About Makima's downgrade.

[EinelRendezvous]

Regarding about the latest downgrade revision for Makima, I have seen it and I guess there's a misconception about it. Indeed the climax battle of Makima and the Gun Devil was offscreen, but that doesn't mean Makima wasn't comparable to him at that time. So today, I will explain about the main scaling from Makima, Gun Devil, and Denji.

Previously, the reason for Makima's speed was downgraded was because:
1. Makima's fight with Gun Devil was not shown explicitly and she was killed in the first part.
2. In the final chapter Makima is comparable to Denji.

The counter argument for that:
1. Makima should have been categorized as comparable to Gun Devil. Makima, who died in the first part could not be categorized as Anti-Feats, Makima was intentionally killed and the attack from Gun Devil did not make Makima budge. From the start Makima had been waiting for Gun Devil also at that time Makima was preparing her technique, that's why I said She was intentionally want to be killed because she was preparing her technique and she is immortal. Makima's expression was still smiling arrogantly even after getting killed. To assume Makima at the time had inferior speed was absurd. In the last part after the technique is active it is shown that Gun Devil reacts to Makima's attack and faces upwards. We better assume that Makima's attack has an attack speed that is comparable to or faster than the Gun Devil because in the end Makima has defeated him. If we assume that Gun Devil doesn't attack Makima again after killing her for the first time and letting Makima to killing him it also doesn't make sense because Gun Devil has a mission to kill Makima from existence. Just because the battle was offscreen doesn't mean she's not comparable.

2. Denji should also be scaled over by the Gun Devil because Denji also defeated the Gun Devil in a Gun Fiend form. Which is recognized by Makima when she fought him, the Gun Devil managed to escape and took Aki's body instead. It is common to assume that Gun Devil becomes weaker, but since the difference is not clearly stated, the comparison should be at a safe level that is comparable. And since Denji ended killing him before even evolving into a Hell Chainsawman form then I think he should be at the same level.

3. Then the last part. Makima and Denji have a speed that is comparable to the Gun Devil (Gun Fiend). Isn't it safe if we assume at the end of the part when they are fighting they are almost equal, rather than consider Denji's speed is still at subsonic it's more makes sense to upgrade him. Denji's battle with Gun Fiend also shows that Denji is capable to react at the Gun Fiend's bullet and rescuing Power before she get shot.

Conclusion.
1. Makima should be comparable to the Gun Devil's speed since Her technique capable to defeated the Gun Devil which where the Gun Devil had react it.
2. Denji at the maximum also need to considered that he was comparable to Gun-Fiend where Gun-Fiend is the Gun Devil.

Thanks.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

I agree

 

[EinelRendezvous]

I agree

Thanks.

 

[Fixxed]

1 .Points one seem's good, but is totally Headcanon, proof it if makima can Dodge gun devil attack

2.proof it if gun fiend have same speed like gun devil

 

[EinelRendezvous]

1 .Points one seem's good, but is totally Headcanon, proof it if makima can Dodge gun devil attack

It's not a totally headcanon, it's a safe assumption based on how the result of the fight. Since Makima capable to defeat the Gun Devil by the ultimate technique of her that composed by many contract of devils, Makima wasn't show to dodge any bullet from him but in the last panel of their fight it can be seen that Makima's technique capable to defeating the Gun Devil where in the first time he can react into by seeing upwards but in the end he still got beated. So it's safe to assume that Makima's technique has an attack speed that faster than him or atleast comparable.

2.proof it if gun fiend have same speed like gun devil

As I said it's not clearly stated about the Gun Devil's power after being reduced to the smaller form, and since we don't really know about that, on above as I said it's safe to assume his speed is still comparable to the original one.

 

[Shyouu]

You could've post this in the makima downgrade CRT tho. I agree.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

You could've post this in the makima downgrade CRT tho. I agree.

I want to but I think it will be more good to make a new disscusion for it.

Thanks.

 

[Zencha9]

You could've post this in the makima downgrade CRT tho. I agree. (x2)

 

[Fixxed]

It's not a totally headcanon, it's a safe assumption based on how the result of the fight. Since Makima capable to defeat the Gun Devil by the ultimate technique of her that composed by many contract of devils, Makima wasn't show to dodge any bullet from him but in the last panel of their fight it can be seen that Makima's technique capable to defeating the Gun Devil where in the first time he can react into by seeing upwards but in the end he still got beated. So it's safe to assume that Makima's technique has an attack speed that faster than him or atleast comparable.

As I said it's not clearly stated about the Gun Devil's power after being reduced to the smaller form, and since we don't really know about that, on above as I said it's safe to assume his speed is still comparable to the original one.

That's still a headcanon



Makima MHS?She can't react a bullet from normal weapon, and she got killed again by power. Or are you try to put power speed in MHS, because she defeated makima??


-Denji MHS because he comparable to fiend gun.

* First you must know what's speed from fiend gund, you can't give assumption only, that's not how its work

* Two
Denji comparable to reze and makima army, but still no one makima army have Mhs speed included makima , if denji have MHS speed, he can easily outspeed/Blitz other character



From this scene, makima got killed by denji base mode because Makima lowered his guard, but in first page
She realized about denji, but still she got killed

 

[EinelRendezvous]

That's still a headcanon

It's a kind of a headcanon but not a totally one, it' a safe assumption. Unless you want to said that Makima's attack technique was inferior, which is nonsense. Saying this as a headcanon is just showing how blunder are you.

Makima MHS?She can't react a bullet from normal weapon, and she got killed again by power. Or are you try to put power speed in MHS, because she defeated makima??

Are you serious bringing that scene? If you read it wisely the reason why Makima let herself die is because she want to keep secret about her existence which in some next chapter and in the final one it's been confirmed that Makima has plan to bring utopia in this world by merging with The Chainsawman that can erase such concept.

-Denji MHS because he comparable to fiend gun.

* First you must know what's speed from fiend gund, you can't give assumption only, that's not how its work

About Fiend Gun's speed, it can be considered as unknown atleast but if you consider it can be comparable to the original one I think that's fair because The Gun Devil's portion is act as the original will.

* Two
Denji comparable to reze and makima army, but still no one makima army have Mhs speed included makima , if denji have MHS speed, he can easily outspeed/Blitz other character

What do you mean about this? You need to read it wisely thought there's statement where stated that Denji has become weaker. And about Makima's army it should be safe if we scaling them to the top tier one. About Reze's arc the chronology one is actually far before the Gun Devil arc and Denji is far weaker comparing to that. Since Denji wasn't start training with a special devil hunter one and still a newbie.

From this scene, makima got killed by denji base mode because Makima lowered his guard, but in first page
She realized about denji, but still she got killed

That's PIS. It has been confirmed that Power's blood can nullified Makima's regeneration and destroy her body internally that's why Makima could react but can't dodge it.

 

[Fixxed]

.

why Makima could react but can't dodge it.

Pretty headcanon

 

[EinelRendezvous]

Pretty headcanon

How is that a headcanon? It has been stated explicitly by Denji in the end of battle. The reason why Denji could attack Makima was because Makima lowered her guard, Denji said it. And because of Power's blood, Makima couldn't counter Denji or even regenerating. That's why it's a PIS.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

She can't react a bullet from normal weapon

Here, she was distracted and here, she did not bother to defend herself. She does not care about being shot. She's a Devil, she can resurrect.

and she got killed again by power

After she merged with Pochita and became significantly stronger by becoming a complete Devil.

First you must know what's speed from fiend gund, you can't give assumption only, that's not how its work

Yes, the Gun Devil suddenly went from Mach 312 to Subsonic after becoming a Fiend.

Denji comparable to reze and makima army, but still no one makima army have Mhs speed included makima , if denji have MHS speed, he can easily outspeed/Blitz other character

Not only was he "considerably weaker than before", he was also being bombarded with attacks from Quanxi as the zombies rushed him.

From this scene, makima got killed by denji base mode because Makima lowered his guard, but in first page
She realized about denji, but still she got killed

Not only was she explicitly stated to be off-guard, but she was stunned and confused because of Denji's sudden appearance.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

Here, she was distracted and here, she did not bother to defend herself. She does not care about being shot. She's a Devil, she can resurrect.

After she merged with Pochita and became significantly stronger by becoming a complete Devil.

Yes, the Gun Devil suddenly went from Mach 312 to Subsonic after becoming a Fiend.

Not only was he "considerably weaker than before", he was also being bombarded with attacks from Quanxi as the zombies rushed him.

Not only was she explicitly stated to be off-guard, but she was stunned and confused because of Denji's "reawakening".

Thanks for the scans, you helped me a lot. Your opinion about this CRT?

How about put Denji's speed at "unknown" likely Higher because we don't really know about the Gun Fiend's real speed and the ratio of the real power of him. And put Makima back at MHS because her technique could defeat the Gun Devil, thought we can generate this as an attack speed feats atleast.

 

[Fixxed]

I

Here, she was distracted and here, she did not bother to defend herself. She does not care about being shot. She's a Devil, she can resurrect.

After she merged with Pochita and became significantly stronger by becoming a complete Devil.

Yes, the Gun Devil suddenly went from Mach 312 to Subsonic after becoming a Fiend.

Not only was he "considerably weaker than before", he was also being bombarded with attacks from Quanxi as the zombies rushed him.

Not only was she explicitly stated to be off-guard, but she was stunned and confused because of Denji's sudden appearance.

And where i can see about makima speed in here?
&What you think about makima speed and why?.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

There is a lot of feats in the manga that have yet to be calculated, and the pages themselves are extremely outdated. The best course of action would be to work on revising the verse entirely instead of focusing on individual elements such as a character's speed.

However, while Makima ultimately did lose the battle with the Gun Devil and while the fight was off-screen, Makima and her forces did manage to force the Gun Devil into becoming a Fiend, whether this be by damaging him enough to need to inhabit a new body or some fucky wucky hax nonsense. It would be best to just scale her to whatever Denji ends up scaling to, since her only on-screen combat feats come from battling Chainsaw Man.

 

[Fixxed]

. It would be best to just scale her to whatever Denji ends up scaling to, since her only on-screen combat feats come from battling Chainsaw Man.

Very agree with this

 

[EinelRendezvous]

There is a lot of feats in the manga that have yet to be calculated, and the pages themselves are extremely outdated. The best course of action would be to work on revising the verse entirely instead of focusing on individual elements such as a character's speed.

Agreed. From what I see the characters are also lacks. There are also a good speed feats that need to be calced like Denji vs Gun Fiend where Denji could dodge his bullet and outspeed it, thought Denji troubly to keep up from it overally.

However, while Makima ultimately did lose the battle with the Gun Devil and while the fight was off-screen, Makima and her forces did manage to force the Gun Devil into becoming a Fiend, whether this be by damaging him enough to need to inhabit a new body or some fucky wucky hax nonsense. It would be best to just scale her to whatever Denji ends up scaling to, since her only on-screen combat feats come from battling Chainsaw Man.

I see. Understandable, atleast Subsonic likely Higher seems fine thought.

 

[Fixxed]

Agreed. From what I see the characters are also lacks. There are also a good speed feats that need to be calced like Denji vs Gun Fiend where Denji could dodge his bullet and outspeed it, thought Denji troubly to keep up from it overally.

I see. Understandable, atleast Subsonic likely Higher seems fine thought.

Atleast, you can trying to calc it .

 

[joshpiece]

The best course of action would be to work on revising the verse entirely instead of focusing on individual elements such as a character's speed.

This, chainsaw man profiles need revising bad.

I agree with the op but getting more calcs is the best option.

Also those might be the most cherry picked anti feats I’ve ever seen. Let’s at least try to take into account the narrative.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody write a list of all the members who participated in our previous content revision thread for this, so I can send notifications to them, please?

 

[Confluctor]

Infera28
Zencha9
OnsokunoSonic
Damage3245
Infinity_Shun

Fixxed is already here

 

[EinelRendezvous]

This, chainsaw man profiles need revising bad.

I agree with the op but getting more calcs is the best option.

Also those might be the most cherry picked anti feats I’ve ever seen. Let’s at least try to take into account the narrative.

Aight cool. I have think about it thought, giving Makima MHS attack speed because her technique capable to defeat the Gun Devil. I mean even thought Makima possibly use hax againts him, she also need a speed feats that comparable to him so that's should be applicable.

 

[Antvasima]

@Infera28 @Zencha9 @OnsokunoSonic @Damage3245 @Infinity_Shun

Are you willing to help out here please?

 

[Bernkastelll]

The op is making sense, I agree

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

After reading through the comments, i agree with the OP's reasoning.

 

[Comicgyal]

I agree with OP reasoning. A lot of people tend to ignore that Makima is essentially sandbagging throughout the series, since she can control almost any character that comes against her. The “Anti feats” like her not dodging certain attacks, are more of Makima not caring to do so, as opposed to actually being blitzed. If you can resurrect yourself nigh-endlessly while only being able to die by being conceptually erased, you’d take everything thrown at you with a grain of salt as well.

 

[Shyouu]

I already gave my input here, and I agree with the OP reasoning

 

[Fixxed]

Actually, you must be scalling feats case by case

 

[EinelRendezvous]

@Infera28 @Zencha9 @OnsokunoSonic @Damage3245 @Infinity_Shun

Are you willing to help out here please?

Okay almost everyone are agree with this thread. So can you close the thread?

The conclusion will be the same as in the post.

 

[Fixxed]

Me still disagree lol, proof it with credible feats, like calculation

Yes, the Gun Devil suddenly went from Mach 312 to Subsonic after becoming a Fiend.

 

[Fixxed]

-First of all, you must proof it If MAKIMA having MHS speed, you can't jump makima Into MHS without Any backup, Proof it with calc, Scale If She really can react Gun devil attack

There is a lot of feats in the manga that have yet to be calculated, and the pages themselves are extremely outdated. The best course of action would be to work on revising the verse entirely instead of focusing on individual elements such as a character's speed.

However, while Makima ultimately did lose the battle with the Gun Devil and while the fight was off-screen, Makima and her forces did manage to force the Gun Devil into becoming a Fiend, whether this be by damaging him enough to need to inhabit a new body or some fucky wucky hax nonsense. It would be best to just scale her to whatever Denji ends up scaling to, since her only on-screen combat feats come from battling Chainsaw Man.

The best conclusion Its this, TRY to calc It.

I agree with OP reasoning. A lot of people tend to ignore that Makima is essentially sandbagging throughout the series, since she can control almost any character that comes against her. The “Anti feats” like her not dodging certain attacks, are more of Makima not caring to do so, as opposed to actually being blitzed. If you can resurrect yourself nigh-endlessly while only being able to die by being conceptually erased, you’d take everything thrown at you with a grain of salt as well.

We are talking about React speed, you must proof it with reliable scene

The “Anti feats” like her not dodging certain attacks, are more of Makima not caring to do so, as opposed to actually being blitzed. If you can resurrect yourself nigh-endlessly while only being able to die by being conceptually erased, you’d take everything thrown at you with a grain of salt as well.

That's not changing anything, you can scale makima to Denji In chapter 95

For denji, he can't jump from Sub Sonic into MHS only with assumption, that's not how this site work, again and again you must calc it for backing your argue

 

[EinelRendezvous]

-First of all, you must proof it If MAKIMA having MHS speed, you can't jump makima Into MHS without Any backup, Proof it with calc, Scale If She really can react Gun devil attack

I think you don't get the point that we're talking about in here, the reason why Makima likely having MHS speed is because her technique the one that you see in the last panel of chapter 76. Capable to defeat the Gun Devil and make him weaker as a Fiend. By capable to do that, Makima's technique also need an attack speed feats that atleast comparable to him even thought she was using hax againts him but logically if she didn't has any speed that comparable to him so how did Makima defeat him? That's the simple one.

"Proof with calc"

Are you try to burdening the proof? The page of Makima having a battle with the Gun Devil was offscreen, the point about Makima having a MHS speed is like what I explained above.

The best conclusion Its this, TRY to calc It.

Calc what? Indeed there are many possible feats that need to be calced but in this case scaling is the proper way to chose the result. I mean, how can we calc about Makima vs The Gun Devil while the fight alone was offscreen?

We are talking about React speed, you must proof it with reliable scene

Who's talking to? As far as I follow I don't remember anyone in this thread saying about that. You're the one who make an assumption like that. Thought we had actually prove it.

That's not changing anything, you can scale makima to Denji In chapter 95

Yes, that's why in the 3rd paragraph I said it's safe to think Makima and Denji having a comparable speed because both of them could be scaled over the Gun Devil or the Fiend form one.

For denji, he can't jump from Sub Sonic into MHS only with assumption, that's not how this site work, again and again you must calc it for backing your argue

Agreed about this, but the one that you're talking about is need an explicit one. We're talking about the scaling here, it's not an impossible one to scale him over the godtier one because he was comparable to her. I know about that, but the material thing that we're talking are slightly different.

 

[Fixxed]

I think you don't get the point that we're talking about in here, the reason why Makima likely having MHS speed is because her technique the one that you see in the last panel of chapter 76. Capable to defeat the Gun Devil and make him weaker as a Fiend. By capable to do that, Makima's technique also need an attack speed feats that atleast comparable to him even thought she was using hax againts him but logically if she didn't has any speed that comparable to him so how did Makima defeat him? That's the simple one.

how can you put makima Mhs, they don't exchange attacks And The most important the battle is offscreen

Yes, that's why in the 3rd paragraph I said it's safe to think Makima and Denji having a comparable speed because both of them could be scaled over the Gun Devil or the Fiend form one.

Considering statement nullflowerbush
Gun devil only have sub Sonic speed

 

[EinelRendezvous]

how can you put makima Mhs, they don't exchange attacks And The most important the battle is offscreen

You don't understand? Are you? I mean if the result make Makima wins in the end, it means her attack will need a speed that comparable to her enemy. If not how can she defeat him in the first place? Or even hit him? It's a simple logic. Indeed we didn't see the full fight because the fight was offscreen.

Considering statement nullflowerbush
Gun devil only have sub Sonic speed

I think you mistook it. Altought after that he didn't say any further, it just an assumption about it being jumped to close to Denji's tier.

 

[Fixxed]

You don't understand? Are you? I mean if the result make Makima wins in the end, it means her attack will need a speed that comparable to her enemy. If not how can she defeat him in the first place? Or even hit him? It's a simple logic. Indeed we didn't see the full fight because the fight was offscreen.

Actually no if it makima, because she can easily getting resurrection after dead,dead, and dead

 

[EinelRendezvous]

Actually no if it makima, because she can easily getting resurrection after dead,dead, and dead

What do you mean? That assumption doesn't have a basis, altought the context that we're talking about is reffering to Makima's technique that composed by many contract of devils. Things that we're know about that battle is Makima didn't fight the Gun Devil directly. Instead she fights it using these techniques. You're headcanoning right now and all I can see is you're making another misassumption about this.

 

[Fixxed]

What do you mean? That assumption doesn't have a basis, altought the context that we're talking about is reffering to Makima's technique that composed by many contract of devils. Things that we're know about that battle is Makima didn't fight the Gun Devil directly. Instead she fights it using these techniques. You're headcanoning right now and all I can see is you're making another misassumption about this.

Same with you, we all discussed this Thread and based only with a headcanon lol.

I say, You can try to calc other character to support MHS makima&MHS denji case by case.
Although if Makima MHS and gunfiend Subsonic

Denji is comparable to gunfiend which one have SubSonic speed, and in chapter 95 makima comparable to denji which it makima having Subsonic speed atbest for now

 

[Rez]

Denji should also receive concept manipulation his profile seems quite old

 

[Rez]

And denji should also receive an regen upgrade he was able to regenerate from just an heart