Acausality type 1 for MCU Dormammu

[Rez]

Although we do have an tweet from an writer but the most this is gonna support is the well the unknown amount of time statement

 

[Eficiente]

and we don't even know if they still roll with this idea in this context.

No wait the second link confirms they didn't like to go with Dorm being on the loop for that long before noticing he was trapped forever, which makes sense as it kinda makes him look dumb.

“We had a line,” recounts Derrickson, “where Strange said, ‘we've been through this a thousand times. Literally. I fancied the idea that they went through it thousands of times before Dormammu finally realised he wasn't going to get out of it.”

Ok so an unknown amount of time is better I suppose

I would go through all that pain and more thousands and thousands of times to save the universe for what's I far as I know everyone and I getting the around as much pain forever, that doesn't mean I have that power. The pain getting reset kinda helps a lot, and it even seems like they act as the loop was before if they don't will themselves to act otherwise. The power's just wrong.

 

[Rez]

“We had a line,” recounts Derrickson, “where Strange said, ‘we've been through this a thousand times. Literally. I fancied the idea that they went through it thousands of times before Dormammu finally realised he wasn't going to get out of it.”

I would go through all that pain and more thousands and thousands of times to save the universe for what's I far as I know everyone and I getting the around as much pain forever, that doesn't mean I have that power. The pain getting reset kinda helps a lot, and it even seems like they act as the loop was before if they don't will themselves to act otherwise. The power's just wrong.

It's not wrong Strange still remembers what's happening even if he has to will himself to remember it going through deaths multiple times will still require a huge amount of willpower and strange's deaths aren't same each time so they are definitely acting differently

 

[Rez]

Which one?

The one from Robert

 

[Eficiente]

You don't know if subconscious trauma is kept after a reset, if not then Starnge remembering the deaths doesn't do much. Worst that can happen is that he at one point stops thinking Kars style, the loop keeps going forever and Dorm is trapped, w/o any super willpower needed.

 

[Rez]

Worst that can happen is that he at one point stops thinking Kars style, the loop keeps going forever and Dorm is trapped, w/o any super willpower needed.

Yeah except this clearly never happened
And strange says this in the movie
Dormammu:but you will suffer
Strange: pain's an old friend
At 2:21

 

[Rez]

I suggest you watch the clip a few seconds before what I wrote above for more context

 

[Eficiente]

Yeah except this clearly never happened

Idk why you think it matters to point this out.

And strange says this in the movie
Dormammu:but you will suffer
Strange: pain's an old friend
At 2:21

Doesn't matter.

 

[Rez]

Doesn't matter.

Why the scene clearly explains strange is actually not forgetting the pain from his previous deaths and suffering

 

[Dalesean027]

Doesn't matter

You're literally choosing to ignore direct evidence

 

[Greenshifter]

I also have a small nitpick with this, couldn't it be that Strange made the time loop so that Dormammu would remember the loop as well, considering he can make himself remember with the stone? I say this because by your interpretation Strange's plan wouldn't have worked unless he knew that Dormammu had acausality type 1, which idk how he would know that's the case, maybe it's logical since Dormammu didn't seem to know what time was and Strange is obviously very intelligent (especially in magics), but still seems like a potential unnecessary risk on Strange's part perhaps?

Supernatural willpower is probably fine.

 

[azontr]

I also have a small nitpick with this, couldn't it be that Strange made the time loop so that Dormammu would remember the loop as well, considering he can make himself remember with the stone? I say this because by your interpretation Strange's plan wouldn't have worked unless he knew that Dormammu had acausality type 1, which idk how he would know that's the case, maybe it's logical since Dormammu didn't seem to know what time was and Strange is obviously very intelligent (especially in magics), but still seems like a potential unnecessary risk on Strange's part perhaps?

Can strange even do that?

 

[Rez]

I also have a small nitpick with this, couldn't it be that Strange made the time loop so that Dormammu would remember the loop as well, considering he can make himself remember with the stone? I say this because by your interpretation Strange's plan wouldn't have worked unless he knew that Dormammu had acausality type 1, which idk how he would know that's the case, maybe it's logical since Dormammu didn't seem to know what time was and Strange is obviously very intelligent (especially in magics), but still seems like a potential unnecessary risk on Strange's part perhaps?

Supernatural willpower is probably fine.

Dark dimension is explained as a world with no time Strange probably knew because of that anyway that was already brought up and we have a scan from guidebook saying Dormammu was trapped in the loop

 

[Greenshifter]

The stones control essential aspects of reality and the time stone was able to introduce time in a dimension without it. So yeah something like that should be piece of cake.

 

[Rez]

The stones control essential aspects of reality and the time stone was able to introduce time in a dimension without it. So yeah something like that should be piece of cake.

Guidebook saying Dormammu was trapped in the loop

 

[Greenshifter]

Dark dimension is explained as a world with no time Strange probably knew because of that

No time doesn't mean no causality, at least on the wiki IIRC. And since not everyone who lives in a timeless place gets acausality (I think, or else Dormammu would have had the ability already) that's not a guarantee that Dormammu would remember the loop without Strange's help.

 

[Greenshifter]

Guidebook saying Dormammu was trapped in the loop

I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that Strange had the capacity to keep Dormammu's memories intact instead of it being a feat for Dormammu.

 

[Rez]

I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that Strange had the capacity to keep Dormammu's memories intact instead of it being a feat for Dormammu.

And we have literally no reason to assume that

 

[Greenshifter]

And we have literally no reason to assume that

We do since it's the safest option for Strange, since he doesn't know beforehand whether Dormammu has acausality type 1 or not and his plan would rely on the educated guess that Dormammu has it.

 

[azontr]

We do since it's the safest option for Strange, since he doesn't know beforehand whether Dormammu has acausality type 1 or not and his plan would rely on the educated guess that Dormammu has it.

Ok. But you don't have any concrete evidence that he did. So, Dormammu simply being acausal, the actual assumed ability, takes precedence over your assumption.

 

[Rez]

We do since it's the safest option for Strange, since he doesn't know beforehand whether Dormammu has acausality type 1 or not and his plan would rely on the educated guess that Dormammu has it.

Strange does knows one thing and that is their is no time in dark dimension and that dark dimension exists outside time itself so time itself is an forgien concept to Dormammu

Strange states that just as Dormammu gave zealots powers from his dimension he brought powers from his dimension in form of time endless looped time we have no reason to assume any further honestly

 

[Greenshifter]

I'm assuming that Strange used an ability which we know he has to make his plan work 100% of the time, rather than you guys assuming that Dormammu has a resistance based on Strange's plan working and that Strange knew about said resistance beforehand, making his entire plan an educated guess, even though making educated guesses isn't Strange's style most of the time.

 

[Greenshifter]

Strange does knows one thing and that is their is no time in dark dimension and that dark dimension exists outside time itself so time itself is an forgien concept to Dormammu

Completely agree, but if that were enough for acausality type 1 (and thus for Strange to conclude that Dormammu would keep his memories) then this revision would have been a whole lot easier or not even a thing in the first place since he'd already have acausality on his page for years.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Occam's razor (I hope I'm applying this right) says no. Dormammu being acasual here is the simplest conclusion and should be preferred since the argument that "strange altered the loop to make dormammu remember" is more complicated and has little to no proof supporting it.

 

[azontr]

I'm assuming that Strange used an ability which we know he has to make his plan work 100% of the time, rather than you guys assuming that Dormammu has a resistance based on Strange's plan working and that Strange knew about said resistance beforehand, making his entire plan an educated guess, even though making educated guesses isn't Strange's style most of the time.

Yeah, fair, point, but you see, It's still an assumption. You can't prove strange did this, you can only assume he did, and even if you have actual concrete proof you refuse to show it. Actual evidence takes precedence over assumptions, even if they do seem to be the most probable. You are incompetent.

 

[Greenshifter]

I'd argue Strange knowing about Dormammu's resistance beforehand and hinging his plan on said fact has even less proof supporting it. Hence Occam's Razor would go to my interpretation.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

I'd argue Strange knowing about Dormammu's resistance beforehand and hinging his plan on said fact has even less proof supporting it. Hence Occam's Razor would go to my interpretation.

Who said his plan ever relied on Dormammu being aware that he was in a loop?

 

[azontr]

I'd argue Strange knowing about Dormammu's resistance beforehand and hinging his plan on said fact has even less proof supporting it. Hence Occam's Razor would go to my interpretation.

Does it? Cause your whole argument is based on pure assumption, when people have showed scans, videos, and more scans to support Dormammu being acausal.

 

[Greenshifter]

Actual evidence takes precedence over assumptions, even if they do seem to be the most probable. You are incompetent.

1) Both of us are assuming here and you just called my assumption "the most probable" so that'd point Occam's Razor towards my direction (I mean if there's actual (counter)evidence then there's no "most probable assumption")

2) Did you just call me incompetent?

 

[azontr]

2) Did you just call me incompetent?

Yeah it was an Umineko reference lol.

 

[Rez]

Strange does knows one thing and that is their is no time in dark dimension and that dark dimension exists outside time itself so time itself is an forgien concept to Dormammu

Strange states that just as Dormammu gave zealots powers from his dimension he brought powers from his dimension in form of time endless looped time we have no reason to assume any further honestly

I even gave some you some evidence but you completely proceeded to ignore it

 

[Rez]

So basically Strange came to an conclusion if dark dimension exists outside of time than Dormammu who lives in that said dimension will most likely not be affected by time in traditional way and whole thing that Strange did was an gamble anyway

 

[Greenshifter]

Who said his plan ever relied on Dormammu being aware that he was in a loop?

Eh, if Dormammu wasn't aware then how could he set him prisoner to the point he gives up?

Does it? Cause your whole argument is based on pure assumption, when people have showed scans, videos, and more scans to support Dormammu being acausal.

I agree with all the scans, they just don't prove acausality. Well they actually do (type 4 I think, but not by VSBW's standards pretty sure) but that's not what Rez is arguing anyways.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

Eh, if Dormammu wasn't aware then how could he set him prisoner to the point he gives up?

Strange literally came prepared to die over and over an over. Coming from strange's own words, as long as Dormammu was in the loop, Earth was safe. Strange never needed Dormammu to give up.

 

[Greenshifter]

Yeah it was an Umineko reference lol.

It better be.

So basically Strange came to an conclusion if dark dimension exists outside of time than Dormammu who lives in that said dimension will most likely not be affected by time in traditional way and whole thing that Strange did was an gamble anyway

Why would he assume that when 1) we on VSBW don't assume that (which by extension means they would be uncorrelated) and 2) he doesn't need to gamble by using the stone properly.

 

[Greenshifter]

Strange literally came prepared to die over and over an over. Coming from strange's own words, as long as Dormammu was in the loop, Earth was safe. Strange never needed Dormammu to give up.

Yeah but he came to bargain, he wouldn't bargain if Dormammu didn't even notice the loop.

 

[azontr]

It better be.

Ok? If I called you incompetent, don't try and sound all serious and get your panties in a bunch, be an adult and continue addressing the argument. I even put it in red text to let you know I was joking.

 

[Rez]

It better be.

Why would he assume that when 1) we on VSBW don't assume that (which by extension means they would be uncorrelated) and 2) he doesn't need to gamble by using the stone properly.

Yeah we don't assume that but in the movie we were told that dark dimension exists outside time then their is a reason for it and anyway the assumption you are making is much worse as it has no evidence to back it

 

[Bernkastelll]

It better be.

it is, as he said it in red

 

[Dalesean027]

it is, as he said it in red

Anything spoken is red is the absolute irrefutable truth