About Speed Blitz

[Jasonsith]

Yes, I know this is controversial but this is related to the reputation of VSBW and the benefit of all members engaging in discussions.


While the current standard of one-shot by AP is a rebuttable value of 7.5 times AP over durability (as suggested here), there is no such standard (not even a guideline) on which ratio is applied for speed blitz.

While applying the same ratio of 7.5 may seem fine, some may say a stricter speed ratio or a looser speed ratio. (The Black Panther vs Batma ratio says BP has Mach 6049.563 over Bm's Mach 114.290 (by scaling from Katana) - making BP ~52.93 times faster than Bm so clearly BP is speed blitzing Bm.)

Making every match speed equalised means making every speedsters "born with speed" handicapped while characters with speed boosts blitzing others, resulting in an authenticity loss in verdicts.


Clarifying the threshold (even a rebuttable one) may reduce the over-reliance of speed equalisation, richen the varieties of versus matchups, and increase authenticity of versus debate qualities. Some may have the same feeling as I do on missing matches where not all matches are speed equalised.

(You may just say 7.5 is good or 15 is good but at least I want to hear your rationale.)

(For matches like BP vs Bm speed should still be equalised else it will result into a stomp/spite match more often than not.)

 

[Endless_Astrograph_Sorcerer]

Aight, so to be clear with respect to my thoughts on speed equalization here's a quote of mine from another thread on the topic:

"...so long as the speed is finite, I think if you are going to have a SE battle, you should be required to list the speeds of the characters in question with the degree of specificity indicated on the profile, whether this includes their own speed feats/statements or speeds they scale to. Not a super long explanation or anything just the raw numbers and where they scale relative to them (slightly above, far above, etc...) if applicable."

It's been my position for a while now that whether a battle is truly a blitz or not should be determined by the debaters in the versus threads themselves. If a number is to be chosen, it should be a rule of thumb not a hardline policy.

The whole point of applying this concept is that it's important to be able to recognize stomps (or sometimes forced inconclusives) caused by one combatant being unable to fight the opponent due to being unable to perceive them and their actions.

The problem is that there are so many variables that affect whether or not a large speed gap will be a real issue. Does the slower character have precog? Perhaps a large durability vs AP advantage and showings being able to activate abilities, attacks with a large AoE while being bombarded with omnidirectional attacks? What if the slower character actually has feats fighting with all of their senses disabled? Reactive evolution and regen the faster character will struggle to deal with? Perception manip, passive or otherwise? Invisibility? Time stop/slow? Attack reflection? What if the slower character is an extremely skilled fighter who can fly and the much faster character is limited to jumping from structure to structure trying to stay in proper range to land attacks, maybe said faster character has dura such that being baited into falling off a skyscraper would be an actual problem? Teleportation and the ability to set traps? There could really be any number of things and the possibilities increase even more when you consider potentially adjusting the distance between the characters at the start of the battle.

None of this gets taken into account when the immediate impulse is to declare a speed blitz when there is extremely rarely an affirmative case made sans citing the ratio. A hard cap stifles debate; that, in itself, is bad but to make matters worse, it further encourages defaulting to speed equalization which, when unnecessary, is an oversimplification of the match that removes a factor which could change its dynamics and make it more interesting. This should go without saying but it also inherently makes the match less representative of the characters' showings.

All in all, a hard cap is bad policy, speed equalization is a necessary evil, and common sense dictates that quintillions FTL vs Hypersonic won't work; let the debaters sort out the rest and prove whether the slower character can or cannot overcome the speed gap. Once again, there are way too many variables for a hard cap to be reasonable and not for nothing but even the concept of having one, to me, has always reeked of 'a solution in search of a problem.'

 

[Jasonsith]

I can understand that in general quintillions FTL vs Hypersonic is too much a speed blitz to be "added as a notable match" and I know what "notable matches" in this community mean (in other versus communities, may have concluded as a "win by speed blitz the end").

I also understand a hard cap on speed blitz is a bad policy. That's why even the current AP stomp ratio of 7.5 is a rebuttable ratio (as quoted, this value "is only an approximation, and the actual gap can be higher or lower depending on certain factors").

But ultimately no two characters are equal except they are identical characters.


And may I ask the followings:

1. Continues from here and here. I actually agree that if one is going to have a SE battle, one should be required to list the speeds of the characters in question with the degree of specificity indicated on the profile, whether this includes their own speed feats/statements or speeds they scale to. Best to state whether speed amps are restricted in which sense.

2. Could we actually start to make Categories to tier up speeds for characters and moves? We have done so for attack potency so I believe it's about time for speed as well.

3. Is even 10 to 12 times speed advantage speed blitzing? (assume the "slower" reacting guy has 2x speed amp and summons with AP plus speed equal to his own body)