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Abstract Existence Type 1 for Infinite Zamasu (STAFF ONLY)

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Andytrenom

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I will say that I'm neutral about disembodied minds having AE type 1 by default, in case there's confusion

Also did Zamasu ever show the ability to exist as pure thought alone? If he took over the universe that's not abstract existence, since time-space isn't considered abstract
 
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Also did Zamasu ever show the ability to exist as pure thought alone? If he took over the universe that's not abstract existence, since time-space isn't considered abstract
Hum, No, he never show the ability to exist as a pure thought before, but again it is hardly a debunk as his final state is IZ which is stated by 2 different sources as is Zamasu's Will and Thought, which we all known is to spread his justice. And no anti-statement by anime itself

Ah..i think i need to sleep......it is midnight in my timezone, sorry and thank for participating
 

AKM sama

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3-A Infinite Zamasu when

And yeah, I have the permission from Abstractions, tho I'm just watching. Neutral on Type 1 AE.
You have permission from an admin. But I don't see the reason why you went through the trouble to ask for it when nothing in your post helps this thread? Why did you even post this comment? Was it to make a 3-A Zamasu joke? Or was it to tell everyone that you're just watching? Or was it to say you're neutral? None of it helps the thread. Please only take permission if you have some information you want to present or elaborate on a point.

And staff members, please only give permission after checking what the person plans to post and whether that can help the thread. This is staff only for a reason.

Would any of you be willing to help out here please?
People would be willing to help out more if this didn't turn into a back and forth spam of comments because nobody wants to read all this. People commenting here should understand that if there's anything going to be done and if they want a thread to be evaluated accurately, they need to keep their comments to a minimum and to the point and then wait for the evaluation. It should be easy to figure out after experiencing the last thread in which nothing got done.

Do not only focus on the abstract existence issue in that case. It is not the only suggestion.
Anyway, as far as this thread is concerned. I'll try to summarize the scenario from both perspectives here:

After Zamasu's body was destroyed by Trunks, he started becoming the universe (here's the video). As far as the anime goes, we were never told if this was Zamasu's spirit, soul or whatever. It was just called Zamasu. However, in the timeline presented on Toei's website, which is translated by Herms (who is considered to be the most credible source of anything related to DB translations), it is called Zamasu's will.

As far as the argument in favor goes, we have no reason to discredit information on Toei's website as long as it doesn't contradict the source material, because they are literally the WOG in this scenario. It is an additional piece of information from WoG which does not contradict any stated information about Infinite Zamasu.

And Zamasu existing as his will seems to qualify for Abstract Existence if we are only going by the current definition on the page.




The issues people have with this, as far as I've noticed them in this thread or the earlier thread are:

1) The rewording of the Abstract Existence definition. Ant and a few people think that AE should only be given in cases where a character embodies a general metaphysical concept or idea like, a character who embodies time, love, hatred, greed, darkness, envy and stuff like that. This is basically making the requirements stricter and it should perhaps be done separately if people want to go that route. Because it will effect other profiles too.

2) Even if it was not called Zamasu's soul, anybody who dies in the verse exists as a soul. This is a rule. Trunks only destroyed the body, which would mean Zamasu's soul was still intact (Zamasu also killed all the gods so nobody's there to force his soul into hell or anything). This was the default assumption before the new information, because that is how the verse works. And the current assumption based on this was that Zamasu was just incorporeal, existing without a body. So this could be a debate whether Zamasu is existing as a soul going by how the verse normally works, or as his will going by Toei's website. And whether or not this implies a contradiction.

3) Zamasu trying to become a universe is another thing because the universal space-time continuum isn't treated as abstract.
 
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1. But also nothing stated about when a DB character die they must be reduced to soul.....so again you should prove that IZ is Zamasu's soul
2. We don't debate about acausality though, that part is iffy and don't have much evidences for it, there could be acausality type 1 for God though but it is vague

So AE being can't have physical state, avatar, or vessel, iirc they can have it.
1. Kami, a god, states everyone that dies goes to the afterlife.

2. Piccolo, who fused with Kami therefore has his knowledge, says he will first lose his body and his soul will go through a bunch of processes. Vegeta literally explodes all of his ki and has no body left, but King Yemma kept his soul intact and gave him a body - after the fact. However since there are no gods hence no order, there’s no precedent for how any process works under these conditions. You do become a soul though, you don’t get to bring your body unless there’s special circumstances, such as Kami personally taking Goku’s body to other world, the Z-fighters, etc.

We see kid buu get obliterated by the spirit bomb, similar to how Zamasu was killed, and his soul went to the afterlife where it was cleansed and he was reborn as Uub.
 
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I got the permission from Antvasima (here) to reply here.

I requested it because, from what i saw, because there is some confusion about Mind and Concepts. I study Psychology, or generally Human Sciences, so I will use some reference or similiar things if needed.

I start to say that i agree with the CRT and totally share Tago238 opinions.

contrary to a popular belief, the Mind isn't the same of The Brain, Mind and Brain have a relationship, but they aren't the same thing.The brain is necessary for all pshychc processes to take place. However, when we consider our thoughts, memories, emotions, ideas, dreams they come from the mind.

Understanding the relationship between mind and brain is very difficult, think that it has engaged philosophers and scientists for centuries. So I won't go into details, however we know that the brain is physical and material, but the mind is metaphysical and abstract. To make you understand I will give you an example (summarized from my textbook), think of it as if the brain was a hardware and the mind as a software. The hardware can be touched and it is physical, instead you cannot interact with the software because it is not in our own "" plane of existence "" (don't think of it as reality-fiction or something like that, that's not the point). All this leads to conceptions, in particular three: Localistic Conception, Interactionist Conception, and Anti-localistic Conception. these three express different concepts between mental functions and those of the brain and their connection, keep this in mind because we will fish it out later.

Was explained Before why Concept type 3 are equal to Mind. But i want say something about Concept type 4, Lesser Realist Concept. "Such concepts are abstract, but do not govern reality. Instead, these concepts are governed by the perception of these concepts by sentient beings. Without the perception of other beings, these concepts would cease to exist. " if you have read the explanation above, it will make you think something, that something is the Mind. Those concepts are the percpections and thoughs of sentient beings, they are truly subjective and they depends from the sentent beings, those is similiar to Emotions and Thoughs, those concepts comes from the conceptions and though which as said above comes from our Mind Function. I wanted say that for prove that Concept aren't always deeper than mind, so Abstract Existence being just a concept dosen't make much sense, due the explanation that i just gived. I also saw that we want practice some changes of an old CRT, though i want that CRT should be remaded, there are many outdated points there.

About Soul being equal to Mind, i do say that really depends sometimes, contrary to the mind there are various interpretantaions of what is the Soul. but im currenty neutral about it.

Now I want answer to some question
You can consider thought and awareness in its purest state to be abstractions, but it's questionable whether the mind itself will function like an abstraction in all cases. For example if you use astral projection to send your mind somewhere else does it count as type 1 AE, or when you are being mind controlled are you being controlled at the abstract level? The thing about abstract ideas is that they don't exist in space or can be physically interacted with, they are recognised and propagated, like how information isn't what's written on a piece of paper or a computer screen but what's conveyed through the language. My question is whether the mind in this case is purely an aspatial abstraction
or does it exist as a sort of intangible energy or substance that can travel from place to place in the same manner as a physical object?


I do think existing as purely the mind can sometimes count as AE type 1 but there will be cases where it will be more like an intangible force that drifts from place and can be contained within objects. So it's more a case by case situation

Mind is always abstract, unless if the verse make the popular error of making Mind the same thing of Brain, but without explanation it shouldn't be assumed.

About Mind Manipulation which affect abstract, it's a yes, but sometimes can also be a no. you can influence Mind just by influencing the Brain, due to the relationship. For Example in real life there is a current called "determinism", what it means shortly is that an action or decision is due to a cause and the cause of that is due to another cause and so on. various experiments were made during the 1900s, in which it was proved that the brain and our body act before we become aware (almost a second later), experiments that have come to be real things to be left open-mouthed, like machines that could predict your thoughts. it is good this is due to small or large events that affect us and our brain, and in so doing the mind, in this case we are not manipulating the abstract but rather the brain, the physical. So basically yes you can affect the mind without affecting the abstract, but it should be explained and we can't assume characthers always do that.

The argument of the revision Ant linked was that abstract existence would be too all-encompassing if we use that logic. This isn’t philosophy wiki. I would imagine an unbelievable about of profiles would have it if we didn’t have restrictions.

So simply put, the intent of the term is for characters that embody abstract concepts in a fictional setting, such as infinity, eternity, oblivion, evil, etc, not any and all things that we theorize to be abstract by definition.
We aren't Philosophy wiki (which is wrong you would actually said we aren't human sciences wiki but ok), but we aren't neither Physic wiki, or math wiki, or geometry wiki, but we still use various principe from them, some are even deep into those "subjects". the argument here is that we are not that so the mistake is justified and we should take it for what we know, this logic reminds me when we still had the old tiering system, anyway no, it's not a justification for making a mistake, if that's a thing wrong is wrong, there is none but nor perhaps.Furthermore, you don't need to have a lot of knowledge to do a little research on what the mind is.

Zamasu is the physical universe so it's not his will argument (i didn't find the original message so)

We have many characthers that are a reallity and also are abstract or non-physical Such Madoka Kamae, The Brother Deaths, Eternity and many many similiar to them. This varies from fiction to fiction, but it's mostly because due to ascending to another plane of existence on a metaphysical level which it would also be able to compromise the physical world on a universal, multiversal level and so on. this is because there is a metaphysical aspect that somehow engulfs even the physical reality itself, obviously this explanation is an assumption, sometimes there isn't a logic behind that, it can be dictated by the pure laws of fantasy. however i don't think that being a metaphysical entity and at the same time being the physical universe is an argument against the abstract existence or incorporeallity.

Idk why people are trying to say because it’s not stated to be a soul in the show, that it’s something even more abstract and smaller than a soul that wasn’t stated in the show, when it’s is literally universal law that anybody that dies becomes a spirit/soul.
The only wrong point here is that zamasu didn't die, if im not wrong there was proveda above the wog which says that zamasu, instead of regenerating again, he decided to became the universe itself and his will. also if I remember correctly in the Daizenshuu it was said that the souls of the dead, regardless of whether they come from the living kingdom or from the kingdom of demons, are immediately taken to the afterlife and then be judged, which is a support argument of zamasu not being the soul.


About acausality, the OP proposed Acausality type 4 but also said it's more like Acausality type 1, indeed it's more like acausality type 1 and Acausality type 1 negation, Beerus was refering to the future changing, and said that there is no way that god destroying a god wouldn't change the space-time, so he is saying 2 things: that Normally it wouldn't impact on space-time which sounds Acausality type 1 and that since god destroying god would instead it means it's acausality type 1 negation

So Acausality 1 and negation.

I almost taked an hour to write that but anyways
 
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The only wrong point here is that zamasu didn't die, if im not wrong there was proveda above the wog which says that zamasu, instead of regenerating again, he decided to became the universe itself and his will. also if I remember correctly in the Daizenshuu it was said that the souls of the dead, regardless of whether they come from the living kingdom or from the kingdom of demons, are immediately taken to the afterlife and then be judged, which is a support argument of zamasu not being the soul.
He didn’t die completely, but he did experience physical death. Gowasu stated because Zamasu fused with a mortal, that there was an imbalance between his soul and body, a weakness that could be exploited with the right power. Vegeta understands this as his mortal body is having an effect on his immortal one, which is what caused Goku to disfigure Zamasu’s body. Vegito stabs Zamasu with his ki and asks if he is in pain judging by the look on his face, to which Zamasu replies “I am immortal and cannot be defeated”, which is clearly a reference to his body. Reminder, Zamasu wished for BODILY immortality. Vegito tells him he isn’t immortal anymore since he fused with black.

His immortality is shown against Trunks when he does damage with his regular ki blade and his immortality instantly deletes the damage. However once he uses his Sword of Hope and stabs Zamasu, his body can’t heal from that specific attack, and he gets bisected and his body gets destroyed. He had no choice in the matter, he went out screaming. The entire episode was set up to exploit the weakness in Zamasu’s fused body and ultimately destroy it.

The fact that there aren’t any gods to judge Zamasu doesn’t mean that he doesn’t become a soul, because as you said the souls are taken immediately to be judged. A soul that can’t be or isn’t taken simply isn’t judged.
 

Antvasima

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Just to clarify: I do not really care about this specific case. My concern is that this will set a precedent that all spiritual beings listed in the wiki should automatically get Abstract Existence instead of Incorporeality.

Also, can somebody summarise the other suggested revisions please?
 
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Just to clarify: I do not really care about this specific case. My concern is that this will set a precedent that all spiritual beings listed in the wiki should automatically get Abstract Existence instead of Incorporeality.

Also, can somebody summarise the other suggested revisions please?
That should be a separate, actual staff-only thread even though it seems it was accepted in the past.
 

Qawsedf234

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Would any of you be willing to help out here please
Abstract existence doesn't have any real justification in my view. It's a mix of incorporeal and fusion/absorption.

I'm also not sure there's any really evidence for Acasual since the timelines are just alt-multiverses rather than being the current universe in the distant past or future.

Supernatural willpower is probably fine.
 
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He didn’t die completely, but he did experience physical death. Gowasu stated because Zamasu fused with a mortal, that there was an imbalance between his soul and body, a weakness that could be exploited with the right power. Vegeta understands this as his mortal body is having an effect on his immortal one, which is what caused Goku to disfigure Zamasu’s body. Vegito stabs Zamasu with his ki and asks if he is in pain judging by the look on his face, to which Zamasu replies “I am immortal and cannot be defeated”, which is clearly a reference to his body. Reminder, Zamasu wished for BODILY immortality. Vegito tells him he isn’t immortal anymore since he fused with black.

His immortality is shown against Trunks when he does damage with his regular ki blade and his immortality instantly deletes the damage. However once he uses his Sword of Hope and stabs Zamasu, his body can’t heal from that specific attack, and he gets bisected and his body gets destroyed. He had no choice in the matter, he went out screaming. The entire episode was set up to exploit the weakness in Zamasu’s fused body and ultimately destroy it.

The fact that there aren’t any gods to judge Zamasu doesn’t mean that he doesn’t become a soul, because as you said the souls are taken immediately to be judged. A soul that can’t be or isn’t taken simply isn’t judged.
So this time you are the one cherrypicking dialogue to prove your headcanon despite those points are totally irrelevant to the matter at hand and it can't prove IZ is Zamasu's soul. Also about the part there are no god judge, you need to prove there are actually no God left, Anime mention he only kill Supreme Kai in order to incap God Of Destruction due to the life-link. So your "fact" that Zamasu kill all god is your own made-up fact, the person to judge the soul still there, and nothing mention him being dead that mean he still alive, just not show on-screen.
Also, we don't even know after Supreme Kai die, what happen to them, Old Kai just give his life to Goku, he not truly die, Grand Supreme Kai got swallowed by Buu so in a sense his body fused with Buu, he not truly die either, applied mortal soul logic to Supreme Kai is flawed logic as nothing show they are also being bounded by that logic
 

Rez

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We finally have Qliphoth_Bacikal's translations for art book statement instead of just some machine translations
The fused Zamasu was sliced by Trunks, but their thought flew into the sky, wrapping the entire earth.
 
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We finally have Qliphoth_Bacikal's translations for art book statement instead of just some machine translations
The fused Zamasu was sliced by Trunks, but their thought flew into the sky, wrapping the entire earth.
So it kinda confirms what we see on screen, he only really consumed the Earth, but had greater potential.
 

Rez

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So it kinda confirms what we see on screen, he only really consumed the Earth, but had greater potential.
No this statement is for that particular moment when he was sliced the artbook with Blu ray box are practically episode summaries and Even in show we saw him affect present timeline and the universe
 
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Antvasima

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Abstract existence doesn't have any real justification in my view. It's a mix of incorporeal and fusion/absorption.

I'm also not sure there's any really evidence for Acasual since the timelines are just alt-multiverses rather than being the current universe in the distant past or future.

Supernatural willpower is probably fine.
So should we go with these solutions then?
 
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I am asking once again.
Being made from abstract components such as will, thoughts, and mind. Embodying those, and being those abstract components. Being stated by the most trustworthy, official source that has the highest authority somehow doesn't give you abstract existence when abstract existence by default is embodying abstract stuff like thoughts, information, and concepts.
We are literally saying the same stuff yet no one listens.
Fused zamasu isn't a soul.
Fused zamasu isn't a spirit.
Fused zamasu is zamasu's will, thoughts and mind.
Being stated that he is zamasu's will by the most trustworthy source.
Fused zamasu is just zamasu's will fusing with the universe, becoming the universe and even invading the present timeline.
at this point, people really are going to stop caring to defend their original points, that if they already haven't giving up.
 

Antvasima

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Well, I am neutral about this particular case. If it would not set a bad precedent for other pages, I don't really mind.
 
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I am asking once again.
Being made from abstract components such as will, thoughts, and mind. Embodying those, and being those abstract components. Being stated by the most trustworthy, official source that has the highest authority somehow doesn't give you abstract existence when abstract existence by default is embodying abstract stuff like thoughts, information, and concepts.
We are literally saying the same stuff yet no one listens.
Fused zamasu isn't a soul.
Fused zamasu isn't a spirit.
Fused zamasu is zamasu's will, thoughts and mind.
Being stated that he is zamasu's will by the most trustworthy source.
Fused zamasu is just zamasu's will fusing with the universe, becoming the universe and even invading the present timeline.
at this point, people really are going to stop caring to defend their original points, that if they already haven't giving up.
To correct this, it is Infinite Zamasu

to Ant:
1. We have 2 sources stated that Infinite Zamasu is Zamasu's Will, on of it from Toei Timeline which is a official source and translated by Herm who is credible when it come to DB translation, and like AKM said we can't just brush it off as it is, in a sense WoG for DBS, to futher back-up this point Toei was given almost full privilege in the making of DBS anime as Toriyama only throw them the outline of the story he want, Toei and Toyotaro will make their own thing. So there is no reason to disregard Toei Timeline's information. The 2nd sources stated IZ is Zamasu's Will is from Booklet, which come from the artbook of the Box that contain Blu-ray Disk feature description for the episode the disk contain, it is also another official sources because this is release directly by Toei themself those make the Anime, another reason to not disregard it. Not only that but also we have no anti-statement from the anime itself.

2. For the counter-argument, most of it was IZ is not embody concept, his justice is not actual concept and just flowery language, while we are not even based on that to prove him being AE, which is moot. Next is IZ is spiritual/soul which again nothing in anime stated IZ was Zamasu's Soul, and 2 official source stated IZ is his will. Last was IZ being physical and he can shot blast; well we don't deny space-time being physical, but nothing stated AE being can't have physical vessel or avatar and can't fight, if have physical vessel make them lost their AE rating, i think we should revise all AE being on the wiki to remove any character have AE rating while still have physical vessel.

Well this is my comment
 

AKM sama

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We finally have Qliphoth_Bacikal's translations for art book statement instead of just some machine translations
The fused Zamasu was sliced by Trunks, but their thought flew into the sky, wrapping the entire earth.
Then we need to allow all statements from DB sources such as databooks, etc. because the standard is no longer being impartially upheld.
For anybody in confusion, a DVD databook is not the source we are using. At all. You can only use it to say it is supporting what's written on Toei's website, and that's it.

The main basis of this thread's existence is the stuff written on Toei's website, which is essentially equal to WoG. If the evidence came from only a DVD databook, this would have been rejected already.
 

Andytrenom

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My position here is this, I don't think taking over something not abstract with your mind should be proof of abstract existence. Unless Zamasu showed the ability to exist purely as his mind without inhabiting an object he should not have AE type 1
 

Antvasima

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For anybody in confusion, a DVD databook is not the source we are using. At all. You can only use it to say it is supporting what's written on Toei's website, and that's it.

The main basis of this thread's existence is the stuff written on Toei's website, which is essentially equal to WoG. If the evidence came from only a DVD databook, this would have been rejected already.
Okay. Never mind then.
 

Antvasima

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My position here is this, I don't think taking over something not abstract with your mind should be proof of abstract existence. Unless Zamasu showed the ability to exist purely as his mind without inhabiting an object he should not have AE type 1
That is a good point.
 
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My position here is this, I don't think taking over something not abstract with your mind should be proof of abstract existence. Unless Zamasu showed the ability to exist purely as his mind without inhabiting an object he should not have AE type 1
That is a good point.
Well he already exist as a Will before taking over Earth and the Universe, it is clearly showed in the Anime, right after Trunks cut the guy in half, a silence moment for a while and after that is the red-black color thing. He just taking the Earth and then the Universe so he can have a physical vessel to interacting with others and well, spread his justice

We could see the process of him being a Will before taking over stuff
 
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Please explain.
There have been plenty of stated facts or “information” if you will in actual published DB literary works. Granted they all have Akira Toriyama on the title but the information was compiled by the staff at Shueisha, another publishing company, but the information in them isn’t always accurate. Not to say it’s all inaccurate because going to that logic would be an intentional gross misrepresentation of what I just said, but it’s not to be taken at face value.

People at this very moment are still debating over statements from a book produced in 1996, one of which finally just got accepted after proof from the primary source (manga).
We could see the process of him being a Will before taking over stuff
Are you saying his will is that red light?
 

Antvasima

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I am not sure. I am personally uncertain about the abstract existence issue.
 
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I am not sure. I am personally uncertain about the abstract existence issue.
I understand what you feel, because Anime don't state about the thing, it come from Toei Timeline, and have another source back-up but come from Artbook in BD Disk Box, 2 sources that most people will miss, and well AE is a huge thing for DB. But the evidences, while don't have much, pretty solid and no anti-statement from the anime itself. But i think it is time we wrap this up, unless there is new argument against AE for Infinite Zamasu
 
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100% agree with Viet here, there’s no strong counter arguments that go against the Toei Website besides our “understanding” of how the DB universe works which compared to Toei it isn’t much of a good argument. I say we get this added, link the proper sources with its justification and if we need to put a note, specifically state why Zamasu got it because of the official statement and the back up support along with the lack of anti feats on his page so that way that can cover anyone else trying to use Zamasu as an example for why XYZ should also have AE. Remember this is only for type 1.
He also should get his supernatural willpower, not sure what the verdict was on Acausality type 1 for him and the gods. Also there’s a regeneration thread for Zamasu that needs a looking at too
 
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What staff agreed anyway?
Well currently, none
You, AKM and Ant seem to be neutral (You leaning to disagree but switch to neutral after discord talk...)
DDM disagree but his reason is because conceptual which not the point of the thread as the reasoning for IZ have AE is Will and Thought, not Conceptual. So i am waiting for him to re-comment if he have anything new regarding the Will and Thought. But look like he doesn't come back.
Andy and Qawsedf234 disagree
 
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Then why would you think this is fine to apply?
To the staff who disagree, i already counter their point, and they are not even counter back. Don't tell me that staff just need to show-up and said disagree based on their personal opinion then CRT can't be apply, if that is, then to be honest, CRT don't need to exist because no matter how good the CRT and the argument is, you guys just need to said yes or no, then why need CRT anymore cause you guys hold full power over it???
 

Planck69

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A staff still has to agree though, else CRTs devolve into a mess of popularity contests where any verse with enough supporters can get things passed.

And there is such a thing as your counters not being enough or just being plainly incorrect to what staff have viewed said thread. Ever thought of that? Anyway, just wait until they comment on this again or another staff reviews this.
 
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A staff still has to agree though, else CRTs devolve into a mess of popularity contests where any verse with enough supporters can get things passed.

And there is such a thing as your counters not being enough or just being plainly incorrect to what staff have viewed said thread. Ever thought of that? Anyway, just wait until they comment on this again or another staff reviews this.
Not good enough or not they still need to counter, just because they silence doesn't automatically mean my point is bad. I understand the first point, but at the same time staff can abuse their power to stop thing they don't want, and staff at the same time also can have a popularity contests between each other or between them and regular member, and because staff hold authority, they always come out victorious.

Edit: Well look like i'm being emotional and the thing got derail, should focus on this CRT instead
 
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Well, in a sense it is the only visual indicated of IZ
If you are saying his will is that red light (which what else could his will be since that was the only thing the viewer could visually see come from where his body used to be), then that simply looks like his energy. It's the same exact material as the ki blasts he was shooting out of his sky face. It was after all, this same red energy that beamed toward the sky and crashed into it, spreading Zamasu's essence across the planet right?
 
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If you are saying his will is that red light (which what else could his will be since that was the only thing the viewer could visually see come from where his body used to be), then that simply looks like his energy. It's the same exact material as the ki blasts he was shooting out of his sky face. It was after all, this same red energy that beamed toward the sky and crashed into it, spreading Zamasu's essence across the planet right?
Like i said, that is the only visual indicator of him, and if you want to argue something, be fast, goes around the bush, asking and guessing doesn't solve the problem
 

Antvasima

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Just a note that our staff are generally specifically selected due to being our most rational, reliable, and reasonable members.
 
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Like i said, that is the only visual indicator of him, and if you want to argue something, be fast, goes around the bush, asking and guessing doesn't solve the problem
If that’s the only visual indicator of him then it’s safe to say it is him. It’s not like other fictions where you can’t actually see what happens but the character in question appears as if the sky is talking.
 

Antvasima

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Since supernatural willpower seems to have been accepted, is somebody willing to apply it to the Zamasu page?
 
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Since supernatural willpower seems to have been accepted, is somebody willing to apply it to the Zamasu page?
While i'm willing to apply, there is still AE to discuss
If that’s the only visual indicator of him then it’s safe to say it is him. It’s not like other fictions where you can’t actually see what happens but the character in question appears as if the sky is talking.
Well, what is your argument??
 

Antvasima

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There isn't enough staff approval for AE. It seems best to leave it be, apply what has been accepted, and close this thread.
 
Are we really trying to reject AE based on an artistic choice of the authors because "it seems energy"? Ignoring that authors themselves stated that the same red thing was Zamasu's will basically twice? I have no faith in this wiki anymore. Headcanon > statements. Message received cut and clear

I'm fed up of you guys. Sorry but when it's too much, it's too much.
 
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The whole point of this thread here is the AE, this only be brought up again in the future. Staff need to give yes and nos on this addition, there are too many neutrals when the options are clear

Staff agrees with the addition of AE for the statements provided by Toei and lack of Anti Feats to go against it.
Or
Staff disagrees with the addition due to an actual legitimate counter argument that hasn’t been brought up since all previous counter arguments are irrelevant to the actual main topic (like whether mind or will is conceptual) or have already been addressed.

It’s quite simple.
 
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The whole point of this thread here is the AE, this only be brought up again in the future. Staff need to give yes and nos on this addition, there are too many neutrals when the options are clear

Staff agrees with the addition of AE for the statements provided by Toei and lack of Anti Feats to go against it.
Or
Staff disagrees with the addition due to an actual legitimate counter argument that hasn’t been brought up since all previous counter arguments are irrelevant to the actual main topic (like whether mind or will is conceptual) or have already been addressed.

It’s quite simple.
^
 

Antvasima

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Are we really trying to reject AE based on an artistic choice of the authors because "it seems energy"? Ignoring that authors themselves stated that the same red thing was Zamasu's will basically twice? I have no faith in this wiki anymore. Headcanon > statements. Message received cut and clear

I'm fed up of you guys. Sorry but when it's too much, it's too much.
Please do not overreact. This is not a major issue, and I am not even against this addition. The problem is just that we have not received enough staff input to accept it.

Also, we just accepted far more drastic powers upgrades to Dragon Ball Heroes a little while back. Everybody need to calm down and be able to handle that not all suggested revisions are going to be accepted.
 

Theglassman12

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I think a possibly AE could work for Zamasu. Not 100% on how “will itself” being Abstract works since I’ve never dealt with anything like that in any other series.

Wouldn’t the absorption be just Fusionism? If he’s just merging with space and time that sounds more like Fusionism than absorption to me.

also where does Acausality negation come from in that scan?
 
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I think a possibly AE could work for Zamasu. Not 100% on how “will itself” being Abstract works since I’ve never dealt with anything like that in any other series.
Well because according to the AE page, Will, Thought and Emotion themself are abstract in nature, so it is the reason we arguing for AE Infinite Zamasu
 

Antvasima

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I think that it depends case by case on how each fiction handles the issue. For example, DC Comics treats willpower as something tangible enough to create machines and force blasts from via the Green Lanters, but they do not generally manipulate abstract concepts as far as I am aware.
 
I think that it depends case by case on how each fiction handles the issue. For example, DC Comics treats willpower as something tangible enough to create machines and force blasts from via the Green Lanters, but they do not generally manipulate abstract concepts as far as I am aware.
They actually do. It was stated in blackest night and brightest day.
 
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Are we really trying to reject AE based on an artistic choice of the authors because "it seems energy"? Ignoring that authors themselves stated that the same red thing was Zamasu's will basically twice? I have no faith in this wiki anymore. Headcanon > statements. Message received cut and clear

I'm fed up of you guys. Sorry but when it's too much, it's too much.
It's not headcanon, its literally what is shown on the screen. Red and black energy that is the visual representation of Zamasu's will. This same energy that he can shoot out of his mouth from his sky face. So personally, the fact that we see him represented as literal energy plus he's supposedly bypassing the life cycle in DB by supposedly not becoming a soul (which wasn't stated to be destroyed) and skipping straight to something far more abstract creates a conflict of logic for me.

 
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It's not headcanon, its literally what is shown on the screen. Red and black energy that is the visual representation of Zamasu's will. This same energy that he can shoot out of his mouth from his sky face. So personally, the fact that we see him represented as literal energy plus he's supposedly bypassing the life cycle in DB by supposedly not becoming a soul (which wasn't stated to be destroyed) and skipping straight to something far more abstract creates a conflict of logic for me.

To be honest your argument is repetitive and circular, On the other hand because you present your argument again i also will debunk your argument this time.
1. Using visual indicator and artistic choice to debunk AE is really bad argument, with this logic i can debunk all other AE character because they have visual.
2. After Zamasu death, there is a moment before the red-black thing appear on screen, that also mean Zamasu's will have been there for a while before the whole red-black thing shot up. Not only that but also you claim that re-black thing is his energy, so if it is his energy then skip to the part where Trunks, Goku and Vegeta shot their combine energy blast, it must have damage him, but no, the combine energy blast just cause something like ripple effect like water surface, clearly indicated that IZ is metaphysical which is a trait of AE being, futher support Toei Timeline state that IZ being Zamasu's will. And don't bring the whole thing: "But IZ shot energy blast" again, not thing stated AE beign can't fight and shot physical energy blast
3. About soul, while nothing stated Trunks destroy his soul, at the same time nothing stated IZ was his soul, so you can't even prove IZ is his soul. and while we know after people die their soul remain but at the same time not nothing stated Supreme Kai follow this rule of mortal. And we don't even have a feat of Supreme Kai die, Old Kai not really die, he give his life to Goku but he still have physical body, just a halo over his head to remind that he a dead person, same with North King Kai. So we don't even know after Kai body got destroy, what happen to their suppose "soul". We we can't even prove that after Kai physically die, they still have soul left or it disappear - an unknown area.

So wrap up, Nothing can prove IZ is Zamasu's soul, while Toei Timeline stated IZ is Zamasu's will, and another back-up evidence is belong to an artbook of DB Disk which in a sense is official source. So there is no reason to disregard AE Infinite Zamasu. So please if you come back to debunk AE IZ again please have a new, better argument, i'm tired of repetitive thing.

So to the next point of this topic, and to be honest, i can't even debunk the Possibly rating to have a solid/full-blown rating either as the evidence come from secondary source which is Toei Timeline and an Artbook. And while there is no anti-feat and anti-statement in Anime, there is also no statement for IZ being AE in anime which is the primary source. So as much as i love to have a full-blown AE IZ, i don't have enough things to make this happen. So Possibly AE is fine to me.
 

Antvasima

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Okay. We might have reached an agreement then.

Are other staff members here fine with "Possibly Abstract Existence"?
 
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Okay. We might have reached an agreement then.

Are other staff members here fine with "Possibly Abstract Existence"?
I don't think that any more Staff would bother to comment here, since 2 staff already agreed with "Possibly AE" I think we should just move on and apply the changes.
 

Antvasima

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Thank you. Let's wait a bit for more staff input, and then likely apply Supernatural Willpower and "Possibly Abstract Existence" afterwards.
 

Antvasima

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Okay. I will unlock the page. Tell me here when you are done.

 
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Okay. I will unlock the page. Tell me here when you are done.

Thank, i'm done, you can lock the profile and close this thread
 

Antvasima

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Wait a bit. There are no explanations in the page for cosmic awareness and supernatural willpower.
 
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Wait a bit. There are no explanations in the page for cosmic awareness and supernatural willpower.
Supernatural Willpower mostly come IZ exist as pure will, cast his broken physical body away, Cosmic Awareness is because he merged with universe and make it his physical vessel, he should have the awareness of his physical vessel

Edit: shit i forget to add explaination for Supernatural Willpower
 

Antvasima

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If he has not demonstrated any hint of cosmic awareness, it should be removed.

Feel free to add a supernatural willpower explanation.
 
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