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Abstract Existence Type 1 for Infinite Zamasu (STAFF ONLY)

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I was given permission to talk on this thread by AKM on discord.

I'd like to say that the mind does indeed fall under abstract existence both at a semantic level and at a practical level in VBW. First, he definition of abstract is "lacking a concrete or physical existence" and I'd argue that to the extent concepts/ information/ etc falls under this definition minds/ souls also do. This is because in the sense of being distinct from regular/ physical "existence" (which is where VBW specific issues come into play, since the idea is that AE is harder to affect than Incorporeality due to being "more distinct") any property that proves such distinction and can be applied to, say, a type 3 concept can also be applied to a mind. Type 3 concepts are not constructed from matter and could (but more specifically in the case of something already formless, like death) be said to be aspatial (although actual Aristotelian forms are quite blatantly spatial). Similarly, minds (in dualism) are not constructed from matter nor are they spatial (in fact Descartes described physical objects as "modes" of multiple substances covering different areas of space, whereas the modes of the mind would be whatever is being thought).

Secondly, Aristotle literally wrote that the form of a human was a mind; (in part, the forms of living creatures were referred to as souls and they had a thinking aspect) which is the very reason they are referred to as "concepts" to begin with (or well, it's an exploration into cognition and form that causes forms to be labelled as it).

The only concepts which can be considered "more abstract" by rational analysis would be Platonic forms (as they are atemporal) which are, uncoincidentally, the only representations of concepts that exist independently from the mind/ cognition.
 
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The argument of the revision Ant linked was that abstract existence would be too all-encompassing if we use that logic. This isn’t philosophy wiki. I would imagine an unbelievable about of profiles would have it if we didn’t have restrictions.

So simply put, the intent of the term is for characters that embody abstract concepts in a fictional setting, such as infinity, eternity, oblivion, evil, etc, not any and all things that we theorize to be abstract by definition.

Before we get to that however, the first issue is that Zamasu is not stated to be reduced to his will in the anime, just that he cast off his form/vessel. This is a statement that’s only mentioned on Toei’s website, not anywhere in the show. We know for a fact that if a body is destroyed, they’re reduced to their spirit if they’re not erased, and in certain circumstances depending on the person, they’re allowed to retain their body. His spirit was just merging with the universe.

Dragonball’s guidebooks stated Super Saiyan is a x50 multiplier, and it’s only just recently been accepted years after that was published, only due to the fact that there was sufficient evidence from the manga that supported the statement. We didn’t just accept it, same with the Toei link that explains all the ToP fighters, the bios that speak on some character’s abilities or hype statements were also in the anime.
 
Abstraction gave me the green light to comment here.
RisingIons said:
The argument of the revision Ant linked was that abstract existence would be too all-encompassing if we use that logic. This isn’t philosophy wiki. I would imagine an unbelievable about of profiles would have it if we didn’t have restrictions.

So simply put, the intent of the term is for characters that embody abstract concepts in a fictional setting, such as infinity, eternity, oblivion, evil, etc, not any and all things that we theorize to be abstract by definition.

Before we get to that however, the first issue is that Zamasu is not stated to be reduced to his will in the anime, just that he cast off his form/vessel. This is a statement that’s only mentioned on Toei’s website, not anywhere in the show. We know for a fact that if a body is destroyed, they’re reduced to their spirit if they’re not erased, and in certain circumstances depending on the person, they’re allowed to retain their body. His spirit was just merging with the universe.

Dragonball’s guidebooks stated Super Saiyan is a x50 multiplier, and it’s only just recently been accepted years after that was published, only due to the fact that there was sufficient evidence from the manga that supported the statement. We didn’t just accept it, same with the Toei link that explains all the ToP fighters, the bios that speak on some character’s abilities or hype statements were also in the anime.
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1- "this isn't a philosophy class" neither we are a science Class, then we shoud just reject any calculation since they are based on scientific evidence. That argument you just posted it's literally the worst "we aren't....class" guess what, most of our pages about our powers come from science, philosophy, physics, astronomy etc...just tell me that you don't want to agree on the definition of what abstract is without you giving us any concert evidence . And thoughts, emotions, wills, ideas are absract by nature, this is what the general public and the philosophy community agrees on, this isn't pulling stuff from our ass, this is literally something supported by logic,researchers, society and a bunch of philosophers.
2- you are literally arguing that statement from the writers, the company that makes the anime, and the official website of siad company isn't "reliable" you kept on bringing this up and up again even tho literally they have the highest authority, even more than toriyama himself sometimes.

3- why does reduced to his will even matter? Even if he still has his body, soul, and mind it really doesn't change anything because they didn't state "he was reduced to nothing, no body, no soul, no whatsoever only his will left" they just stated "his will fused and engulfed the universe and his mind/thought flew into the sky.." blatantly stating that it literally his will, mind and thought, not body, not soul unless they stated it, infact only his will/mind/thought did this.
4- why wouldn't we accept statement that are coming from the official company , official website , official writers. You know these people are the ones who are making DBS, they have more authority than any statement in verse and outside of it.
At this point you are running in circles, you state the the statement aren't reliable even tho they came from the literal most reliable people, the writers, the company, and the official website. You state that he didn't got reduced down to his will this it wasn't his will even tho that doesn't matter, even if he still has his body, mind, soul intact it wouldn't disprove even the statement for a single bit. You kept talking about "the definition isn't right" even tho science, philosophy, writers, researchers, agree with it. You are just drailing because we explained this time and time again yet you still insist on it.
 
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You can consider thought and awareness in its purest state to be abstractions, but it's questionable whether the mind itself will function like an abstraction in all cases. For example if you use astral projection to send your mind somewhere else does it count as type 1 AE, or when you are being mind controlled are you being controlled at the abstract level? The thing about abstract ideas is that they don't exist in space or can be physically interacted with, they are recognised and propagated, like how information isn't what's written on a piece of paper or a computer screen but what's conveyed through the language. My question is whether the mind in this case is purely an aspatial abstraction
or does it exist as a sort of intangible energy or substance that can travel from place to place in the same manner as a physical object?


I do think existing as purely the mind can sometimes count as AE type 1 but there will be cases where it will be more like an intangible force that drifts from place and can be contained within objects. So it's more a case by case situation
 
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False equivalencies, quoting things that don’t exist, etc.

Invincible Authority Fallacy- “The argument supports a position by naming a respected and authoritative person, institution or organization that endorses the position. It is implied that this endorsement alone is sufficient to establish the truth of the proposition without regard to the arguments on either side.” Also appeal to authority

It doesn’t matter who says what, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The fact of the matter is what happens inside of the show is the primary source. Anything else is supplementary. Word of God can be responded to with death of the author of need be. A lot of data books for a lot of series say a lot of things, and a good portion of them are rejected because they don’t agree with the source material.

“Again the show has no Anti feats about iz not being zamasu's will”

The show not stating it wasn’t Zamasu’s will is not a sufficient or logical basis for jumping to the conclusion that the absence of a statement saying that it was not his will is proof that it his will. Again, the intention of the ability is to categorize characters who are, or who embody abstract concepts.

@Andy
It’s the latter.
 
Andytrenom said:
You can consider thought and awareness in its purest state to be abstractions, but it's questionable whether the mind itself will function like an abstraction in all cases. For example if you use astral projection to send your mind somewhere else does it count as type 1 AE, or when you are being mind controlled are you being controlled at the abstract level? The thing about abstract ideas is that they don't exist in space or can be physically interacted with, they are recognised and propagated, like how information isn't what's written on a piece of paper or a computer screen but what's conveyed through the language. My question is whether the mind in this case is purely an aspatial abstraction
or does it exist as a sort of intangible energy or substance that can travel from place to place in the same manner as a physical object?


I do think existing as purely the mind can sometimes count as AE type 1 but there will be cases where it will be more like an intangible force that drifts from place and can be contained within objects. So it's more a case by case situation
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True but in zamasu's case it isn't the mind it's his will specifically
 
Ok so currently the biggest argument against ae seems to be is the show didn't say it was zamasu's will I would some of the mods opinion on it since we have to different sources saying iz is zamasu's will
 
RisingIons said:
The show not stating it wasn’t Zamasu’s will is not a sufficient or logical basis for jumping to the conclusion that the absence of a statement saying that it was not his will is proof that it his will. Again, the intention of the ability is to categorize characters who are, or who embody abstract concepts.
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The toei timeline and others sources are stating it
 
Yeah obviously statement FROM THE PEOPLE WHO LITERALLY MAKE THE SHOW aren't reliable, THE WEBSITE, THE OFFICIAL WEBSITE THAT'S OWNED BY THE COMPANY THAT LITERALLY MAKES THE SHOW is obviously not trust worthy, we need the narrator words not the words from the people who are responsible of what the narrators says, how the even plays off. Are you actually listening to yourself right now? Statement from people that makes the show isn't reliable.
"A lot of databooks disagree with the source material " yeah, it doesn't mean we don't use them, it means that they aren't that much trust worthy enough and need a bit of other evidence considering their record.
Here you are blatantly not using statement from the highest authority because. You aren't using the literal definition of abstract because.
Andytrenom said:
You can consider thought and awareness in its purest state to be abstractions, but it's questionable whether the mind itself will function like an abstraction in all cases. For example if you use astral projection to send your mind somewhere else does it count as type 1 AE, or when you are being mind controlled are you being controlled at the abstract level? The thing about abstract ideas is that they don't exist in space or can be physically interacted with, they are recognised and propagated, like how information isn't what's written on a piece of paper or a computer screen but what's conveyed through the language. My question is whether the mind in this case is purely an aspatial abstraction
or does it exist as a sort of intangible energy or substance that can travel from place to place in the same manner as a physical object?


I do think existing as purely the mind can sometimes count as AE type 1 but there will be cases where it will be more like an intangible force that drifts from place and can be contained within objects. So it's more a case by case situation
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In this case, fused zamasu us just zamasu's will, thoughts and mind fusing with the universe and engulfing it. It was specifically stated that "his will is engulfing the universe " and that his mind/though flew into the sky and fused with it.
Fused zamasu is just zamasu's will/thoughts and mind fusing with the universe.
As for why he should have AE because thoughts, will, mind are generally accepted as absrtact. Fused zamasu is embodying zamasu's will and thoughts and he is his will and thought
 
Orange, you’re smashing your keyboard saying there’s statements from the producers when I already stated why it hardly matters. The super saiyan multiplier argument has 5 times the mention in various Dragonball productions, and wasn’t accepted until there was evidence from the manga that made those claims seem reasonable.

Awaiting further staff input.
 
RisingIons said:
Orange, you’re smashing your keyboard saying there’s statements from the producers when I already stated why it hardly matters. The super saiyan multiplier argument has 5 times the mention in various Dragonball productions, and wasn’t accepted until there was evidence from the manga that made those claims seem reasonable.

Awaiting further staff input.
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And you are smashing your keyboard because I already stated why statement from the people who are in control of what happens in every second of the anime matters more than a narrators statement.

Anyway I'll be waiting for staff opinion
 
Orange said:
And you are smashing your keyboard because I already stated why statement from the people who are in control of what happens in every second of the anime matters more than a narrators statement.

Anyway I'll be waiting for staff opinion
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Actually if their is an Inconsistency then the narrator's statment will hold more weight as it happens within the show but their are no inconsistencies in infinite zamasu's case
 
Rez said:
Actually if their is an Inconsistency then the narrator's statment will hold more weight as it happens within the show but their are no inconsistencies in infinite zamasu's case
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Actually actually.
statements from the writers, producers, animators and the official company holds mode power than aanything in verse because the same people that made such statements are the people WHO LITERALLY MAKE THE SHOW.
but I guess a narrator is more reliable than the people who are responsible for the existence of the narrator 🤨
 
Orange said:
Actually actually.
statements from the writers, producers, animators and the official company holds mode power than aanything in verse because the same people that made such statements are the people WHO LITERALLY MAKE THE SHOW.
but I guess a narrator is more reliable than the people who are responsible for the existence of the narrator 🤨
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If it isn't supported by anything then it doesn't matter where the statements come from. Stop this ad nauseum argument of yours.

Anyway, so far I'm neutral to this, though leaning on disagreeing.
 
if only that statement came from such a strong, reliable source such as the writers to clear all this bickering, sadly it only come from people who only produce, animate, publish the anime that have more authority than any other statement coming in or outside of the verse.
also the anime doesn't explain that much, that's why the statement exist, in order to clarify things so we don't start assuming stuff, but hey, statement from the literal most trust worthy people that came in order to clarify the events that's happening doesn't matter but the interpretation of the average joe does ammirite!😎
no but seriously, you are and I quote myself: blatantly not agreeing with statements from the highest authority ever, the writers because you want to and not because there is any substantial proof that supports your evidence. And yes, coming from people who make the show, the writers, producers and the company that owns the show does matter.
 
Planck69 said:
A mix of how will isn't necessary abstract as it depends on portrayal and the fact that Zamasu seems to be portrayed as an intangible mass as opposed to something fully abstract.
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The world 念 from the databook can also mean thought or idea
 
I agree with RisingIons and Andytrenom.

We cannot consider all spiritual entities in the wiki as automatically being fully abstract regardless of circumstances.

In this case Zamasu was clearly portrayed as the physical universe in his ascended state, not as anything more than that.

Also, I repeatedly told Orange that he is not allowed to comment here, as he does not seem stable enough, and his analyses are not of sufficiently high quality. Going to other staff members afterwards as a loophole is not acceptable.
 
Even if we ignore the will part Zamasu became space time of the universe and a space time continuum isn't exactly physical and also this doesn't look Physical to me but whatever if the staff disagrees then this thread is just a waste of time
 
How would space-time simultaneously be will? That makes no sense unless you somehow think he became an abstract universe.
 
He never completely merged with it either, he was attempting completion though. Also his sky face could fire ki blasts, which was the same color as his energy which seems to be the basis of his being.

Thumbnail.
 
Zeno erasing zamasu

The Second pic is from present timeline the first is from future where zamasu became one with the universe
 
Ah whatever the only thing that this thread will accomplish is removal of abstract existence from jjk characters so let's get that over with
 
Antvasima said:
I agree with RisingIons and Andytrenom.

We cannot consider all spiritual entities in the wiki as automatically being fully abstract regardless of circumstances.

In this case Zamasu was clearly portrayed as the physical universe in his ascended state, not as anything more than that.

Also, I repeatedly told Orange that he is not allowed to comment here, as he does not seem stable enough, and his analyses are not of sufficiently high quality. Going to other staff members afterwards as a loophole is not acceptable.
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No Ant, we can't ignore definitions just because "it's fiction" or "it's too encompassing/generalized". This is stuff that even children know, mind you.

We aren't philosophy wiki ,yet we want to decide what counts as " Abstract" or not? Don't you see the hypocrisy, incoherence in this argument? Thats literally saying "I'm not qualified to decide what is wrong or right,but I'll choose wrong despite people who are qualified and have done tons of studies and researchs saying that the correct answer is right".

Anyways I'll wait for more input from staff
 
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Antvasima said:
I agree with RisingIons and Andytrenom.

We cannot consider all spiritual entities in the wiki as automatically being fully abstract regardless of circumstances.

In this case Zamasu was clearly portrayed as the physical universe in his ascended state, not as anything more than that.

Also, I repeatedly told Orange that he is not allowed to comment here, as he does not seem stable enough, and his analyses are not of sufficiently high quality. Going to other staff members afterwards as a loophole is not acceptable.
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1. Infinite Zamasu is not event spiritual, it is already stated that it was his will by Toei Timeline and Databook, by definition Will, Thought, Desire is abstract by nature. And even in the show Gowasu and any other character doesn't even mention IZ is Zamasu's soul either, so no anti-statement come directly from the show itself.

2. About physical aspect, nothing on this wiki even mention that AE being can't have physical avatar or body, if their core is AE, then they are AE. If we goes by definition of AE can't have physical vessel, state or avatar then i think we should also remove AE rating from most of AE character on this wiki.

3. About Orange, yes he should not comment too many times like that, and his attitude to not good, he should calm himself down. But at the same time Risinglons also comment many times, and i don't see any word from you for him. So let me get this straight and brutal, you purposely allow people who have same opinion with you freely express their opinion, but only allow people who defend AE Infinite Zamasu to comment one time, and by extention, possibly delete their comment. I don't think it is a good example of being impartial.
RisingIons said:
He never completely merged with it either, he was attempting completion though. Also his sky face could fire ki blasts, which was the same color as his energy which seems to be the basis of his being.

Thumbnail.
Click to expand...

I acknowledge and respect your argument, but it is flawed
1. It have been shown that he already start breaching to the past which actually is a different timeline, which mean he already complete merging with atleast Universe 7 before start breaching through the rift connect to the "past" Universe 7.

2. And shot ki/energy blast is not a debunk either, no rule stated AE being can't fight or shot energy blast, they can well fight back themself, or created physical avatar to fight. If being AE can't fight, i suggest we remove most AE rating from other AE character. And color mean nothing in this case as it is just for aesthetics purpose, artist/designer/animator could colored his energy blast in whatever color they want

And to everyone against AE IZ, flowery language or Databook, Toei Timeline is not reliable, can't use, etc...it s not a proper debunk, it is a poor attemp to disregard what was present in this CRT. We should have a better debate, not flowery there, unreliable here, etc....Thank everyone
 
RisingIons said:
Why do you all keep getting permission just to keep spouting the same nonsense that was already addressed several times? There’s literally nothing in any of your arguments that wasn’t countered. You just keep repeating yourselves and arguing from special pleading.

And you’re not owed an explanation on why certain people can comment especially when you keep violating privileges that have long since been taken away from you. This thread is probably going to end up closed sooner than later.
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No disrespect but that’s literally what you’ve been doing. You’ve constantly brought up the “anime didn’t show this” argument which is irrelevant in almost all cases when there’s official statements. The burden of proof is on you and everyone who disagrees with the official statement. It’s not “wELl I tHink iT mEans tHis gEoRGe..” We stay consistent with what is stated and our own standards.

If it’s his will as stated, by two official sources then it’s his will which counts as an abstract.

If it’s his mind, which might have some evidence in the show, but it’s clear as day that mind is not being used in place of brain, as Zamasu has no physical body, but rather thought which also is an abstract.

If it’s his soul, soul is not shown anywhere or mentioned anywhere in any official statements or guide but rather a deduction from the assumption of flowery language, then you have to prove it’s a soul with your lack of evidence and why your own personal opinion has any weight to this argument whatsoever.

sorry no permission but I’ve been reading the arguments and reading both the threads. So I apologize for my intrusive behavior but this was getting completely way from the points being made from the AE agreers

I also would like to ask the Staff to be completely unbiased here and weigh up the evidence provided against the standard that the Wiki accepted and not change said standard because of personal bias or opinion since the standard falls in line with what’s factually accepted as an abstract.
 
I continue to maintain that whether or not Zamasu's spirit was called his will or not, it is still a spirit, and it would set a terrible precedent to automatically give every spiritual entity in the wiki, including ghosts, abstract existence if we allow this. That is a far more important issue than if Zamasu himself gets a minor ability addition, which some of you seem to obsess about.

Zamasu was also clearly portrayed to have a physical form that could be attacked via force blasts in the story, if said force expansion was large and powerful enough.

Also, I am personally fine with if a few regular members with suffiently high-quality arguments comment here, but they should do so sparsely, as we want to avoid the extreme spam of the last thread, and focus on getting our staff to comment here.
 
 
I continue to maintain that whether or not Zamasu's spirit was called his will or not, it is still a spirit, and it would set a terrible precedent to automatically give every spiritual entity in the wiki, including ghosts, abstract existence if we allow this. That is a far more important issue than if Zamasu himself gets a minor ability addition, which some of you seem to obsess about.
Click to expand...

This seems like a good point to me.
 
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