Ad Distant Astra -Final Fantasy VII- New Tiering and Keys

[Shift_Ctrl_Alt_Delete]

Shouldn't the characters at the beginning of FF7 scale to Zach since Cloud basically became Zach (not exactly, but I think it gets the point across)?

I think there's potential for Zirconaide, Minerva, the Weapons, and Jenova, and everyone who scales to Sephiroth to scale to 3-B thanks to Knights of the Round and Supernova. Obviously, KOTR is a 3-B feat, that's pretty blatant with the several galaxies spinning in the background, but I think there's potential for Supernova to also be 3-B. There's obviously the galaxy shown when Sephiroth summons the asteroid/comet thing, but there are also several star-like things shown as well. However, the only things those "stars" could be in "inter-galactic space" (I don't know if that's the proper term) are galaxies since even at that distance, the nearest galaxies are still distant "blurs." Dissidia's description of sending destruction into other dimensions could help prove that point. (I don't know if I explained this well, and if this is considered a stretch, well, I can say I tried).

Isn't there a mention of Sephiroth using Supernova in Crisis Core? If that's the case, couldn't the top-tier CC characters scale to that? (I don't necessarily think this will cause circular scaling since it's clear that the top-tiers in FF7 are stronger than the ones in CC).

Could Sephiroth have a non-combat applicable (until REMAKE Sephiroth is proven to be post-Advent Children Sephiroth time-traveling to REMAKE the timeline since he actually summons and uses it during the final boss fight of FF7R) higher with Meteor since Meteor is the only thing that could harm the Planet enough to cause a wound large enough for Sephiroth to absorb the Lifestream (it's non-combat applicable because of how long it will take Meteor to impact the Planet)?

I heard something (it might've been from Death Battle) about Sephiroth gaining access to the powers of every Materia after falling into the Lifestream after Cloud impaled him during CC.[ISPOILER] Is that correct? If so, should that be added to Smash Fighter #78's page? (Unless I'm stupid and he already has this).

 

[Armorchompy]

Cloud took Zach's personality and his weapon, but not his power. This isn't some weird anime entity absorption thing, Cloud was just so ****** up he unconsciously modeled himself after the personality of the coolest guy he knew, he didn't become Zack, he just became his mental image of Zack, I'm pretty sure Aerith notes he did an awful job at it too in some side material.

Those "blurs" and "star-like things" are way too ambiguous for us to consider the feat 3-B. If we're unsure about something, we go with the lower ratings.

Does the CC Supernova have the same animation? Even if it did I do agree it'd be circular scaling.

I can agree with Meteor's higher. tfw 3-C planet durability

I'm not sure what they got that from, but I'm not a FFVII expert or anything. If it's legit, yeah sure.

 

[Shift_Ctrl_Alt_Delete]

Cloud took Zach's personality and his weapon, but not his power. This isn't some weird anime entity absorption thing, Cloud was just so ****** up he unconsciously modeled himself after the personality of the coolest guy he knew, he didn't become Zack, he just became his mental image of Zack, I'm pretty sure Aerith notes he did an awful job at it too in some side material.

Those "blurs" and "star-like things" are way too ambiguous for us to consider the feat 3-B. If we're unsure about something, we go with the lower ratings.

Does the CC Supernova have the same animation? Even if it did I do agree it'd be circular scaling.

I can agree with Meteor's higher. tfw 3-C planet durability

I'm not sure what they got that from, but I'm not a FFVII expert or anything. If it's legit, yeah sure.

Yeah, that makes more sense (Cloud's just high on Jenova cells).

Fair enough, I knew it was a little shaky.

I think it's just mentioned that he has it.

Cool. (Planet too strong).

Neat. I'm not an expert either, just wondering if that is in fact real.

Also, shouldn't Sephiroth technically have Immortality Type 7 in FF7 and Advent Children due to being dead?

 

[Armorchompy]

He is dead but it doesn't really give him any boons in itself, if it wasn't for being able to come back from the Lifestream you could kill him like normal (that is to say, you couldn't)

 

[Shift_Ctrl_Alt_Delete]

He is dead but it doesn't really give him any boons in itself, if it wasn't for being able to come back from the Lifestream you could kill him like normal (that is to say, you couldn't)

I'm pretty sure I've seen Type 7 given to beings who can be killed normally even though they're undead, but I could be wrong.

 

[TartaChocholate]

@Shift_Ctrl_Alt_Delete

Well, not quite. What happened is that the Jenova Cells in Cloud's body absorbed some of Zack's memories (mostly those pertaining to his SOLDIER career) to shape a new identity after his mind was destroyed by the Mako Poisoning. He didn't literally become Zack as much as he unknowingly was impersonating him. Two aspects are also very different: Cloud wasn't living as Zack, but rather as his own ideal of how a SOLDIER 1st class would be, hence why as opposed to Zack being such a sweet and friendly guy, Cloud was a cocky, dismissive jerk initially, he was trying to "act cool". Second, Cloud at the beginning of the game was much, much weaker than Zack and the party only goes toe to toe with SOLDIER 3rd Class members, who are Elite Mooks of sorts in the Shinra Building.

While I agree that Knights of the Round do have a 3-B feat, I really have issues not considering it an outlier. As I mentioned above, Sephiroth is meant to be the most powerful character in the setting and the Supernova his strongest move. The Knights of the Round having a better feat would be contradicting that established idea, especially since there is no "direct measuring" such as characters directly fighting them like it happened in ''Crisis Core'' where characters openly defeat Summons. The bit in Dissidia saying it sends destruction into other dimensions is a translation thing, in the original japanese it says it destroys the dimensional space. I do however, think that the Sephy's Supernova is well above baseline 3-C due how large the pocket realm is, but I can't really say much regarding calcs myself.

The Supernova is mentioned in an easter-egg of sorts. If you try to enter Sephiroth's fanclub as part of a sidequest, you have to answer a couple of questions, one of them being "What's the name of Sephiroth's Utimate Attack?". But yeah, that's kinda the issue, I did consider it at first, but given it's essentially a bit of fun trivia in the game that plays on Sephiroth's infamous move, it really doesn't seem to be enough. It would have been different if it had been mentioned by other SOLDIER members in the story or in a proper mission, then you at least could argue Sephy didn't use it because he was holding back or something.

Higher with Meteor? That's... actually that's pretty accurate. As you say, it should be specified that it can't be used in combat due to the prep time needed and the time it takes, but by all intents and porpuses Meteor is far above Sephy's regular AP.

I used to believe so as well, and it was in his profile for a while even before I worked on it, however when I went through the entire compilation I never could find any proof that Sephiroth had the power of every Materia, no statements in-game, side materials or anything, so I decided to remove it in the previous CRT. He did mention he absorbed greats amount of knowledge from the Lifestream in the original game and that he became superior to the Cetra, but didn't go beyond that. That could have been what was misinterpreted as absorbing the power of every Materia, but in practice it seems to be what granted him the power to use many kinds of top level Magic without Materia (one of the very few creatures capable of doing so), his unique abilities and made him stronger.

Spoiler: REMAKE Spoilers

REMAKE Sephiroth is giving me a headache since I have no idea how to integrate him in the profile. I also fully believe he's the same AC Sephy, once again not dead, once again stronger ready for trolling us forever. >_>; And I firmly think we're heading to tier 2 territory with timelines shaeningans and the primordial void that is the Edge of Creation.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Cloud took Zach's personality and his weapon, but not his power. This isn't some weird anime entity absorption thing, Cloud was just so ****** up he unconsciously modeled himself after the personality of the coolest guy he knew, he didn't become Zack, he just became his mental image of Zack, I'm pretty sure Aerith notes he did an awful job at it too in some side material.

Those "blurs" and "star-like things" are way too ambiguous for us to consider the feat 3-B. If we're unsure about something, we go with the lower ratings.

Does the CC Supernova have the same animation? Even if it did I do agree it'd be circular scaling.

I can agree with Meteor's higher. tfw 3-C planet durability

I'm not sure what they got that from, but I'm not a FFVII expert or anything. If it's legit, yeah sure.

Pretty much. Thanks for summarizing a lot better than I do. =P IIRC Aerith never knew Cloud and Zack were friends, or more tragically, that Zack even died in a mission, she simply felt something was wrong when he died. She saw Cloud for who he was, an insecure dork trying too hard to act cool, and it was glorious.

There is a frame where two galaxies can be seen. But I already mentioned the other issues with it as well, so we're on the same page still.

Well, Sephiroth does actually revive himself in the original game with the Reunion and comes back to the living world by anchoring his Spirit to the living world with the Jenova Cells, but they kinda elaborate he's more than a simple spirit in On the Way to Smile (in his words "I can become complete again"), reason why I thought he isn't quite an undead

 

[Shift_Ctrl_Alt_Delete]

@Shift_Ctrl_Alt_Delete

Well, not quite. What happened is that the Jenova Cells in Cloud's body absorbed some of Zack's memories (mostly those pertaining to his SOLDIER career) to shape a new identity after his mind was destroyed by the Mako Poisoning. He didn't literally become Zack as much as he unknowingly was impersonating him. Two aspects are also very different: Cloud wasn't living as Zack, but rather as his own ideal of how a SOLDIER 1st class would be, hence why as opposed to Zack being such a sweet and friendly guy, Cloud was a cocky, dismissive jerk initially, he was trying to "act cool". Second, Cloud at the beginning of the game was much, much weaker than Zack and the party only goes toe to toe with SOLDIER 3rd Class members, who are Elite Mooks of sorts in the Shinra Building.

While I agree that Knights of the Round do have a 3-B feat, I really have issues not considering it an outlier. As I mentioned above, Sephiroth is meant to be the most powerful character in the setting and the Supernova his strongest move. The Knights of the Round having a better feat would be contradicting that established idea, especially since there is no "direct measuring" such as characters directly fighting them like it happened in ''Crisis Core'' where characters openly defeat Summons. The bit in Dissidia saying it sends destruction into other dimensions is a translation thing, in the original japanese it says it destroys the dimensional space. I do however, think that the Sephy's Supernova is well above baseline 3-C due how large the pocket realm is, but I can't really say much regarding calcs myself.

The Supernova is mentioned in an easter-egg of sorts. If you try to enter Sephiroth's fanclub as part of a sidequest, you have to answer a couple of questions, one of them being "What's the name of Sephiroth's Utimate Attack?". But yeah, that's kinda the issue, I did consider it at first, but given it's essentially a bit of fun trivia in the game that plays on Sephiroth's infamous move, it really doesn't seem to be enough. It would have been different if it had been mentioned by other SOLDIER members in the story or in a proper mission, then you at least could argue Sephy didn't use it because he was holding back or something.

Higher with Meteor? That's... actually that's pretty accurate. As you say, it should be specified that it can't be used in combat due to the prep time needed and the time it takes, but by all intents and porpuses Meteor is far above Sephy's regular AP.

I used to believe so as well, and it was in his profile for a while even before I worked on it, however when I went through the entire compilation I never could find any proof that Sephiroth had the power of every Materia, no statements in-game, side materials or anything, so I decided to remove it in the previous CRT. He did mention he absorbed greats amount of knowledge from the Lifestream in the original game and that he became superior to the Cetra, but didn't go beyond that. That could have been what was misinterpreted as absorbing the power of every Materia, but in practice it seems to be what granted him the power to use many kinds of top level Magic without Materia (one of the very few creatures capable of doing so), his unique abilities and made him stronger.

Spoiler: REMAKE Spoilers

REMAKE Sephiroth is giving me a headache since I have no idea how to integrate him in the profile. I also fully believe he's the same AC Sephy, once again not dead, once again stronger ready for trolling us forever. >_>; And I firmly think we're heading to tier 2 territory with timelines shaeningans and the primordial void that is the Edge of Creation.

I knew that Cloud didn't literally become Zach, I was wondering if Cloud became as powerful as Zach (I just worded it really weirdly). However, seeing as that is no the case, I'm fine with the beginning of FF7 being 9-A. (Then there's the REMAKE cast over there being High 6-A (for beating Ifrit and Shiva) to 5-A (for beating Leviathan and Bahamut), hell maybe even 4-A, possibly 3-C if it's proven that the Pride and Joy Prototype is the earlier version of the Proud Clod and scales to it, right away. Feels bad, man).

Well, I tried. (TFW the first thing Smash Sephiroth does is become a Low 2-C, possibly even a 2-B/2-A, yet all OG Sephy can do is 3-C, pathetic. All the devs needed to do was state that summons create and destroy their own universes whenever they attack and everything would be fine).

Cool.

Aw, that's unfortunate, I was hoping for Mr. I-use-one-whole-bottle-of-shampoo-every-time-I-wash-my-hair to become a hax monster (well, more than he already is).

I believe it too, there's too much evidence pointing in that direction. However, until that gets confirmed, he's just another version of Sephiroth (well, one of 5-6 versions running around in that game).

I think possibly Immortality Type 7 could work. If that's accepted, I think it would also apply to Jenova and maybe to Lozenge, Cage, and Kazoo (Loz, Kadaj, and Yazoo). Maybe Aerith should get it too, for... obvious reasons.

By the way, I kind of disagree with removing Instinctive Reactions. I'm fairly sure there are several characters that have it for similar reasons as the FF7 cast. However, if it goes, I'm not too bothered by it.

By the way, how do you do the dropdown spoiler thing?

 

[TartaChocholate]

Alright, Sephiroth has been updated. Took me a bit to gather all the backup info, sorry for the delay. Wanted to start with Cloud but figured that given Sephy was the cornerstone for the whole scaling, he should get the honor of sorts. Working on the rest now.

EDIT: At the right side of the tool bar in the messages there are three dots (between the Insert Table at the left and Undo option at the right), click on them and there should be an Spoiler option. That one is

 

[Shift_Ctrl_Alt_Delete]

Alright, Sephiroth has been updated. Took me a bit to gather all the backup info, sorry for the delay. Wanted to start with Cloud but figured that given Sephy was the cornerstone for the whole scaling, he should get the honor of sorts. Working on the rest now.

EDIT: At the right side of the tool bar in the messages there are three dots (between the Insert Table at the left and Undo option at the right), click on them and there should be an Spoiler option. That one is

Nice! (Time to throw Sephy at the Kirby, Castlevania, Zelda, Mario, etc. casts)!

Was there any conclusion about speed scaling to Supernova's meteor thing? I think it's fine, but I want to know if that's what the profiles are going to scale to. (Once again, I agree with it).

 

[TartaChocholate]

So far I've only made this CRT that addressed AP, the other stats such as Speed, Lifting Strength and such haven't been proposed yet. Same with abilities revisions.

 

[Shift_Ctrl_Alt_Delete]

So far I've only made this CRT that addressed AP, the other stats such as Speed, Lifting Strength and such haven't been proposed yet. Same with abilities revisions.

Oh yeah. I just noticed the op was just AP.

 

[Shift_Ctrl_Alt_Delete]

(Can we have Smash key just so we can have Low 2-C Sephiroth)?

 

[TheGatememer]

The "created" a realm part on Sephiroth's profile should be removed.

 

[Shift_Ctrl_Alt_Delete]

The "created" a realm part on Sephiroth's profile should be removed.

I'm pretty sure that refers to Supernova.

 

[TartaChocholate]

The "created" a realm part on Sephiroth's profile should be removed.

The "it creates and destroys an alternate realm..." part? Got it, it's fixed to focus on the destruction of the realm.

 

[Shift_Ctrl_Alt_Delete]

I assume once all of the changes are made, this will be closed and a new CRT for the rest of the changes will be made, correct?

 

[TartaChocholate]

Pretty much. The idea, is to have the next CRT be either about the abilities or the remaining stats, then one for Crisis Core and Before Crisis (taking advantage of most of the basis being already done)

 

[Shift_Ctrl_Alt_Delete]

Fun stuff.

(Hopefully, the next ones won't take 2 months to be completed).

Actually, why was 4-A rejected for Crisis Core and middle of FF7 characters? And why are they being scaled Ifrit and Typhon?

 

[TartaChocholate]

Yeah, apologies. My original intention was to get everything ready and just update everything at once (hence why I kept delaying the AP, Durability and Striking Strength Upgrade that has been ready since October), but got very little time to work on it due to IRL stuff.

Essentially, I have no real proof that Summons create or sustain their alternate spaces, the only mention in the lore is this one, which only says they transport the enemy to them. Due to that, Bahamut Fury's starry realm and such can't really translate to AP as there is nothing proving they made the realm or anything of the sort.

However, scaling to Ifrit and Typhon is possible for a few reasons, Zack fought and defeated Ifrit, Bahamut and Bahamut Fury. Bahamut ZERO in the original game, based on how the game gives the Summons and to an extent the power it has in-game, is stronger than Typhon and Bahamut Fury could be considered a stronger variant by having a stronger Megaflare variant (and a 5-A supporting feat of its own).

The original game cast scales due to the recurring piece of lore in the Final Fantasy franchise that if you're not as strong as the Summon, this won't obey you and can even turn on you. This actually can be seen the numerous times you have to beat Summons to earn them in the games and in one instance, Yuffie actually stole the Bahamut Fury Materia from Zack but returned it after she couldn't control it.

Additionally, the party can additionally scale by virtue of fighting Jenova's stronger fragments (specifically DEATH) being on par with her form during the time of the Cetra, which caused the Planet to create the eight Weapons, while Zirconiade, which is treated as an Ultimate Summon of sorts (Knights if the Rounds aside) caused the deployment of a single one after its death.

 

[Armorchompy]

This is incredibly minor, but shouldn't Hojo be 9-C since "Standard Equipment: Large handgun for self-defense"? Range should be updated too, and his Keys aren't bold

 

[Shift_Ctrl_Alt_Delete]

Yeah, apologies. My original intention was to get everything ready and just update everything at once (hence why I kept delaying the AP, Durability and Striking Strength Upgrade that has been ready since October), but got very little time to work on it due to IRL stuff.

Essentially, I have no real proof that Summons create or sustain their alternate spaces, the only mention in the lore is this one, which only says they transport the enemy to them. Due to that, Bahamut Fury's starry realm and such can't really translate to AP as there is nothing proving they made the realm or anything of the sort.

However, scaling to Ifrit and Typhon is possible for a few reasons, Zack fought and defeated Ifrit, Bahamut and Bahamut Fury. Bahamut ZERO in the original game, based on how the game gives the Summons and to an extent the power it has in-game, is stronger than Typhon and Bahamut Fury could be considered a stronger variant by having a stronger Megaflare variant (and a 5-A supporting feat of its own).

The original game cast scales due to the recurring piece of lore in the Final Fantasy franchise that if you're not as strong as the Summon, this won't obey you and can even turn on you. This actually can be seen the numerous times you have to beat Summons to earn them in the games and in one instance, Yuffie actually stole the Bahamut Fury Materia from Zack but returned it after she couldn't control it.

Additionally, the party can additionally scale by virtue of fighting Jenova's stronger fragments (specifically DEATH) being on par with her form during the time of the Cetra, which caused the Planet to create the eight Weapons, while Zirconiade, which is treated as an Ultimate Summon of sorts (Knights if the Rounds aside) caused the deployment of a single one after its death.

Makes sense.

 

[Antvasima]

What is left to do here?

 

[Armorchompy]

Well, not everything has been applied yet, so that, I suppose.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Indeed, everything has been accepted. Though, if it's no issue, I'd like to leave the thread open a bit longer until all the AP revisions are applied (which will take a week at most), given many things I missed and details to be corrected were pointed out by other users in the meantime. Like the 8-C to 9-A correction.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

I got a little ploblem with the galaxy level thing,was the supernova not said to be a real event? If so, Sephiroth didn't created a Galaxy and Just be multi solar system level? (Also there should be more explanation to the 4-A placement than Just supernova)

 

[Armorchompy]

The supernova is a real event, but we believe it also destroyed the pocket reality around it. I'm not sure what indicates that, though.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

The new explanation for the 4-A thing should be this before saying about the supernova on the Key:

(Stronger than Bahamut Fury,who created a realm with multiple stars)

 

[Shift_Ctrl_Alt_Delete]

Additionally, the party can additionally scale by virtue of fighting Jenova's stronger fragments (specifically DEATH) being on par with her form during the time of the Cetra, which caused the Planet to create the eight Weapons, while Zirconiade, which is treated as an Ultimate Summon of sorts (Knights if the Rounds aside) caused the deployment of a single one after its death.

So that means that Jenova DEATH and the Weapons (besides Chaos and Omega) scale to 4-A?


Actually, should Aerith get some sort of higher rating on her profile for summoning Holy and the Lifestream? (I don't think it'd be combat applicable, at least Holy wouldn't).

 

[Antvasima]

Indeed, everything has been accepted. Though, if it's no issue, I'd like to leave the thread open a bit longer until all the AP revisions are applied (which will take a week at most), given many things I missed and details to be corrected were pointed out by other users in the meantime. Like the 8-C to 9-A correction.

That is fine of course.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I disagree. It’s said that they’re transporting you to the pocket dimension, not that they’re creating them. Where they come from, I don’t know, but it’s disingenuous to give them higher than 4-B ratings for this imo.

 

[Armorchompy]

I disagree. It’s said that they’re transporting you to the pocket dimension, not that they’re creating them. Where they come from, I don’t know, but it’s disingenuous to give them higher than 4-B ratings for this imo.

We're not giving most of the summons 4-A/3-C for this, only Seph and KOTR, who apparently destroy the dimensions they're in. As to what the proof behind them destroying it is... I'm not sure, personally I'm neutral towards that at best.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Seph doesn’t destroy his dimension tho. We see where the damage stops. I went through KotR and they don’t destroy theirs either, despite it being one of the most badass 90 seconds I’ve seen in a video game.

 

[Armorchompy]

I can agree with that, I'm not sure what the reasoning behind that is.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We visually see a dimensional shattering at the ending of Sephiroth's supernova.

 

[Armorchompy]

I only see a weird bright light in the middle of a galaxy, quite a leap to guess the whole thing's destroyed

 

[Antvasima]

Well, these new objections obviously complicate things.

Which staff members accepted this previously?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The OP scans also outright state the Supernova actually does destroy the dimension.

 

[TartaChocholate]

The Knights of the Round do destroy their dimension as stated in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania. In Sephiroth's case, Dissidia states it causes the destruction of the dimension it takes place in and its animation can be seen to cause to shatter the place where it's used. Hence my reasoning.

 

[Armorchompy]

Hm, I'm not sure about Supernova. Bringing destruction into other dimensions doesn't mean destroying the whole dimension, and the shattering is clearly a reference to the summon animation in FFVII, where the screen cracks (which indicates the summons teleporting you to their dimension). As for KOTR, "The space cracks" and "The space is broken up" don't quite sound like they're saying the whole dimension is destroyed. I'd be fine with them as a support statement, but otherwise, eeeeh