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I think Planck makes perfect sense.
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Abstract Existence Type 1 for Infinite Zamasu (STAFF ONLY)
- Thread starter Rez
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- dragon ball fusion zamasu
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You say it was his soul/spirit.
Now, every translations and statements say it was his will/mind/thoughts.
Now I want you to tell me how will/thoughts/mind= spirit/soul in dbs/dbz.
In thr entire history of the runtime of this franchise ,not a single time they referred to souls as wills, or minds as spirit. You have to prove that somehow will/thought and mind means soul in dbz.
The statement were very clear, not flowery and forward, saying that it was his will is what's engulfing the universe. You saying that will = spirit is a headcanon that isn't supported in dbz, nor do you have any statement or feat that are convincing enough to come to the conclusion that spirit= will.
Fused zamasu isn't a spirit or a soul.
Fused zamasu, going off my the official statement is : zamasu's will/thought/mind engulfing the universe.
Not zamasu's spirit/soul engulfing the universe.
I completely agree that not every spiritual entity should automatically have AE, but fused zamasu is different, not because he is a different type of spirit, he literally isn't a spirit.
He is zamasu's will, zamasu's though, zamasu's mind fusing and engulfing with the future universe and invading the present one.
Ant, spirit or souls aren't minds, thoughts or wills, not even dbz consider the two the same.
If he can get attacked, remember that he fused with the space time, and our heroes can and are Capable of interacting with space-times such as creating portals and rifts with their pure ki, like buu and black goku.
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Don't see how this is anything more than Incorporeality. If even that, considering Zamasu was very much physical when he engulfed Earth.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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I got permission from Antvasima to post in this thread.
I disagree with giving AE to Zamasu, because simply existing as a mind or will and taking over the universe is not enough to qualify for it, as Zamasu's disembodied soul/mind is not either conceptual nor metaphysical in nature, which is seemigly what is needed to qualify for AE according to this thread.
Also, accroding to the Abstract Existence Page on the wikia:
"Abstract Existence is the ability to embody an abstraction, such as a concept, thought, or information, and being immortal thanks to it"
As Zamasu was just a soul as he took over the universe to become Infinite Zamasu, he doesn't qualify for any of the abstractions shown here
I disagree with giving AE to Zamasu, because simply existing as a mind or will and taking over the universe is not enough to qualify for it, as Zamasu's disembodied soul/mind is not either conceptual nor metaphysical in nature, which is seemigly what is needed to qualify for AE according to this thread.
Also, accroding to the Abstract Existence Page on the wikia:
"Abstract Existence is the ability to embody an abstraction, such as a concept, thought, or information, and being immortal thanks to it"
As Zamasu was just a soul as he took over the universe to become Infinite Zamasu, he doesn't qualify for any of the abstractions shown here
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Zamasu for the last time isn't a soul
He is made from abstract components such as will, thoughts and mind that everyone generally can deduce that they are abstract.
You don't need to embody a concept to be an abstract you only need to embody abstract components such as concepts, thoughts or information.
Will/thought/mind are by default are abstract, emotions are absract, and will is technically an emotion.
Fused zamasu Is literally a will, a thought, and the mind of zamasu which are all abstract by nature, he embodies and he is them.
Vietthai96
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To be honest, you should prove he is physical as Infinite Zamasu, not just because you see it as physical
1. No one argued he become a concept in the first place, so this argument of your is pointless
2. According to the AE page itself, being Will which is Thought itself is Abstract in nature
3. Again like everyone else against this, so you should prove it is his soul, as in the anime episode itself no one stated IZ was Zamasu's soul, and Toei Timeline, Databook state it was his Will, so we have 2 sources stated it is his will while no anti-statement come from anime itself. IZ will not be a soul just because you and other said so
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What data book?
Vietthai96
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Exactly.
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Using a website is one thing but an art installment from a DVD case
Tell me about acausality type 4
Vietthai96
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1. I don't like that attitude of your and the way you comment to be honest, but again what matter of using source from artbook which including in offical Blu-ray Disk Box, it is not like we use illegal or fanon/non-canon source to back-up our pointUsing a website is one thing but an art installment from a DVD case
Tell me about acausality type 4
2. We don't even debate Acausal Type 4 from the start, what is your point????
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Based on everything said above, I'm not sure Infinite Zamasu really qualifies for Abstract Existence, it seems not definite enough that he embodies just an abstraction, I mean he can just have a Incorporeal form for his soul or something
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what soul
Gilad_Hyperstar
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2. A will is not a thought, but it's closer to an emotion, much like anger and fear
3. The default assumption is that if the physical body is destroyed, what remains from it is the soul, and Zamasu clearly posesses a soul. Gowasu stated in the episode that Zamasu casted away his physical form and is trying to become the universe itself
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The other suggestions in the OP that aren’t abstract existence.
Vietthai96
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So what your new reason then, you not even debunk anything in your previous points which me and other have been pointed out
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I don't think the change in Abstract Existence page is needed; I think counterarguments are possibly enough to come to a conclusion.
- In this case Zamasu was clearly portrayed as the physical universe in his ascended state, not as anything more than that.
- Fair. Zamasu's will might have Abstract Existence Type 1 by the current definition as a thought and emotion from the kanji (念). When his will fused with the universe, the case might be different. I do think fusionism would make the judgment on a case-by-case basis since Fusion can lose specific powers of their fusees in fiction if they don't share their nature like Fusion Zamasu having a lesser regeneration than Future Zamasu. So, I am neutral on Abstract Existence.
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Idk why people are trying to say because it’s not stated to be a soul in the show, that it’s something even more abstract and smaller than a soul that wasn’t stated in the show, when it’s is literally universal law that anybody that dies becomes a spirit/soul.
Select individuals are allowed to keep their body such as Elder Kai, but no gods are alive in that timeline except for those associated with Zeno.
Now...about acausality.
Select individuals are allowed to keep their body such as Elder Kai, but no gods are alive in that timeline except for those associated with Zeno.
Now...about acausality.
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Vietthai96
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1. But also nothing stated about when a DB character die they must be reduced to soul.....so again you should prove that IZ is Zamasu's soul
2. We don't debate about acausality though, that part is iffy and don't have much evidences for it, there could be acausality type 1 for God though but it is vague
So AE being can't have physical state, avatar, or vessel, iirc they can have it.
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I will say that I'm neutral about disembodied minds having AE type 1 by default, in case there's confusion
Also did Zamasu ever show the ability to exist as pure thought alone? If he took over the universe that's not abstract existence, since time-space isn't considered abstract
Also did Zamasu ever show the ability to exist as pure thought alone? If he took over the universe that's not abstract existence, since time-space isn't considered abstract
Vietthai96
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Hum, No, he never show the ability to exist as a pure thought before, but again it is hardly a debunk as his final state is IZ which is stated by 2 different sources as is Zamasu's Will and Thought, which we all known is to spread his justice. And no anti-statement by anime itself
Ah..i think i need to sleep......it is midnight in my timezone, sorry and thank for participating
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You have permission from an admin. But I don't see the reason why you went through the trouble to ask for it when nothing in your post helps this thread? Why did you even post this comment? Was it to make a 3-A Zamasu joke? Or was it to tell everyone that you're just watching? Or was it to say you're neutral? None of it helps the thread. Please only take permission if you have some information you want to present or elaborate on a point.
And staff members, please only give permission after checking what the person plans to post and whether that can help the thread. This is staff only for a reason.
People would be willing to help out more if this didn't turn into a back and forth spam of comments because nobody wants to read all this. People commenting here should understand that if there's anything going to be done and if they want a thread to be evaluated accurately, they need to keep their comments to a minimum and to the point and then wait for the evaluation. It should be easy to figure out after experiencing the last thread in which nothing got done.
Anyway, as far as this thread is concerned. I'll try to summarize the scenario from both perspectives here:
After Zamasu's body was destroyed by Trunks, he started becoming the universe (here's the video). As far as the anime goes, we were never told if this was Zamasu's spirit, soul or whatever. It was just called Zamasu. However, in the timeline presented on Toei's website, which is translated by Herms (who is considered to be the most credible source of anything related to DB translations), it is called Zamasu's will.
As far as the argument in favor goes, we have no reason to discredit information on Toei's website as long as it doesn't contradict the source material, because they are literally the WOG in this scenario. It is an additional piece of information from WoG which does not contradict any stated information about Infinite Zamasu.
And Zamasu existing as his will seems to qualify for Abstract Existence if we are only going by the current definition on the page.
The issues people have with this, as far as I've noticed them in this thread or the earlier thread are:
1) The rewording of the Abstract Existence definition. Ant and a few people think that AE should only be given in cases where a character embodies a general metaphysical concept or idea like, a character who embodies time, love, hatred, greed, darkness, envy and stuff like that. This is basically making the requirements stricter and it should perhaps be done separately if people want to go that route. Because it will effect other profiles too.
2) Even if it was not called Zamasu's soul, anybody who dies in the verse exists as a soul. This is a rule. Trunks only destroyed the body, which would mean Zamasu's soul was still intact (Zamasu also killed all the gods so nobody's there to force his soul into hell or anything). This was the default assumption before the new information, because that is how the verse works. And the current assumption based on this was that Zamasu was just incorporeal, existing without a body. So this could be a debate whether Zamasu is existing as a soul going by how the verse normally works, or as his will going by Toei's website. And whether or not this implies a contradiction.
3) Zamasu trying to become a universe is another thing because the universal space-time continuum isn't treated as abstract.
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1. Kami, a god, states everyone that dies goes to the afterlife.
2. Piccolo, who fused with Kami therefore has his knowledge, says he will first lose his body and his soul will go through a bunch of processes. Vegeta literally explodes all of his ki and has no body left, but King Yemma kept his soul intact and gave him a body - after the fact. However since there are no gods hence no order, there’s no precedent for how any process works under these conditions. You do become a soul though, you don’t get to bring your body unless there’s special circumstances, such as Kami personally taking Goku’s body to other world, the Z-fighters, etc.
We see kid buu get obliterated by the spirit bomb, similar to how Zamasu was killed, and his soul went to the afterlife where it was cleansed and he was reborn as Uub.
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I got the permission from Antvasima (here) to reply here.
I requested it because, from what i saw, because there is some confusion about Mind and Concepts. I study Psychology, or generally Human Sciences, so I will use some reference or similiar things if needed.
I start to say that i agree with the CRT and totally share Tago238 opinions.
contrary to a popular belief, the Mind isn't the same of The Brain, Mind and Brain have a relationship, but they aren't the same thing.The brain is necessary for all pshychc processes to take place. However, when we consider our thoughts, memories, emotions, ideas, dreams they come from the mind.
Understanding the relationship between mind and brain is very difficult, think that it has engaged philosophers and scientists for centuries. So I won't go into details, however we know that the brain is physical and material, but the mind is metaphysical and abstract. To make you understand I will give you an example (summarized from my textbook), think of it as if the brain was a hardware and the mind as a software. The hardware can be touched and it is physical, instead you cannot interact with the software because it is not in our own "" plane of existence "" (don't think of it as reality-fiction or something like that, that's not the point). All this leads to conceptions, in particular three: Localistic Conception, Interactionist Conception, and Anti-localistic Conception. these three express different concepts between mental functions and those of the brain and their connection, keep this in mind because we will fish it out later.
Was explained Before why Concept type 3 are equal to Mind. But i want say something about Concept type 4, Lesser Realist Concept. "Such concepts are abstract, but do not govern reality. Instead, these concepts are governed by the perception of these concepts by sentient beings. Without the perception of other beings, these concepts would cease to exist. " if you have read the explanation above, it will make you think something, that something is the Mind. Those concepts are the percpections and thoughs of sentient beings, they are truly subjective and they depends from the sentent beings, those is similiar to Emotions and Thoughs, those concepts comes from the conceptions and though which as said above comes from our Mind Function. I wanted say that for prove that Concept aren't always deeper than mind, so Abstract Existence being just a concept dosen't make much sense, due the explanation that i just gived. I also saw that we want practice some changes of an old CRT, though i want that CRT should be remaded, there are many outdated points there.
About Soul being equal to Mind, i do say that really depends sometimes, contrary to the mind there are various interpretantaions of what is the Soul. but im currenty neutral about it.
Now I want answer to some question
Mind is always abstract, unless if the verse make the popular error of making Mind the same thing of Brain, but without explanation it shouldn't be assumed.
About Mind Manipulation which affect abstract, it's a yes, but sometimes can also be a no. you can influence Mind just by influencing the Brain, due to the relationship. For Example in real life there is a current called "determinism", what it means shortly is that an action or decision is due to a cause and the cause of that is due to another cause and so on. various experiments were made during the 1900s, in which it was proved that the brain and our body act before we become aware (almost a second later), experiments that have come to be real things to be left open-mouthed, like machines that could predict your thoughts. it is good this is due to small or large events that affect us and our brain, and in so doing the mind, in this case we are not manipulating the abstract but rather the brain, the physical. So basically yes you can affect the mind without affecting the abstract, but it should be explained and we can't assume characthers always do that.
We have many characthers that are a reallity and also are abstract or non-physical Such Madoka Kamae, The Brother Deaths, Eternity and many many similiar to them. This varies from fiction to fiction, but it's mostly because due to ascending to another plane of existence on a metaphysical level which it would also be able to compromise the physical world on a universal, multiversal level and so on. this is because there is a metaphysical aspect that somehow engulfs even the physical reality itself, obviously this explanation is an assumption, sometimes there isn't a logic behind that, it can be dictated by the pure laws of fantasy. however i don't think that being a metaphysical entity and at the same time being the physical universe is an argument against the abstract existence or incorporeallity.
About acausality, the OP proposed Acausality type 4 but also said it's more like Acausality type 1, indeed it's more like acausality type 1 and Acausality type 1 negation, Beerus was refering to the future changing, and said that there is no way that god destroying a god wouldn't change the space-time, so he is saying 2 things: that Normally it wouldn't impact on space-time which sounds Acausality type 1 and that since god destroying god would instead it means it's acausality type 1 negation
So Acausality 1 and negation.
I almost taked an hour to write that but anyways
I requested it because, from what i saw, because there is some confusion about Mind and Concepts. I study Psychology, or generally Human Sciences, so I will use some reference or similiar things if needed.
I start to say that i agree with the CRT and totally share Tago238 opinions.
contrary to a popular belief, the Mind isn't the same of The Brain, Mind and Brain have a relationship, but they aren't the same thing.The brain is necessary for all pshychc processes to take place. However, when we consider our thoughts, memories, emotions, ideas, dreams they come from the mind.
Understanding the relationship between mind and brain is very difficult, think that it has engaged philosophers and scientists for centuries. So I won't go into details, however we know that the brain is physical and material, but the mind is metaphysical and abstract. To make you understand I will give you an example (summarized from my textbook), think of it as if the brain was a hardware and the mind as a software. The hardware can be touched and it is physical, instead you cannot interact with the software because it is not in our own "" plane of existence "" (don't think of it as reality-fiction or something like that, that's not the point). All this leads to conceptions, in particular three: Localistic Conception, Interactionist Conception, and Anti-localistic Conception. these three express different concepts between mental functions and those of the brain and their connection, keep this in mind because we will fish it out later.
Was explained Before why Concept type 3 are equal to Mind. But i want say something about Concept type 4, Lesser Realist Concept. "Such concepts are abstract, but do not govern reality. Instead, these concepts are governed by the perception of these concepts by sentient beings. Without the perception of other beings, these concepts would cease to exist. " if you have read the explanation above, it will make you think something, that something is the Mind. Those concepts are the percpections and thoughs of sentient beings, they are truly subjective and they depends from the sentent beings, those is similiar to Emotions and Thoughs, those concepts comes from the conceptions and though which as said above comes from our Mind Function. I wanted say that for prove that Concept aren't always deeper than mind, so Abstract Existence being just a concept dosen't make much sense, due the explanation that i just gived. I also saw that we want practice some changes of an old CRT, though i want that CRT should be remaded, there are many outdated points there.
About Soul being equal to Mind, i do say that really depends sometimes, contrary to the mind there are various interpretantaions of what is the Soul. but im currenty neutral about it.
Now I want answer to some question
Mind is always abstract, unless if the verse make the popular error of making Mind the same thing of Brain, but without explanation it shouldn't be assumed.
About Mind Manipulation which affect abstract, it's a yes, but sometimes can also be a no. you can influence Mind just by influencing the Brain, due to the relationship. For Example in real life there is a current called "determinism", what it means shortly is that an action or decision is due to a cause and the cause of that is due to another cause and so on. various experiments were made during the 1900s, in which it was proved that the brain and our body act before we become aware (almost a second later), experiments that have come to be real things to be left open-mouthed, like machines that could predict your thoughts. it is good this is due to small or large events that affect us and our brain, and in so doing the mind, in this case we are not manipulating the abstract but rather the brain, the physical. So basically yes you can affect the mind without affecting the abstract, but it should be explained and we can't assume characthers always do that.
We aren't Philosophy wiki (which is wrong you would actually said we aren't human sciences wiki but ok), but we aren't neither Physic wiki, or math wiki, or geometry wiki, but we still use various principe from them, some are even deep into those "subjects". the argument here is that we are not that so the mistake is justified and we should take it for what we know, this logic reminds me when we still had the old tiering system, anyway no, it's not a justification for making a mistake, if that's a thing wrong is wrong, there is none but nor perhaps.Furthermore, you don't need to have a lot of knowledge to do a little research on what the mind is.
We have many characthers that are a reallity and also are abstract or non-physical Such Madoka Kamae, The Brother Deaths, Eternity and many many similiar to them. This varies from fiction to fiction, but it's mostly because due to ascending to another plane of existence on a metaphysical level which it would also be able to compromise the physical world on a universal, multiversal level and so on. this is because there is a metaphysical aspect that somehow engulfs even the physical reality itself, obviously this explanation is an assumption, sometimes there isn't a logic behind that, it can be dictated by the pure laws of fantasy. however i don't think that being a metaphysical entity and at the same time being the physical universe is an argument against the abstract existence or incorporeallity.
The only wrong point here is that zamasu didn't die, if im not wrong there was proveda above the wog which says that zamasu, instead of regenerating again, he decided to became the universe itself and his will. also if I remember correctly in the Daizenshuu it was said that the souls of the dead, regardless of whether they come from the living kingdom or from the kingdom of demons, are immediately taken to the afterlife and then be judged, which is a support argument of zamasu not being the soul.
About acausality, the OP proposed Acausality type 4 but also said it's more like Acausality type 1, indeed it's more like acausality type 1 and Acausality type 1 negation, Beerus was refering to the future changing, and said that there is no way that god destroying a god wouldn't change the space-time, so he is saying 2 things: that Normally it wouldn't impact on space-time which sounds Acausality type 1 and that since god destroying god would instead it means it's acausality type 1 negation
So Acausality 1 and negation.
I almost taked an hour to write that but anyways
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He didn’t die completely, but he did experience physical death. Gowasu stated because Zamasu fused with a mortal, that there was an imbalance between his soul and body, a weakness that could be exploited with the right power. Vegeta understands this as his mortal body is having an effect on his immortal one, which is what caused Goku to disfigure Zamasu’s body. Vegito stabs Zamasu with his ki and asks if he is in pain judging by the look on his face, to which Zamasu replies “I am immortal and cannot be defeated”, which is clearly a reference to his body. Reminder, Zamasu wished for BODILY immortality. Vegito tells him he isn’t immortal anymore since he fused with black.
His immortality is shown against Trunks when he does damage with his regular ki blade and his immortality instantly deletes the damage. However once he uses his Sword of Hope and stabs Zamasu, his body can’t heal from that specific attack, and he gets bisected and his body gets destroyed. He had no choice in the matter, he went out screaming. The entire episode was set up to exploit the weakness in Zamasu’s fused body and ultimately destroy it.
The fact that there aren’t any gods to judge Zamasu doesn’t mean that he doesn’t become a soul, because as you said the souls are taken immediately to be judged. A soul that can’t be or isn’t taken simply isn’t judged.
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Just to clarify: I do not really care about this specific case. My concern is that this will set a precedent that all spiritual beings listed in the wiki should automatically get Abstract Existence instead of Incorporeality.
Also, can somebody summarise the other suggested revisions please?
Also, can somebody summarise the other suggested revisions please?
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That should be a separate, actual staff-only thread even though it seems it was accepted in the past.
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Abstract existence doesn't have any real justification in my view. It's a mix of incorporeal and fusion/absorption.
I'm also not sure there's any really evidence for Acasual since the timelines are just alt-multiverses rather than being the current universe in the distant past or future.
Supernatural willpower is probably fine.
Vietthai96
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So this time you are the one cherrypicking dialogue to prove your headcanon despite those points are totally irrelevant to the matter at hand and it can't prove IZ is Zamasu's soul. Also about the part there are no god judge, you need to prove there are actually no God left, Anime mention he only kill Supreme Kai in order to incap God Of Destruction due to the life-link. So your "fact" that Zamasu kill all god is your own made-up fact, the person to judge the soul still there, and nothing mention him being dead that mean he still alive, just not show on-screen.
Also, we don't even know after Supreme Kai die, what happen to them, Old Kai just give his life to Goku, he not truly die, Grand Supreme Kai got swallowed by Buu so in a sense his body fused with Buu, he not truly die either, applied mortal soul logic to Supreme Kai is flawed logic as nothing show they are also being bounded by that logic
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“Old Kai just give his life to Goku, he not truly die”
I refuse to respond to you anymore. Just moving the goalposts at this point.
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So should we go with these solutions then?
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I am asking once again.
Being made from abstract components such as will, thoughts, and mind. Embodying those, and being those abstract components. Being stated by the most trustworthy, official source that has the highest authority somehow doesn't give you abstract existence when abstract existence by default is embodying abstract stuff like thoughts, information, and concepts.
We are literally saying the same stuff yet no one listens.
Fused zamasu isn't a soul.
Fused zamasu isn't a spirit.
Fused zamasu is zamasu's will, thoughts and mind.
Being stated that he is zamasu's will by the most trustworthy source.
Fused zamasu is just zamasu's will fusing with the universe, becoming the universe and even invading the present timeline.
at this point, people really are going to stop caring to defend their original points, that if they already haven't giving up.
Being made from abstract components such as will, thoughts, and mind. Embodying those, and being those abstract components. Being stated by the most trustworthy, official source that has the highest authority somehow doesn't give you abstract existence when abstract existence by default is embodying abstract stuff like thoughts, information, and concepts.
We are literally saying the same stuff yet no one listens.
Fused zamasu isn't a soul.
Fused zamasu isn't a spirit.
Fused zamasu is zamasu's will, thoughts and mind.
Being stated that he is zamasu's will by the most trustworthy source.
Fused zamasu is just zamasu's will fusing with the universe, becoming the universe and even invading the present timeline.
at this point, people really are going to stop caring to defend their original points, that if they already haven't giving up.
Vietthai96
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To correct this, it is Infinite Zamasu
to Ant:
1. We have 2 sources stated that Infinite Zamasu is Zamasu's Will, on of it from Toei Timeline which is a official source and translated by Herm who is credible when it come to DB translation, and like AKM said we can't just brush it off as it is, in a sense WoG for DBS, to futher back-up this point Toei was given almost full privilege in the making of DBS anime as Toriyama only throw them the outline of the story he want, Toei and Toyotaro will make their own thing. So there is no reason to disregard Toei Timeline's information. The 2nd sources stated IZ is Zamasu's Will is from Booklet, which come from the artbook of the Box that contain Blu-ray Disk feature description for the episode the disk contain, it is also another official sources because this is release directly by Toei themself those make the Anime, another reason to not disregard it. Not only that but also we have no anti-statement from the anime itself.
2. For the counter-argument, most of it was IZ is not embody concept, his justice is not actual concept and just flowery language, while we are not even based on that to prove him being AE, which is moot. Next is IZ is spiritual/soul which again nothing in anime stated IZ was Zamasu's Soul, and 2 official source stated IZ is his will. Last was IZ being physical and he can shot blast; well we don't deny space-time being physical, but nothing stated AE being can't have physical vessel or avatar and can't fight, if have physical vessel make them lost their AE rating, i think we should revise all AE being on the wiki to remove any character have AE rating while still have physical vessel.
Well this is my comment
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