Ad Distant Astra -Final Fantasy VII- New Tiering and Keys

[GiverOfThePeace]

This is just nitpicking by this point, again, statements clearly state the dimension was destroyed and we get a dimension shattering affect.
Also there's several times during the animation where we see the sun "slowly expand"


When it's not even near earth. Then after wards we see the entire destruction affect in the background, so what exactly is the argument here? Nothing even confirms it directly stops at earth "slowly expands" isn't a good argument at all cause it does that all the way back at Mercury and obviously the devs don't want to show you every single planet getting engulfed, yes they'll show overly excessive FF moves but not to that extent.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The move literally lasts two minutes. If they wanted to show a wider destruction, they could’ve. Showing the Galaxy going boom is much quicker than the planets and sun going one by one. And correct me if I’m wrong, but the statement comes from Dissidia, which is...complicated. Not the base game.

Also, one more thing. Ignoring statements to go what’s on the screen has been done for quite a number of franchises, from Marvel to Naruto. Don’t act like this would be a specific attack on FF7.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

The move literally lasts two minutes. If they wanted to show a wider destruction, they could’ve. Showing the Galaxy going boom is much quicker than the planets and sun going one by one. And correct me if I’m wrong, but the statement comes from Dissidia, which is...complicated. Not the base game.

Also, one more thing. Ignoring statements to go what’s on the screen has been done for quite a number of franchises, from Marvel to Naruto. Don’t act like this would be a specific attack on FF7.

It last 2 minutes because it shows the initial comet, showing wider destruction of every planet with the time they took for it to expand would take bare minimum 15 minutes, if you want to show me a FF animation that does that go ahead, but two minutes is nowhere near the same scale as what you want them to show. Showing the galaxy go boom from what the American team was doing wasn't as epic to them, so. No clue on how Dissidia's canoncity works here but the statement is reaffirming how the attack works.

Do those statements in question come after the feat in question? If so, show them. Not the name of the franchise but direct scans. I'm also pretty sure Marvel and Naruto use guidebooks which are secondary canons which is why they're ignored, this is a statement from a game. Hell cal you literally helped someone to make a thread that uses a guidebook statement over what we see in the game. So what is this sudden shift when it's FF7?

 

[TriforcePower1]

I may be missing something, but why are you guys debating about the international version of Supernova, when this is the original Japanese version?

 

[Dust_Collector]

Iirc Square treats both the original and international versions as equally canon.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

They do

 

[TartaChocholate]

The current stance on Dissidia, coming from the FF revision team itself is that abilties displayed by the characters are considered acceptable so long they don't openly contradict the canon of their original game (such as Kefka attaining his God of Magic form without the Warring Triad, or Jecht becoming the Final Aeon as a powerup). What is considered inapplicable in any way (as of now at least) is characters scaling from each other. In Sephiroth's case, it just describes additional properties for abilities Sephiroth already had (causing the Supernova and dimensional capabilities with drawing to the alternate dimension to begin with)

The Galaxy being consumed is shown in the Original Japanese one with the cut from the explosion, though.

@Warren_Valion : Well... you have a point in that regard. I think it's worth a discussion in itself at the very least. The jump to 3-A is quite a big step so I'd give it its own place (well, alongside a few other secondary stat upgrade proposals) for a proper analysis.

Spoiler: Off topic bits

I see what you mean with the scaling, but to not deviate too much, if AC Sephiroth wasn't stronger than Safer, then his difference with Cloud would be contradictory in itself. A stronger Cloud was completely outmatched by AC Sephy who was holding back, Safer soundly lost an 8 on 1 against weaker opponents while giving his all. Safer had no plot or character reason to hold back, yet if he was as strong as AC Sephy he could have beaten the party. But not gonna lie the scaling is pretty wonky, and I've had a truckload of trouble of making sense out of it since 2018.

I'd say The Turks becoming rougish anti heroes comic reliefs is also a compilation thing, in the vein of angst Cloud, saint Aerith and stalker Sephiroth.

 

[Warren_Valion]

@Warren_Valion : Well... you have a point in that regard. I think it's worth a discussion in itself at the very least. The jump to 3-A is quite a big step so I'd give it its own place (well, alongside a few other secondary stat upgrade proposals) for a proper analysis.

I see, I guess this could be for another thread then.

But before I go, I do have a question. Why do other party members like Tifa and Barret only get one key, shouldn't they have the same keys as Cloud for FFVII?

Spoiler: Unrelated Side Note

Also, side note, but I found this quote from Nomura about Sephiroth.

Might be hax? And from what I see, it isn't on the profile.

"His voice evokes fear even when speaking normally, and although he's not deliberately trying to be overbearing, he has this tremendous strength."

Tetsuya Nomura, The Reunion Files

 

[Agnaa]

Despite being familiar with FF7 I don't follow revisions since I think y'all have a good handle on it. Just wanted to pop in here to say I'm very happy with the implementation of multiple keys for Cloud, it's something I felt has been long overdue and you've handled it spectacularly.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Despite being familiar with FF7 I don't follow revisions since I think y'all have a good handle on it. Just wanted to pop in here to say I'm very happy with the implementation of multiple keys for Cloud, it's something I felt has been long overdue and you've handled it spectacularly.

Thanks dude, really makes it feel it was worth it.

@Warren_Valion : Once this thread is done (and if the result is favorable), I'll bring it up in other CRT among a couple of other things.

Barret, Tifa and the others are getting new keys as well. Vincent is getting a proper DoC key and Turk key and Red XIII a Before Crisis one. They will be implemented with this revision.

Spoiler: Sephy's finding in the Reunion Files

Seems like Fear Manipulation. It is already included in his AC Key, though it is justified with stuff from On the Way to a Smile. This is a good find, though, it can help as further justification for it.

 

[Armorchompy]

Despite being familiar with FF7 I don't follow revisions since I think y'all have a good handle on it. Just wanted to pop in here to say I'm very happy with the implementation of multiple keys for Cloud, it's something I felt has been long overdue and you've handled it spectacularly.

I very much agree, I'm very glad the verse got the love it deserved.

Anyway, if 3-A is applied I think it shouldn't be the only key for that tier, even if modeled after our universe we don't quite know if it's the same, so I don't see it deserving more than a "likely"

 

[Antvasima]

What is left to do here?

 

[Shift_Ctrl_Alt_Delete]

I very much agree, I'm very glad the verse got the love it deserved.

Anyway, if 3-A is applied I think it shouldn't be the only key for that tier, even if modeled after our universe we don't quite know if it's the same, so I don't see it deserving more than a "likely"

I think if 3-A gets applied (which I agree with), it should probably be Low 2-C since Final Fantasy (as far as I know) always treats a universe as a timeline, and it also treats destroying a universe as always destroys both space and time. Once again, that's only IF it gets accepted and applied.

 

[Armorchompy]

That is just yet one more line of reasoning that'd make the thing even more of a stretch

We should just compromise and make him At least 4-B, likely 4-A or 3-C, possibly 3-A or Low 2-C

 

[TartaChocholate]

That is just yet one more line of reasoning that'd make the thing even more of a stretch

We should just compromise and make him At least 4-B, likely 4-A or 3-C, possibly 3-A or Low 2-C

Totally 4-C, definitely 4-B, most likely 4-A quite possibly 3-C, understandably 3-B, perhaps 3-A, feasibly Low 2-C

 

[Warren_Valion]

Totally 4-C, definitely 4-B, most likely 4-A quite possibly 3-C, understandably 3-B, perhaps 3-A, feasibly Low 2-C

I agree

 

[TheGatememer]

Very well, I will go along with this

 

[Shift_Ctrl_Alt_Delete]

Totally 4-C, definitely 4-B, most likely 4-A quite possibly 3-C, understandably 3-B, perhaps 3-A, feasibly Low 2-C

Can't Think of Anymore for the Lower Tiers, Certainly 5-B, Absolutely 5-A, 100% High 5-A, Quinntessetially Low 4-C, Totally 4-C, Accurately (Not Really) High 4-C, Definitely 4-B, Most Likely 4-A, Quite Possibly 3-C, Understandably 3-B, Perhaps 3-A, Feasibly Low 2-C

 

[Eficiente]

This was well handled in some parts, and I do genuinely respect that, but in other parts it goes kinda silly, hence creating that dimension was ever let pass on the profile and more casual things are being talked about. Can we make this a staff thread and concentrate properly? I made this comment on the Supernova blog and would very much like to see what other staff have to say about it (obviously here, not in the blog), the blog already has a reply but I imagine other staff could figure what my response to it would look like, if not then they can point me out the same and I'll respond to it.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Okay, so, putting jokes aside, Eficiente did bring up an important point where I had a major screw up with this: the 4-A to 3-C key doesn't have a proper calc and it's simply using standard calcs as a patch of sorts. Granted I did request one some time ago, and while I didn't really get an answer, it does in hindsight (along with looking at other CRTs around) make it evident the implementation of that part of the revision was rushed and I didn't really wait for a proper closure with staff or properly round the revision before making changes, and that I also underestimated how big of change the upgrade was and how much discussion it would need.

I still stick to my guns regarding this CRT, but it's in many ways incomplete yet. We should try to look over all the possible issues that have been raised, including Cal's mentioned before, given that unlike the previous 4-B feat, this is a lot less clean cut and more interpretation is into play.

 

[Warren_Valion]

So you need someone to make a calc of the feat?

 

[Antvasima]

I do not think that this is controversial and important enough to make it a staff thread only.

 

[Armorchompy]

Considering how cleanly the 4-B destruction is shown and that "destroying dimensional space" is still a bit open to interpretation cause it could just mean destroying space within the dimension, I think we should still consider an "at least 4-B"

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm willing to shut up about this for now if needed though.

 

[TartaChocholate]

So you need someone to make a calc of the feat?

Yeah... looking back, I really should have insisted or asked a bit more to have that ready before making that part of the CRT.

And while the end using the International Supernova is more or less clear: the destruction of a dimension large enough to house the Milky Way, that's what's being argued, regardless of the stance on how valid it is. However, not so much can be said for the lower end using the Original Japanese: I did give the standard Starry Sky dimension as conservative end, but what are we considering to be destroyed exactly isn't something I made completely clear. Is it just the portion of the Galaxy where the light is shining? The whole Galaxy that disappears? An even larger size because of how the blast seems to engulf everything in the animation? I personally think we should go for the portion of the Galaxy, it is something that I could have discussed a bit more before bringing up. Not to mention it does bring another issue in itself.

@Armorchompy : It's not really necessary, 4-B has a properly done calc that was accepted time ago. I think it would still be simply 4-B but with Spatial Destruction added or something like that.

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm a bit confused as to what you're saying. I'm arguing for him to have an "at least 4-B, likely/possibly whatever the calc is or 3-A if we settle on that"

 

[TartaChocholate]

I'm a bit confused as to what you're saying. I'm arguing for him to have an "at least 4-B, likely/possibly whatever the calc is or 3-A if we settle on that"

Ah, my bad. Thought you meant what could be done if the new key was rejected.

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask here for calculations:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/calculations-requests-thread-new-forum.107525

 

[Cyberblader90]

was this ever concluded

 

[Shmooply]

That's quite a necro you've got there, champ.
also you can literally just check the profiles to see if it was applied

 

[Eficiente]

They got very distracted on those 4-A & 3-C stats, so distracted in fact they didn't notice how it was wrong and what criticism it had.

 

[Starbrand_Fan]

That's quite a necro you've got there, champ.
also you can literally just check the profiles to see if it was applied

Well it was only applied to Cloud and Tifa’s profiles, the others still need to be updated.

 

[Antvasima]

They got very distracted on those 4-A & 3-C stats, so distracted in fact they didn't notice how it was wrong and what criticism it had.

Please elaborate.

Also, can somebody summarise the above discussion and what needs to be done here please?

 

[Cyberblader90]

Just finish updating other characters

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I know this thread was necro'd but I remember this thread still looking at the previous posts; 4-A at bare minimum appears to be blatant. It is alright stated to be an alternate dimension; which quantum spaces like that has the starry sky background being actual stars is the standard assumption in the context of lore based dimensions. And the scan literally in our faces confirms that it completely destroys said dimension. Not to mention we do see a dimensional shattering effect in game; so the statement the visual does not contradict the showing.

 

[Antvasima]

Most of us likely still need a reminder summary.

 

[Armorchompy]

I did keep my disagreement by the way, the shattering effect is just that, a cute little effect, unless you're saying almost all summon create and destroy pocket dimensions every time they attack.

 

[Eficiente]

It is alright stated to be an alternate dimension; which quantum spaces like that has the starry sky background being actual stars is the standard assumption in the context of lore based dimensions.

The size of the dimension isn't an issue, if anything it should be above just starry sky as there is clearly a galaxy there and stars around it. Idk what we even say to dismiss that but it doesn't matter to what I'm saying.

And the scan literally in our faces confirms that it completely destroys said dimension.

Here's where the issues start; no, it doesn't.

• The description Supernova has in Dissidia Final Fantasy (2008)/Dissidia 012 Final Fantasy (2011) only applies to that version of the attack, where the dimension only has that sun blowing up w/o stars. It makes no sense to grab what it does there and say that it applies to all versions of the attack.
• It's also vague, it doesn't say that it completely destroys the dimension but just space in it, we don't know how much space there is destroyed, let alone if all of it is destroyed.
• Dissidia is not even canon, it's just a fighting game where everyone's fighting everyone from across different universes for no reason with their stories never making reference to it if they continue. The only argument I have ever seen for them being canon is that they're official FF games, which is literally irrelevant, if Castlevania gets a fighting game like it then that sure is an official Castlevania game, but that doesn't mean anything in terms of what's canon or not.
• + it severely contradicts other descriptions of the move with far, far more weight of reliability to them, those pointing out the sun blowing up, the planets and Solar system getting destroyed as the big bad destruction going on. In he Jap. version of FFVII the dimension is still there after the attack, in the American version the attack ends little after the supernova reaches Earth, and it makes no sense for a supernova triggered from a sun blowing up to destroy all that dimension.

Not to mention we do see a dimensional shattering effect in game; so the statement the visual does not contradict the showing.

All summons have that as all send into another dimension, it's just how the Dimensional Travel happens. And yes, it does contradicts things as that's the first thing we see whereas the destruction is the last. All the FF7 cast takes is the sun blowing up.

 

[Armorchompy]

I was also thinking, is there any reason Supernova would scale to Sephiroth's normal attacks? It reliably almost kills all party members despite them being hit by an incredibly tiny section of the explosion.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

"Dissidia isn't canon"

yeah it is lol

Anyway this has already been accepted and applied, and the supposed arguments against it have been debunked. This should be closed