Ad Distant Astra -Final Fantasy VII- New Tiering and Keys

[Starbrand_Fan]

Actually they’re still some profiles that need to be updated.

 

[Eficiente]

I was also thinking, is there any reason Supernova would scale to Sephiroth's normal attacks? It reliably almost kills all party members despite them being hit by an incredibly tiny section of the explosion.

The party should have their durability based on surviving that tiny bit and Sephy based on harming them, the Supernova it's its own thing. We may as well calc the speed of the meteor going from outside the galaxy into the sun and add that in Sephy's speed, but likewise it doesn't scale to himself, just like the full supernova shouldn't.

So many years of dumb "Supernova is an illusion" arguments made us too clumsy on this.

"Dissidia isn't canon"

yeah it is lol

Anyway this has already been accepted and applied, and the supposed arguments against it have been debunked. This should be closed

This just seems like a whim, if you were not going to give a reason then you could have only said the "This should be closed" part, it gets the point across of what you want just as well.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

"A whim"

Gilgamesh literally references it in XIII-2 and uses Chaos' claw as a weapon. Y'shtola comments on having seen Kefka before but not knowing where, when you get the doll, and she wasn't part of the kefka raid in XIV. Hell we literally accept Dissidia as canon on the site, we just don't scale stats to it for things that aren't FF1

 

[Eficiente]

Yes, that last comment has reasons over 1 topic I said, the other didn't have reasons over all the things I said and so what I said still applies. No reason to hang that quote in the air there, just because you now give reasons for this 1 thing it doesn't mean the previous attitude wasn't unnecessary, closing the thread would just slow down progress.

You could however move those reasons into a blog and add links to them for people to know. Just saying "this has already been accepted and applied" and "we literally accept Dissidia as canon on the site" does as much as saying "there are reasons". Idk the context of what you're saying but I just so happen to know that Gilgamesh breaks the fourth wall to say things like it because I read his profiles, so idk how trustworthy that is, and even then everything else I said still applies.

 

[HST_Master]

You could however move those reasons into a blog and add links to them for people to know. Just saying "this has already been accepted and applied" and "we literally accept Dissidia as canon on the site" does as much as saying "there are reasons". Idk the context of what you're saying but I just so happen to know that Gilgamesh breaks the fourth wall to say things like it because I read his profiles, so idk how trustworthy that is, and even then everything else I said still applies.

Gilgamesh verbatim says "I even took part in the battle between Harmony and Discord" when he appears in Mobius and the description of Zantetsuken in the Ultimania for XIII-2 even directly states that Gilgamesh got it from World B where Dissidia takes place. There's no reason to take these statements as just him breaking the 4th wall when even Y'shtola admits Kefka looks familiar despite never seeing him before.

The party should have their durability based on surviving that tiny bit and Sephy based on harming them, the Supernova it's its own thing. We may as well calc the speed of the meteor going from outside the galaxy into the sun and add that in Sephy's speed, but likewise it doesn't scale to himself, just like the full supernova shouldn't.

Them being near the epicenter doesn't mean they'd only scale to what was enveloped by the resulting blast before it hit them, they'd still scale to the full blast, Sephiroth himself takes the blast as well.

The only thing that needs to be done is to apply the changes to the other profiles.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm pretty sure "Destroying the space" would imply destroying the pocket dimension. Also, what Eficiente said about Dissidia is completely false, Dissidia is very much canon to the Final Fantasy multiverse and we had long running discussions about that. Final Fantasy XIII-2 pretty much confirmed Dissidia is canon to that game and it pretty much confirms the entire backstory of the original Final Fantasy. The ending of Dissidia is just the beginning of the 1st Final Fantasy starting. And there's also statements from the Crystal Chronicles games connecting Dissidia to Final Fantasy iirc. Even statements confirming that most spinoffs actually are canon to the Final Fantasy multiverse.

Anyway, I might as well share the info to the FF Discord conference; some people there can explain it better than I can.

 

[Eficiente]

I'm pretty sure "Destroying the space" would imply destroying the pocket dimension.

Replying to that in a vacuum with all the other things I said ignored; no, it doesn't imply it, destroy space is just destroy space (and there's no "the" behind it). There's no reason to apply it in a radical, all-encompassing way when it's writen in a generalized way. If just saying that implies to destroy the whole structure where it takes place then how do you use words to not do so, by actively informing that you're not talking about the whole structure? By that logic the Tiering itself should inform that.

On that note, if I was wrong about Dissidia being canon then my fault goes as far as to me not having been part of the many times the topic was covered, which I nor anyone has no reason to have been part of. You guys can make another thread to add the evidence, context and reasons for it on a blog, talking about it here would be different than the other things the thread goes for.

 

[Antvasima]

Dissidia seems to be a canon crossover, but it is still a crossover, with characters of usually wildly different power levels who fight with each other on even grounds.

Anyway, can somebody summarise what the other issues of content are, and what we currently need to do here please?

 

[Eficiente]

• The description Supernova has in Dissidia Final Fantasy (2008)/Dissidia 012 Final Fantasy (2011) only applies to that version of the attack, where the dimension only has that sun blowing up w/o stars. It makes no sense to grab what it does there and say that it applies to all versions of the attack.
• It severely contradicts other descriptions of the move with far, far more weight of reliability to them, those pointing out the sun blowing up, the planets and Solar system getting destroyed as the big bad destruction going on. In he Jap. version of FFVII the dimension is still there after the attack, in the American version the attack ends little after the supernova reaches Earth, and it makes no sense for a supernova triggered from a sun blowing up to destroy all that dimension.
• It's also vague, it doesn't say that it completely destroys the dimension but just "space" in it, we don't know how much space there is destroyed, let alone if all of it is destroyed.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Dissidia isnt just a canon crossover. All the games are interconnected via the void.

We had a thread for dissidia that passed:
https://vsbattles.com/threads/dissidia-final-fantasy-revisions-and-stuff.111980/

Second, dissidia descriptions for moves and summons are mean to represent them across the franchise, not just in dissidia. We use dissidia descriptions for summons, like leviathan for example.

The thread has gone in massive detail already on why the statement isnt vague.

 

[Armorchompy]

"Dimensional space" isn't a thing tho. It means literally nothing unless you want to interpret it as a Tier 2 feat, and good luck with that. Otherwise it just means "space".

 

[Cyberblader90]

the dimensional space in context is the space supernova occurs in. This is literally what every summon does. They bfr you to a different space where they perform their move. This has been a thing since crisis core. We know sephiroth has at least 1 galaxy in his space.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It was universally agreed that the dimensions used for their summons in FFVII were actually created by the casters when I discussed it the TartaChocolate and Everlasting on Discord a while back. And furthermore, it was agreed that they use the same universal power system; aka Limit Breaks to do the feats; which is also something that amplifies physical powers as much as any magical abilities. So it meets the Criteria on creation feats DontTalkDT laid out. Also, the foreground shattering is meant to be a literal interpretation that the characters literally shattering their own pocket dimensions; which is a back up that it scales to striking strength and durability of the caster.

 

[Armorchompy]

You do realize that Supernova anti-feats itself with the fact that the extremely small percentage of it that hits the party is Sephiroth's strongest attack in JP FFVII?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yet he still tanks the epic center thus fully scales from it, and all party members can harm him to the point where they defeat him and Cloud later defeats him single-handedly despite Sephiroth growing much stronger than ever before.

Also, the Supernova getting slow by the time it reaches Earth is merely a visual effect; in real time, it just nukes the entire solar system like almost instantly. And it was calculated at several MegaFoe from the JP version of VII alone.

 

[Armorchompy]

Explosions in FFVII clearly don't harm the caster somehow, since half the cast has giant explosions in their moveset and it'd be stupid to assume the whole verse fights by blowing themselves up

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yes, because their durability surpasses their own attacks and game mechanics are just inconsistent and make no sense when it comes to damage ratings; they're meant to balance the gameplay not to be 100% literal in every fight scene. It isn't a "Blow themselves up" more like it's just their body releases a giant wave of energy that attacks omnidirectionally. And only reason they use pocket dimensions to fight is because their true power is too great to be used on Earth.

Besides, Sephiroths sword strikes are almost as strong as his Supernova with Cloud and the others tanking them regularly, and they strike back with the same levels of power.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yes, because their durability surpasses their own attacks and game mechanics are just inconsistent and make no sense when it comes to damage ratings; they're meant to balance the gameplay not to be 100% literal in every fight scene.

I never mentioned damage ratings. However, right now you're proposing Sephiroth's durability > Supernova, which causes inconsistencies of its own.

It isn't a "Blow themselves up" more like it's just their body releases a giant wave of energy that attacks omnidirectionally.

So, the explosion doesn't hurt them, as I said.

And only reason they use pocket dimensions to fight is because their true power is too great to be used on Earth.

Yes, clearly Sephiroth would HATE to damage the Planet in any way. Truly, he'd despise that.

Besides, Sephiroths sword strikes are almost as strong as his Supernova with Cloud and the others tanking them regularly, and they strike back with the same levels of power.

??? Sephiroth doesn't even have his sword in the final battle of FFVII, and I don't recall the Masamune ever failing to pierce anyone in Advent Children. You also just said damage ratings are inconsistent and tied to game mechanics.

 

[Armorchompy]

Also, the Supernova getting slow by the time it reaches Earth is merely a visual effect; in real time, it just nukes the entire solar system like almost instantly. And it was calculated at several MegaFoe from the JP version of VII alone.

(By the way, I was talking about surface area and whatnot here, not speed. Not sure what that calculation has to do with my discussing the 4-A ratings)

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Dissidia seems to be a canon crossover, but it is still a crossover, with characters of usually wildly different power levels who fight with each other on even grounds.

The stats of characters are very specifically being amped by the gods during the events of dissidia. Their actual abilities remain unchanged, but their AP and Speed are altered to be on equal footing with eachother.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Considering it's one of the most consistent things in the series, I really see nothing contradictory about the durability; or Sephiroth not wanting to destroy the planet that it's in character that likes to intimidate his foes before he does anything all out.

It doesn't hurt him because he's not a glass cannon like I said, surface area or not, Sephiroth's own body is the epic center and takes 0 damage. And even other cast members; taking surface area would still make the feat well into Tier 4, 500 lightseconds radius is still a spec compared to how big the explosion actually is. But regardless, laid out other details.

HIs physical strikes still, he still trades blows with all party members. And in Advent Children, lore makes him much stronger than ever before, by Cloud is still able to trade blows and win against him with some help.

 

[Armorchompy]

Wait, since their stats are being amped, what shows us that the destruction of "dimensional space" isn't something Sephy can do only because of his stats being amped?

 

[Armorchompy]

Considering it's one of the most consistent things in the series, I really see nothing contradictory about the durability; or Sephiroth not wanting to destroy the planet that it's in character that likes to intimidate his foes before he does anything all out.

The entirety of his motivation is damaging the Planet. He goes out of his way to get the Black Materia to damage the Planet. The entirety of the game's story hinges on Sephiroth wanting to destroy the planet- he's overdramatic but he's not an idiot.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Wait, since their stats are being amped, what shows us that the destruction of "dimensional space" isn't something Sephy can do only because of his stats being amped?

Wouldnt apply to the supernova description. Its a general move description like the summons description, not for the amped sephiroth

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Wait, since their stats are being amped, what shows us that the destruction of "dimensional space" isn't something Sephy can do only because of his stats being amped?

No. All of their abilities function the same, the only difference is that they're using the gods' power as a secondary power source.

 

[Armorchompy]

Both of those claims would need some sort of proof IMO, shouldn't be a default assumption.

 

[Cyberblader90]

proof is simple. The descriptions for the move are them ones you do in gameplay. Its directly from character files, similar to this for typhon:


These descriptions are for characters across the franchise/their original game. Not what they do in dissidia story mode. Sephiroth doesnt even use supernova in story mode. Its just a lore description to what the move does in general

 

[Eficiente]

I don't find DarkDragonMedeus making sense while I easily see what Armorchompy says as common sense, not to be rude. For example in legit any other verse 1 character not getting harmed by its own move like that isn't due to much higher durability than the people that can harm it and get harmed by that move anyway and that roll, we instantly and instinctively say it's not affected by its own move. Here it's logical to imagine there's bias.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

I literally don't even know what you're trying to say outside of "lol bias", can you reword that

 

[Cyberblader90]

Limit breaks are done using spiritual energy which powers everything else in the verse
including materia and physical feats

By virtue, sephiroth would scale to supernova directly.

 

[Antvasima]

So what is left to do here exactly?

 

[Cyberblader90]

we have already addressed what was originally known.

Dissidia descriptions for moves are canon. Sephiroth per the description destroys the space, which is at least the galaxy he is currently rated with.

The mechanics of the verse means the move scale to his physicals. Other characters scale to him.

Fairly simple

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

So what is left to do here exactly?

We just need to apply the changes to the few characters that are missing them.

 

[SamanPatou]

I have 0 knowledge on FF but I want to raise a question:

Is it confirmed that the characters within Dissidia are the same of the original games? If it got it right Final Fantasy is a multiverse (I don't know if in the parallel-worlds fashion or just each game is a universe).
Because it could be possible that those summoned by these gods are some versions of the main characters, but not necessarily the main ones we use for the profiles.

Take this as a genuine question, I'm not trying to prove or confute anything.

But from what I read I see that the argument is ending in circular scaling, if I got it correctly: The Heroes are much weaker than the Supernova, which Sephiroth tanks without a scratch, who gets hurt by the heroes, who then become stronger than the supernova that almost killed them.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the replies.

 

[Cyberblader90]

I have 0 knowledge on FF but I want to raise a question:

Is it confirmed that the characters within Dissidia are the same of the original games? If it got it right Final Fantasy is a multiverse (I don't know if in the parallel-worlds fashion or just each game is a universe).
Because it could be possible that those summoned by these gods are some versions of the main characters, but not necessarily the main ones we use for the profiles.

Take this as a genuine question, I'm not trying to prove or confute anything.

But from what I read I see that the argument is ending in circular scaling, if I got it correctly: The Heroes are much weaker than the Supernova, which Sephiroth tanks without a scratch, who gets hurt by the heroes, who then become stronger than the supernova that almost killed them.

They are the same characters summoned throughout the cosmology, as all the separate universes are linked by the greater Void.

This is made clear with character descriptions and summons saying what games they are from.

As for the circular reasoning:

The Heroes are much weaker than the Supernova

Why is this part assumed?

 

[SamanPatou]

Doesn't it almost kills the party, leaving them with extremely low healt? In that case we can't assume they are totally comparable or even superior to it (even though they would probably fall in a similar tier, I think).

I also remember that there are some differences in how the attack works between the Japanese and western version of the game, but I don't know them.

 

[Cyberblader90]

it does do massive damage yes. But it doesnt one shot. In the international release it cant kill the party

 

[Antvasima]

They should be similarly powerful at least. Almost, but not quite most likely.

 

[SamanPatou]

We still have a scaling problem, because we can't assume that Sephi is 100% unfazed by the supernova, but then he takes significant damage from the same characters that were almost killed by or just have received massive damage from the same attack that did nothing to him.

Unless the heroes are the Glass Cannon, being able to use much more force than that they can withstand.

It gets worse if we assume all of Sephiroth's attacks are comparable to the Supernova, as the Heroes take much less damage from them.

I don't know how that would turn out with surface area, backscaling or what, but there is still a problem, with the main point being Sephi's dura and AP scaling totally from or even higher than the Supernova.