Luigi: Dream Team. He's also affected more than the planet, so context tells us it's impossible for him to affect anything less than a universe if he's using the term "world". So in order to affect the entire paper world, he will have to bend it to his control. If he's not affecting the entire universe, he is not achieving his goal.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Anyway, to keep this brief, you can ignore everything else in this post and just focus on this part.

No, you either read and address everything or you don't debate it to begin with. I'm not going to just refute one argument and ignore the rest, which is what you are doing.

I cannot form a proper response if AKM does not respond to my whole comment, because then we're not on the same page. Either reply to all of comment #161, or there's no point in me replying to you. I gave you further context, and you chose not to acknowledge it. You're stuck on arguing one part despite there being parts connected to it. You're trying to solve a puzzle with missing pieces.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

I didn't. I asked that question based on your comment because I wanted to get some clarification.

Which you've yet to address even after I made it.

Different characters have different feats in different verses with different contexts and different levels of legitimacy based on different level of information they provide and different amount of probabilities for any given conclusion. Whataboutisms is not necessary. At this moment, I am only concerned with evaluating this particular feat. If you have a problem with different feats, please make different threads.

I don't think you understood me. My argument wasn't, "if this isn't allowed, this shouldn't be either". It was that many feats don't require a full-blown visual of a whole universe getting affected. How often in fiction have you visually seen a universe get destroyed without taking a statement into account? Or time? That's not exactly something anyone can just visually show without context.

To say again, read my previous comment, as I explained everything there.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

About "world" being consistently used for "universe"

Sunshine uses "another world" to refer to the secret level in Noki Bay. Afaik we don't consider those universes?

And in Galaxy "world" is used a few times in conjunction with "galaxy"

 

[DatOneWeeb]

I don't think that's relevant at all here.

 

[liluzivert]

Sunshine uses "another world" to refer to the secret level in Noki Bay. Afaik we don't consider those universes?

That's because they are assumed to be pocket dimensions and thus "world" refers to the entire thing. In Mario's normal universe, world will never refer to anything between planet to universe.

And in Galaxy "world" is used a few times in conjunction with "galaxy"

That's a world map screen, not relevant to canonical locals.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

That's because they are assumed to be pocket dimensions and thus "world" refers to the entire thing. In Mario's normal universe, world will never refer to anything between planet to universe.

To be fair they've been described as lesser, but they're at the very least consistent on what they mean in specific games.

But it doesn't matter, we need AKM to form a proper response before doing anything.

 

[Starsprite53]

I don't think the "world consistently means universe" is relevent cuz the term varies between games.
Tho a weaker boss is able to effect the sun so i don't see how the final boss (with his strongest form btw) will be less effective

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out AKM.

Also, he is just doing his job of acting as a quality control buffer before revisions are passed. All staff members are supposed to help in that manner.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

At the same time, it's difficult arguing with someone who not only hasn't made a proper response (meaning the quality control check isn't being properly done), but also didn't play the game so I need to point out basic things like the entire plot in the very start of the game.

 

[liluzivert]

To be fair they've been described as lesser

I don't think the "world consistently means universe" is relevent cuz the term varies between games.

That's not what I meant. I'm referring to just bodies of space that are already accepted as universal. Not stuff like world map screens and other usages of the word, just to make that clear.

 

[Antvasima]

At the same time, it's difficult arguing with someone who not only hasn't made a proper response (meaning the quality control check isn't being properly done), but also didn't play the game so I need to point out basic things like the entire plot in the very start of the game.

Staff members cannot be expected to have in-depth knowledge of everything that we evaluate. We are supposed to ask these types of questions in order to investigate.

 

[AKM sama]

You have yet to address this point. No you are not reading, like at all...

Reshaping the world in this context just means getting rid of paper-thin beings.

This is me addressing the point. Context is important. If I want to bend or reshape the entire world to my whim, doesn't mean I am necessarily gonna warp or destroy it. I can do that by being the strongest and powerful man and make everybody follow my orders, and bring about any change in the world I want. The context here, as you have provided, was that he was going to rid the world of all paper-thin beings, as he said. That very much qualifies as bending/reshaping the world to his whim.

I can see that you're taking the statement literally and shooting for the highest interpretation of the word "world", and by it you mean that Olly was going to fold, crease and bend the entire universe in one shot? Well, such a claim would obviously require some strong backing. Why are we taking it literally when the context points otherwise, and what supporting evidence do we have that backs up such a huge claim?

But the term "fabric" means it does refer to universe.

No it doesn't. Fabric of reality as a term cannot be quantified without context. And in this case, the moment when he performs his reality warping he says that he is folding the fabric of reality. Which means that here, "folding the fabric of reality" is just him using his reality warping in his immediate surrounding. Many comic characters have "broken the fabric of reality" over the years, but all they actually did was create a small hole in space-time, for example.

We have had context for the term "world" in Mario for a long ass time. And it has never ever referred to anything between planet or universe. Painting worlds? Universes. Other worlds in Super Paper Mario? Universes. So, we will wait until you provide actual evidence.

He's also affected more than the planet, so context tells us it's impossible for him to affect anything less than a universe if he's using the term "world". So in order to affect the entire paper world, he will have to bend it to his control. If he's not affecting the entire universe, he is not achieving his goal.

As others have pointed out above, world has also referred to other lesser things. It referring to universe at times does not mean it refers to universe every time or even in this case.
Also, why can't it be referring to planet? @Starsprite53 Olly or a weaker boss being able to affect a planet or more than it, does not mean that in this case he must be talking about the universe. A stronger boss can have a goal of a limited scale. If he doesn't want to warp the sun or another planet, he won't. He can only be concerned about his goal if it is about the planet. That doesn't mean he is weaker.

The bolded part is entirely wrong. Even if. say, he's able to affect the solar system, world in this case, can still refer to the planet. If I say I am going to destroy the world (by which I mean Earth) and my power clearly exceeds what is required to destroy a planet, and even if I end up destroying the solar system, I am by extension destroying the world too. My statement does not get contradicted simply because my power exceeds that of a planet.

Lastly, even if by any chance world here meant universe, I still don't see anything implying a one-shot scenario. He can obviously bend the entire universe to his whim by getting rid of all the paper-thin beings, without being able to warp the entire universe in one shot.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

While I can see where AKM Sama is coming from, I still do not quite grasp an agreement to what he's saying. First of all, while I do agree it's not his responsibility to watch an entire 32 minute video, the regular users are showing screenshots and explaining in detail. Though I will mention it's preferable to be using Japanese texts which Niarobi and LuckyEmile mentioned on Discord. But "Very fabric of Reality" is an English localized statements. The Japanese version does say fold the entire world and cause everyone and everything to become his origami.

Also, while I do agree that "World" has never been a good argument on its own as it can mean country, planet, universe, or even multiverse. And Mario is no different by how consistent it means. But there is a minion who is clearly example to fold the Sun as if it's his origami. And King Olly clearly has warped more than just the Earth. When I say, "I'm going to fold the entire world" it logically would either mean planet Earth specifically or the Entire Universe, no one would say "The Entire World" if it was just the Solar System or Milky Way Galaxy and stuff like that. But he clearly said entire world and it affected more than just the Earth; a certain other verse that's also a Nintendo verse was universally agreed to be Universal after a long ass discussion based on a combination of entire world, "Parallel World", "Alternate Dimension" and the fact that said "Parallel dimension" was clearly Earth to Sun distance and thus much greater than Earth. And process of elimination left Universal stuff being the only thing left.

At the very least, King Olly's feat is Universal+ via reality warping. You could argue it doesn't scale to physical stats which they have feats for those for other reasons obviously. But King Olly also does physically fold everything as if it's a sheet of paper. So at least in my eyes, his might is still a physical might that can still scale to his enemies' durability's. So I'm going to side with DatOneWeeb and Liluzivert here tbh.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems to make sense. Thank you for the evaluation.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

@Antvasima For the MP5 statement, it's seems that Lucky Emile has already confirmed how I always interpreted the feat. We have villains stating they are going to destroy a specific location all the time and we don't scale their AP to it instantly. Regardless of what Bowser meant, it doesn't matter as the main issue is "how" not "what". Is it with a magic spell? An artifact? A device? Physically? Or simply rampaging within these worlds? No other info is provided beyond that. The fact it has yet to happen did not help.

I'm not too sure about the King Olly feat to be honest as DDM and AKA sama both made some good points but if context is the main issue as AKA sama said, I don't think we should use the feat instantly as it will just lead to arguments in the future and this franchise already has a reputation on the wiki with trying to scale characters with (Let's be honest) really bad or incomprehensible feats at times such as the infamous Yoshi Mario Odyssey feat. Going by what DDM implied, we may need more information before ultimately deciding where the feat stands.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

For the MP5 statement, it's seems that Lucky Emile has already confirmed how I always interpreted the feat. We have villains stating they are going to destroy a specific location all the time and we don't scale their AP to it instantly. Regardless of what Bowser meant, it doesn't matter as the main issue is "how" not "what". Is it with a magic spell? An artifact? A device? Physically? Or simply rampaging within these worlds? No other info is provided beyond that. The fact it has yet to happen did not help.

She... she said she agrees with the feat being something Bowser scales to, and that it's Low 2-C.

All in all, with consistent references to Bowser planning to destroy the dream worlds, ultimately even Dream Depot itself, and was even stopping people from dreaming by doing so, I agree with this being a Low 2-C feat.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

Exactly. The main issue is how is he going to do it? Destruction or not, we need more context. He can't just mindlessly make him Low 2-C just because he said it, otherwise multiple villains would have been upgrade for similar reasons. As AKA sama stated, context is the issue.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Because it was stated not just by Bowser that he would've destroyed each dream world, but it was stated by Misstar as well, and I see no reason for her to be lying about it since she is meant to be a guardian.

 

[The_Smashor]

I think the idea is we don't know if Bowser would do it with his own power or with some kinda prep time machine or something else that isn't combat applicable.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Why would we have any sort of assumption Bowser is going to be using some type of prep? Generally there would be an entire subplot of Bowser having a mcguffin either with him or wanting one to preform something. Games like Mario Party DS or 8 for example shows he already has some sort of item with him. 5 does not. If there aren't any indications of Bowser even having an item to begin with, then we shouldn't be using that conclusion to begin with.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

@The_Smashor Exactly. We need more details on this. Whether people like to admit it or not, it is dramatic leap of what Bowser's normally capable of prior, so we need more information on how it will be done. Statements, regardless from whom, isn't enough in this case.

 

[The_Smashor]

Wait, but if Bowser could just do that instantly then why is there even a plot? Bowser would just do it and nobody would even attempt to stop him because by the time anyone knew he'd already have done it.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

Well then, it simply means he can't do with his own power, is merely causing havoc in the worlds, or needs prep, pretty much making the statement moot.

 

[The_Smashor]

I was speaking to DatOneWeeb, and you ninja'd me.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

That's a nitpicky argument that can be applied to quite literally any character in existence. Why can't anyone planet level or above pull a Frieza then and there to say **** the hero? I mean as soon as he gets there, he states he's about to destroy it, but then the playable character comes and stops them from doing so.

 

[liluzivert]

Honestly, this just goes back to people bending the rules of tier 2. In order for Bowser to destroy the dream then he'd have to have range. That's basically it. Bowser is already Universal+, he already has the output to do so. Saying he needs an artifact is just false, and also we can't assume he could have used one anyway, because that's not the simplest explanation to begin with. The simplest explanation is that he can destroy an entire universe. That's it. We do this with every other tier 2 character.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Like, as a whole in Mario games, normally whenever Bowser is gonna use some sort of prep to cause chaos, there's an entire plot for it.

Power Stars, Grand Stars, Star Rod, Dream Stone, Vacuum Block, Lucien, Royal Sticker, Minimizer, and I can go on and on. But you see that in general that when Bowser has something, we see him have something. But in this case, we don't see him bring anything.