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1- "this isn't a philosophy class" neither we are a science Class, then we shoud just reject any calculation since they are based on scientific evidence. That argument you just posted it's literally the worst "we aren't....class" guess what, most of our pages about our powers come from science, philosophy, physics, astronomy etc...just tell me that you don't want to agree on the definition of what abstract is without you giving us any concert evidence . And thoughts, emotions, wills, ideas are absract by nature, this is what the general public and the philosophy community agrees on, this isn't pulling stuff from our ass, this is literally something supported by logic,researchers, society and a bunch of philosophers.The argument of the revision Ant linked was that abstract existence would be too all-encompassing if we use that logic. This isn’t philosophy wiki. I would imagine an unbelievable about of profiles would have it if we didn’t have restrictions.
So simply put, the intent of the term is for characters that embody abstract concepts in a fictional setting, such as infinity, eternity, oblivion, evil, etc, not any and all things that we theorize to be abstract by definition.
Before we get to that however, the first issue is that Zamasu is not stated to be reduced to his will in the anime, just that he cast off his form/vessel. This is a statement that’s only mentioned on Toei’s website, not anywhere in the show. We know for a fact that if a body is destroyed, they’re reduced to their spirit if they’re not erased, and in certain circumstances depending on the person, they’re allowed to retain their body. His spirit was just merging with the universe.
Dragonball’s guidebooks stated Super Saiyan is a x50 multiplier, and it’s only just recently been accepted years after that was published, only due to the fact that there was sufficient evidence from the manga that supported the statement. We didn’t just accept it, same with the Toei link that explains all the ToP fighters, the bios that speak on some character’s abilities or hype statements were also in the anime.
True but in zamasu's case it isn't the mind it's his will specificallyYou can consider thought and awareness in its purest state to be abstractions, but it's questionable whether the mind itself will function like an abstraction in all cases. For example if you use astral projection to send your mind somewhere else does it count as type 1 AE, or when you are being mind controlled are you being controlled at the abstract level? The thing about abstract ideas is that they don't exist in space or can be physically interacted with, they are recognised and propagated, like how information isn't what's written on a piece of paper or a computer screen but what's conveyed through the language. My question is whether the mind in this case is purely an aspatial abstraction
or does it exist as a sort of intangible energy or substance that can travel from place to place in the same manner as a physical object?
I do think existing as purely the mind can sometimes count as AE type 1 but there will be cases where it will be more like an intangible force that drifts from place and can be contained within objects. So it's more a case by case situation
The toei timeline and others sources are stating itThe show not stating it wasn’t Zamasu’s will is not a sufficient or logical basis for jumping to the conclusion that the absence of a statement saying that it was not his will is proof that it his will. Again, the intention of the ability is to categorize characters who are, or who embody abstract concepts.
In this case, fused zamasu us just zamasu's will, thoughts and mind fusing with the universe and engulfing it. It was specifically stated that "his will is engulfing the universe " and that his mind/though flew into the sky and fused with it.You can consider thought and awareness in its purest state to be abstractions, but it's questionable whether the mind itself will function like an abstraction in all cases. For example if you use astral projection to send your mind somewhere else does it count as type 1 AE, or when you are being mind controlled are you being controlled at the abstract level? The thing about abstract ideas is that they don't exist in space or can be physically interacted with, they are recognised and propagated, like how information isn't what's written on a piece of paper or a computer screen but what's conveyed through the language. My question is whether the mind in this case is purely an aspatial abstraction
or does it exist as a sort of intangible energy or substance that can travel from place to place in the same manner as a physical object?
I do think existing as purely the mind can sometimes count as AE type 1 but there will be cases where it will be more like an intangible force that drifts from place and can be contained within objects. So it's more a case by case situation
And you are smashing your keyboard because I already stated why statement from the people who are in control of what happens in every second of the anime matters more than a narrators statement.Orange, you’re smashing your keyboard saying there’s statements from the producers when I already stated why it hardly matters. The super saiyan multiplier argument has 5 times the mention in various Dragonball productions, and wasn’t accepted until there was evidence from the manga that made those claims seem reasonable.
Awaiting further staff input.
Actually if their is an Inconsistency then the narrator's statment will hold more weight as it happens within the show but their are no inconsistencies in infinite zamasu's caseAnd you are smashing your keyboard because I already stated why statement from the people who are in control of what happens in every second of the anime matters more than a narrators statement.
Anyway I'll be waiting for staff opinion
Actually actually.Actually if their is an Inconsistency then the narrator's statment will hold more weight as it happens within the show but their are no inconsistencies in infinite zamasu's case
If it isn't supported by anything then it doesn't matter where the statements come from. Stop this ad nauseum argument of yours.Actually actually.
statements from the writers, producers, animators and the official company holds mode power than aanything in verse because the same people that made such statements are the people WHO LITERALLY MAKE THE SHOW.
but I guess a narrator is more reliable than the people who are responsible for the existence of the narrator
A mix of how will isn't necessary abstract as it depends on portrayal and the fact that Zamasu seems to be portrayed as an intangible mass as opposed to something fully abstract.Can I ask as to why you are disagreeing
No Ant, we can't ignore definitions just because "it's fiction" or "it's too encompassing/generalized". This is stuff that even children know, mind you.I agree with RisingIons and Andytrenom.
We cannot consider all spiritual entities in the wiki as automatically being fully abstract regardless of circumstances.
In this case Zamasu was clearly portrayed as the physical universe in his ascended state, not as anything more than that.
Also, I repeatedly told Orange that he is not allowed to comment here, as he does not seem stable enough, and his analyses are not of sufficiently high quality. Going to other staff members afterwards as a loophole is not acceptable.
1. Infinite Zamasu is not event spiritual, it is already stated that it was his will by Toei Timeline and Databook, by definition Will, Thought, Desire is abstract by nature. And even in the show Gowasu and any other character doesn't even mention IZ is Zamasu's soul either, so no anti-statement come directly from the show itself.I agree with RisingIons and Andytrenom.
We cannot consider all spiritual entities in the wiki as automatically being fully abstract regardless of circumstances.
In this case Zamasu was clearly portrayed as the physical universe in his ascended state, not as anything more than that.
Also, I repeatedly told Orange that he is not allowed to comment here, as he does not seem stable enough, and his analyses are not of sufficiently high quality. Going to other staff members afterwards as a loophole is not acceptable.
He never completely merged with it either, he was attempting completion though. Also his sky face could fire ki blasts, which was the same color as his energy which seems to be the basis of his being.
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No disrespect but that’s literally what you’ve been doing. You’ve constantly brought up the “anime didn’t show this” argument which is irrelevant in almost all cases when there’s official statements. The burden of proof is on you and everyone who disagrees with the official statement. It’s not “wELl I tHink iT mEans tHis gEoRGe..” We stay consistent with what is stated and our own standards.Why do you all keep getting permission just to keep spouting the same nonsense that was already addressed several times? There’s literally nothing in any of your arguments that wasn’t countered. You just keep repeating yourselves and arguing from special pleading.
And you’re not owed an explanation on why certain people can comment especially when you keep violating privileges that have long since been taken away from you. This thread is probably going to end up closed sooner than later.
I continue to maintain that whether or not Zamasu's spirit was called his will or not, it is still a spirit, and it would set a terrible precedent to automatically give every spiritual entity in the wiki, including ghosts, abstract existence if we allow this. That is a far more important issue than if Zamasu himself gets a minor ability addition, which some of you seem to obsess about.