Ad Distant Astra -Final Fantasy VII- New Tiering and Keys

[TartaChocholate]

Hm, I'm not sure about Supernova. Bringing destruction into other dimensions doesn't mean destroying the whole dimension, and the shattering is clearly a reference to the summon animation in FFVII, where the screen cracks (which indicates the summons teleporting you to their dimension). As for KOTR, "The space cracks" and "The space is broken up" don't quite sound like they're saying the whole dimension is destroyed. I'd be fine with them as a support statement, but otherwise, eeeeh

That's the english version (being more pretentious than FF already is), the Japanese scan where is more literal and simply says that it "destroys dimensional space". In the case of the Knights of the Round, King Arthur cleaves the opponent, the Ultimania says that the shockwave caused by the attack with the Excalibur causes the space to crack, break and the dimension disappear. I don't really think it's that much of a stretch.

 

[Armorchompy]

I suppose that might be true.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

We visually see a dimensional shattering at the ending of Sephiroth's supernova.

We see a dimensional shattering at the beginning too tho.

 

[TartaChocholate]

We see a dimensional shattering at the beginning too tho.

Yeah, but that could simply be Sephiroth transporting the party to the dimension of the Supernova rather than creation or destruction. The Dissidia Supernova clearly shows the dimension breaking appart where the orange ball passes.

 

[Antvasima]

If somebody investigates which staff members that accepted this revision previously, I can send notifications to them.

 

[TartaChocholate]

It was only Matt actually, Medeus was mostly neutral (at least you seem more on favour now, but don't want to put words in your mouth, DDM) and there wasn't much participation in general until the last week. Other users agreed but they were regular users.

 

[Shift_Ctrl_Alt_Delete]

Well, Knights of the Round's animation explicitly shows King Arthur slash his sword and the entire dimension shatters (not to mention it's stated to be destroyed), and Supernova is stated to destroy the entire dimension which contains at least one galaxy. Minerva in Crisis Core also creates her own starry sky dimension. (I know there was disagreement with Summons creating their dimensions, but I'm not sure what the consensus with Minerva is. She'd scale to 4-A regardless; at least, I'm pretty sure she would).

 

[TartaChocholate]

Sadly, Minerva is stuck in the same limbo as Bahamut Fury and ZERO, we find ourselves in a starry area, but we have no real proof the place was created or destroyed, all we have is evidence Zack was transported there, due to the information given in the Crisis Core Complete Guide.

 

[Shift_Ctrl_Alt_Delete]

Sadly, Minerva is stuck in the same limbo as Bahamut Fury and ZERO, we find ourselves in a starry area, but we have no real proof the place was created or destroyed, all we have is evidence Zack was transported there, due to the information given in the Crisis Core Complete Guide.

That's really unfortunate. (Come on REMAKE, give us that information)!

At least Supernova and Knights of the Round haven't forsaken us. (I still want to push for possibly 3-B, but that's probably not going to happen).

Whenever Aerith's profile gets updated, should she get a higher with Holy and the Lifestream as a spirit in the same vein as Sephiroth with Meteor? It wouldn't be combat applicable, at least for Holy.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew_Schroeder @DarkDragonMedeus @CrimsonStarFallen @SinsofMan @HST_Master @Sera_EX @Dante_Demon_Killah @Aridwolverine @GiverOfThePeace @Mariogoods

What do you think should be done here?

 

[TyranoDoom30]

also when is the upgrade to the other FFVII characters coming?

 

[Warren_Valion]

You know, if we used the international version of Supernova for scaling (And with how famous and prominent that version of Supernova is, even being the one referenced in other Final Fantasy games when the attack happens, as shown with the mathematical calculations, it's totally the legit version), I would argue the feat is 3-A.

Sad.

Maybe Remake can give us something if they are going to go balls to the wall with that.

 

[TartaChocholate]

also when is the upgrade to the other FFVII characters coming?

This weekend I plan to update at least the main party and Jenova, apologies, the summaries are done, but the delays are coming from gathering the backup links and such. Cloud might be done today or tomorrow (he has the most keys, longest explanations, and will make easier to update the rest since it will be a lot of copy paste)

@Warren_Valion : I am using both original Japanese and International Versions though, the 4-A comes from the Japanese one as you can see a starry sky at the very least with the Galaxy being mentioned in passing, and the International gives the 3-C since you straight up see the comet fly through space towards the Milky Way. As you say, the International Version pretty much became the definitive version of the Supernova, but I gave a place to the original one as well as side materials still acknowledge it even if it's completely overshadowed nowadays.

 

[Warren_Valion]

@Warren_Valion : I am using both original Japanese and International Versions though, the 4-A comes from the Japanese one as you can see a starry sky at the very least with the Galaxy being mentioned in passing, and the International gives the 3-C since you straight up see the comet fly through space towards the Milky Way. As you say, the International Version pretty much became the definitive version of the Supernova, but I gave a place to the original one as well as side materials still acknowledge it even if it's completely overshadowed nowadays.

Oh really

Then I could probably argue that the feat could be 3-A then since the dimension that either Sephiroth created or brought everyone to is clearly our universe, if the Milky Way and the specific planets in our Solar System being destroyed one by one wasn't enough proof of that, lmao.

The fact that we see countless stars outside of the Milky Way galaxy shows it is much bigger than just 3-C, and with all the visual evidence, it would seem fair to assume that the alternate dimension is our universe in every aspect, including size.

But I am not going to argue anything of the sort, as I don't really care that much.

Just want to say, nice job on the CRT - it is very well done.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I do have one question though.

What states that Advent Children Sephiroth is > than previous iterations of the character?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

@Matthew_Schroeder @DarkDragonMedeus @CrimsonStarFallen @SinsofMan @HST_Master @Sera_EX @Dante_Demon_Killah @Aridwolverine @GiverOfThePeace @Mariogoods

What do you think should be done here?

I'm surprised I got tagged

I agree with the proposal of the OP.

 

[Migue79]

I would argue the feat is 3-A.

THIS. ON SO MANY LEVELS.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There appears to be some Low 2-C feats in the remake, but this is for the original cast from the time being.

 

[Warren_Valion]

There appears to be some Low 2-C feats in the remake, but this is for the original cast from the time being.

I'm interested, DM me the deets on my wall.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Btw I agree with this being 3-A if we're going the 3-A route, you can see stuff outside of the galaxy too, though if we're going for the 4-A/3-C low end I'm fine with that too.

 

[Armorchompy]

I don't agree with 3-A, we can't assume all pocket dimensions are 3-A because they're similar to our universe. After all, plenty are modeled after our IRL world. That said, I still think the destruction statements are too vague for straight-up 4-A/3-C, i'd prefer a "likely"

 

[Antvasima]

So have you reached some sort of consensus here?

 

[Armorchompy]

Kind of? I think I'm the only one opposing 3-C/4-A but 3-A isn't agreed upon or against

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, 3-C/4-A is probably fine then.

 

[Shift_Ctrl_Alt_Delete]

Oh really

Then I could probably argue that the feat could be 3-A then since the dimension that either Sephiroth created or brought everyone to is clearly our universe, if the Milky Way and the specific planets in our Solar System being destroyed one by one wasn't enough proof of that, lmao.

The fact that we see countless stars outside of the Milky Way galaxy shows it is much bigger than just 3-C, and with all the visual evidence, it would seem fair to assume that the alternate dimension is our universe in every aspect, including size.

But I am not going to argue anything of the sort, as I don't really care that much.

Just want to say, nice job on the CRT - it is very well done.

(I tried, but gave up).

(2-A Smash key when)?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Imma be honest, I’m still against Supernova destroying the dimension. It makes no sense for the explosion to stop at earth if so, or for even nuking the planets and sun in the first place if he was just gonna collapse the dimension.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, the details are literally in our faces...

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Imma be honest, I’m still against Supernova destroying the dimension. It makes no sense for the explosion to stop at earth if so, or for even nuking the planets and sun in the first place if he was just gonna collapse the dimension.

Directly stated is destroys a dimension and we see a dimension shattering affect, the explosion stopping at earth is an animation limitation at best which is not at all what the devs agree with as shown with the later explanations of supernova.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Actions speak louder than words, guys.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

And what if we have both happening at the same time? I'd still take official statements over using our imaginations.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

And what if we have both happening at the same time? I'd still take official statements over using our imaginations.

^

 

[TartaChocholate]

Okay, so: Cloud has been updated, sorry for the delays. His lower keys can still be used and even if the CRT is rejected the format can still be applied to make the previous explanations a bit more complete.

@Warren_Valion : As... much as I'd like 3-A FFVII, I too have my issues in that regard. While it's true that the pocket realm is pretty much based on our universe, we can't really tell how big it is, we don't really have evidence it's actually the full universe rather than a fragment of it. I do agree that it should be much bigger than baseline since the space seen in the animation is a lot larger than just the Milky Way. I did ask if it was possible to calc something like that, but it was mostly dismissed.

Spoiler: Reasoning on Sephiroth

Regarding AC Sephiroth being stronger, well there aren't outright statements of it, but little bits of evidence that can be pieced together. Staff commentary on AC has Kitase mention they decided Sephiroth will always be the strongest character in FFVII, Sephiroth says to Cloud in their fight "Where did you find this strength?" (in Japanese is a more straightforward "When did you become so strong?"), Cloud can easily beat Kadaj who can thrash the Turks who could at least hold their own against the endgame party in VII to an extend, and the other Remnants can easily beat Tifa. Now, it's widely assumed that the main cast got weaker between the original game and AC, but... there's no real evidence of that. Tifa does give a speech about strength when Cloud fights Kadaj near the end of the movie (which is taken as proof of it), but that can easily be taken as her talking about motivation and drive to fight for something (which ties with Cloud's arc of getting over his funk) as Cloud with Geostigma, a crippling depression and lack of any determination could fight the three Remnants at once anyways. For comparison, the Turks remained active the two years on duty and were working with all they had to rebuild Midgar and the Shinra Company, yet they still were no match for the Remnants when they had no reason to grow weaker.

Now, while Sephiroth is known to hold back and extreme arrogance, that had its reasons in-story beyond character flaws: in Crisis Core and Before Crisis Sephiroth was actually pretty no-nonsense when it came to fulfilling his missions and ending his enemies, when he went insane in Nibelheim his ego exploded like his Supernova and the newfound god complex made him look down on everyone and hold back; in Advent Children he held back against Cloud because of said god Complex, but also because as explained in On the Way to a Smile, he had to discard parts of his personality to survive the Lifestream after his death at the Planet's Core, focusing on hating Cloud, reason why he ended obsessed with him and making him suffer. What is my point with this? Well, Safer Sephiroth had no reason to hold back, he wasn't obsessed with Cloud back then and his plans were on the line, so Sephy gave his all in that battle, yet he was defeated and the party was no worse for wear. Yet, this same party is no match for three guys who are essentially extensions of Sephiroth and Cloud who can beat them (easily when at full strength) is completely destroyed in a straight fight against Sephiroth himself.

Also, the Reunion files also mention they tried to make Sephy sound and look as something that had ascended and othwerwordly, but that was an artistic thing and it gave us many pear memes.

Also regarding Tier 2 FFVII Remake:

Spoiler: Heavy FFVII Remake spoilers

The ending has now at least three different timelines and a primordial dimension of the universe. So we have at least a 2-C setting. The main party was manipulated by Sephiroth into killing the manifestations of fate itself to escape predestined events to make this happen. How much they will scale to it, well we still have to see. But it's heavily implied it's AC Sephiroth, as in short of outright confirmed, that went back in time or is manipulating his past selves.

@The_real_cal_howard : If you ask me, it's not so much we see the explosion end as the animation cutting away. This is especially the case with the Original Japanese where it cuts from engulfing several planets to a faraway shot of the blast in the middle of a galaxy. The International has the very slowly approaching explosion towards the end but seems to build the dread of the approaching doom rather than the mass destruction. The ultimanias do give a statement of "A supernova explosion occurs and a tremendous shockwave consumes everything" or "[...] spreads beyond Sephiroth".

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Medeus makes sense here. My apologies Cal.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I mean, the alternate reality that the cast is taken into is very clearly our own.

So to assume that this reality possesses the exact same galaxy and solar system as ours and clearly shows far more space than just the Milky Way, but, for some reason, stops at an unknown size and isn't equivalent in size with the rest of our universe is a belief that requires more assumptions and takes more leaps in logic than just assuming that it is the exact same size as our own universe from the visual evidence implying as such, IMO.

The most basic assumption is usually the correct one, and if an alternate universe shows a different universe that is our space, and then shows more space beyond that, then it is likely that the entire dimension is our dimension through and through.

I think at the very least a "possibly 3-A" wouldn't be that ridiculous, to be honest.

But again, whatever - I don't care that much.


As for the AC scaling, eh. I am a little iffy on that. I am very much certain that Tifa's speech about how, "We were all so strong back then, and now only Cloud is that strong" (I'm paraphrasing, not quoting) and then Seph saying, "When did you get this strong?" is proof enough that AC Cloud is > FF7 Cloud, and that the quotes were about physical strength and not motivation.

But scaling the three remnants to be above Safer Seph is kinda iffy to me, personally. Especially scaling via the Turks, which frankly always felt like jokes to me when I played FF7. So again, eh.


Also, to what Cal said, where does it show Supernova stopping at Earth? We just see the sun expand, start destroying everything, approaching Earth, and then consume Sephiroth and the party before everything blows the **** up. Outside resources say that everything was destroyed, and there is nothing that I see that debunks that, so the logic is sound.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Warren, the explosion slows down to a snail’s pace once it reaches earth, compared to how quickly it blows up Mercury and Venus. Unless the sun expanded to the rest of the universe at 1 m/s, it stopped at earth. Not to mention a supernova consuming the universe in and of itself making no sense.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That could just be "Slow motion cameras to look cool" similar to how bullets move slow in Matrix.

 

[Armorchompy]

I dunno, your characters and Sephiroth's animations aren't slowed down.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

You say a supernova destroying the universe is ridiculous as if a meteor going foward billions of times faster than light and smashing into the sun, causing it to expand makes any more sense.

The explosion is said to destroy the dimension and affect others, and it's more than once said to destroy everything. Saying otherwise is going against official statements and frankly headcanon.

Also, for tier 2 FF7 Remake things, the Whispers are said to be connected to all threads of space-time of Gaia, and the party killing them seemingly altered the timeline itself. Nothing concrete yet but it sure is spicy.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Warren, the explosion slows down to a snail’s pace once it reaches earth, compared to how quickly it blows up Mercury and Venus. Unless the sun expanded to the rest of the universe at 1 m/s, it stopped at earth. Not to mention a supernova consuming the universe in and of itself making no sense.

The move "slows down" because it focuses on the part where it's raw destructive force is about to consume our main characters in a dramatic way, because that's what's important, not the expansion of the blast - but the blast hitting the cast. That's why after it touches the party, the entire move just blows up, and according to sources, destroys the dimension they were residing in.

There is no proof that the attacks' destruction stops at Earth, and the numerous statements saying otherwise are definitive proof of the opposite, so I really don't get this argument.


And what? It doesn't make sense, so it can't actually happen? Are you actually using that argument?

Aren't you a Mario fan? Didn't Mario Galaxy have a Black Hole that eats the whole universe? According to NASA, Forbes, and Life Science, black holes that would be large and strong enough to consume the universe are impossible, so I guess it can't happen. Better downgrade Mario while you're at it, by that logic.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The black hole eating the universe happens on-screen, Warren. The galactic nuke doesn’t.
To be clear I don’t mind remake feats.