Harbinger of Roaring vs Horseman of Conquest | Roaring Knight vs Makima (Deltarune vs Chainsaw Man)

[GodEarh206]

Currently there are 8 matchups in Makima profile.
2 of them have 100 m starting range
2 of them have 50 m starting range(both are Makima dubs)
1 of them has 5 m range

It depends on the situation, my friend.

 

[GodEarh206]

I have to reiterate that Makima can somehow discover the contents of someone's abilities (at least just by looking at them). It seems you're overlooking a lot of things Makima has to offer, and please, read the manga carefully before making any statements. I'm very busy replying to everyone individually.

 

[Qurbonboev]

More than likely. Though that was mainly Power and Angel. And even then Makima makes what she asks into a command and it gets forced. There's also the fact she sees CSM as superior because of everything he's done in Hell, she doesn't know Knight so she wouldn't have that issue.

On topic of making it fairer. Makima commanding Power and Angel was body puppetry, isn't(aka body was controlled, but not the mind)?

Why do you think bringing up anything proves anything? I would disagree with those too

Just to show that Makima had accepted matchups where she is forced to watch at ranges much lesser than her max effective one. And besides, there is plenty of such examples in the wiki.

 

[God_of_perversion]

I have to reiterate that Makima can somehow discover the contents of someone's abilities (at least just by looking at them). It seems you're overlooking a lot of things Makima has to offer, and please, read the manga carefully before making any statements. I'm very busy replying to everyone individually.

Wouldn't work on Asriel since all of his abilities are completely alien to csm

 

[Qurbonboev]

I have to reiterate that Makima can somehow discover the contents of someone's abilities (at least just by looking at them). It seems you're overlooking a lot of things Makima has to offer, and please, read the manga carefully before making any statements. I'm very busy replying to everyone individually.

Thanks for adding this. But it's redundant here, since:
1) Makima already has prior knowledge
2) Knight would throw everything effective she has from the start. And knowing about TK doesn't help against it.

Forgot to add that Knight has mild perception manipulation, which would somewhat disorient Makima and Minion, but in current matchup even this gives great advantage

 

[Arkenis]

On topic of making it fairer. Makima commanding Power and Angel was body puppetry, isn't(aka body was controlled, but not the mind)?

What does this gotta do with fairer?

Just to show that Makima had accepted matchups where she is forced to watch at ranges much lesser than her max effective one. And besides, there is plenty of such examples in the wiki.

Did those matches have people arguing the opponent has hundreds of meters for higher LS TK?

 

[Qurbonboev]

What does this gotta do with fairer?

I am thinking about making it so Makima would see Knight as inferior. Trying mind control for initial moment would fail due to supernatural willpower. So I was essentially asking what Makima can do afterwards?

Did those matches have people arguing the opponent has hundreds of meters for higher LS TK?

They had wincons for respective opponent that only worked under certain range, far less one that Makima pocesses

 

[Arkenis]

I am thinking about making it so Makima would see Knight as inferior. Trying mind control for initial moment would fail due to supernatural willpower. So I was essentially asking what Makima can do afterwards?

She can just make it an order. Angel tried resisting it, And Makima makes it an order instead and he gets recontrolled.

They had wincons for respective opponent that only worked under certain range, far less one that Makima pocesses

Sounds unfair. Still one's like Sukuna are understandable, he doesn't have some one shot or incap move, Makima can easily move out his range, a viable method in fighting. Which is the issue here, you give them prior knowledge but cap their starting points? Why would anyone with hundreds of km range and perception walk into a fight where they're at a range disadvantage? That just makes prior knowledge seem irrelevant.

• Sans (Undertale) Sans's Profile (Makima was given Prior Knowledge; Makima's Mid-High Regen was used; Starting distance was 5 meters; Speed was equalized; Battle took place in the Judgement Hall)

This is ridiculous. 5m? When both characters can operate within several of km?

Link one's also dumb, he's got hundreds of meters and higher with beam emitter, and he's got a host of stuff that makes range a non topic.

 

[God_of_perversion]

This is ridiculous. 5m? When both characters can operate within several of km?

The 5m is actually a nerf on Sans not Makima

 

[Arkenis]

The 5m is actually a nerf on Sans not Makima

Idc who it nerfs, I care its chosen when both can operate way outside it lol

 

[God_of_perversion]

Idc who it nerfs, I care its chosen when both can operate way outside it lol

If two characters have multiversal range should we put them multiple universes away?

 

[Qurbonboev]

She can just make it an order. Angel tried resisting it, And Makima makes it an order instead and he gets recontrolled.

It is body puppetry or mind manipulation? And what commands she usually uses first.

Which is the issue here, you give them prior knowledge but cap their starting points? Why would anyone with hundreds of km range and perception walk into a fight where they're at a range disadvantage?

Wdym range disadvantage? Makima doesn't have range disadvantage at all.

Sounds unfair

If I make range too far, there is nothing Knight can do. Current distance is already at almost maximum extent of Knight range. If you think it's fair to make range in kilometers when opponents range is only hundreds of meters, it can't be helped

 

[Arkenis]

If two characters have multiversal range should we put them multiple universes away?

Max range is 4km in SBA. If this is a genuine question then you've been reading what I'm saying wrong and should reread.

It is body puppetry or mind manipulation? And what commands she usually uses first.

Its mind hax on page. Body puppetry is direct control of the body.

Wdym range disadvantage? Makima doesn't have range disadvantage at all.

Class G TK which you argued would be thought based and activated right away. Makima can operate way outside of it, making its range useless. You put her at a range disadvantage in which the opponents attacks can easily incap her. I disagree with him instantly doing it, but its something you've argued due to prior knowledge so can't be helped much.

If I make range too far, there is nothing Knight can do. Current distance is already at almost maximum extent of Knight range. If you think it's fair to make range in kilometers when opponents range is only hundreds of meters, it can't be helped

Starting distance: The characters start as far away from each other as the highest range of the fighters is, but a maximum of 4 kilometers. For example, if one character has a range of 10 meter and the other has a range of 20 meter they start 20 meter apart. However if the range of one character is 10 meter and the range of the other is 5 kilometer, they start only 4 kilometer apart.

SBA is 4km. He can run or teleport. Makima has ranged attacks and there's no advantage from this that Knight can't overcome by just running or teleporting. Also Knight's hundreds of meters is outdated or something, there's nothing in that vid that says exact meters nor is the hallway showing hundreds of meters.

 

[Steve1775]

I vote Makima because she's cute. But in all seriousness her arguments seem more reasonable to me

 

[Qurbonboev]

Max range is 4km in SBA. If this is a genuine question then you've been reading what I'm saying wrong and should reread.

Amd if I put that range, it's stomp for the Makima.

Its mind hax on page. Body puppetry is direct control of the body.

And here goes my attempts at making match mote fair.

SBA is 4km. He can run or teleport. Makima has ranged attacks and there's no advantage from this that Knight can't overcome by just running or teleporting. Also Knight's hundreds of meters is outdated or something, there's nothing in that vid that says exact meters nor is the hallway showing hundreds of meters.

She literally can't see Makima at 4 km distance. She wouldn't be able reach her anyways, before getting smirked by more haxed summons. And her teleportation is IIRC only shown to work on short distances.
I did try to calc exact range, but it came out a bit higher than 100m, so I didn't bother. IIRC range of hundred meters without exact calcs, just gives baseline(so 100m). So right now she is at her maximum effective range.

I vote Makima because she's cute. But in all seriousness her arguments seem more reasonable to me

Counted.
And funny to see voting for her when supporter above literally argues that with current distance Knight just stomps.
Btw, I am gonna delete exact regeneration level, since it's irrelevant anyways, until someone adds that Makima can redirect soul damage.

 

[GodEarh206]

Makima already has prior knowledge

About what?

Knight would throw everything effective she has from the start. And knowing about TK doesn't help against it.

What did I say about "only knowing about TK"?

I remember you saying that Makima needed a "set-up" to activate BFR, right? It doesn't work like that, my friend. Makima can instantly "summon" the Devil Hunters needed for the sacrifice if necessary.

 

[Arkenis]

Amd if I put that range, it's stomp for the Makima.

She literally can't see Makima at 4 km distance. She wouldn't be able reach her anyways, before getting smirked by more haxed summons. And her teleportation is IIRC only shown to work on short distances.
I did try to calc exact range, but it came out a bit higher than 100m, so I didn't bother. IIRC range of hundred meters without exact calcs, just gives baseline(so 100m). So right now she is at her maximum effective range.

If it's a stomp due to range and if you handicap the range Makima would be in even though you give her knowledge of Knight's abilities, doesn't that sound silly?

Knowledge of the other character/verse: The characters know the direction their opponent(s) start in. And I guess, that should be on page, cuz the vid is a long hallway without any indication of range besides long.

 

[Qurbonboev]

About what?

About every Knight ability.

I remember you saying that Makima needed a "set-up" to activate BFR, right? It doesn't work like that, my friend. Makima can instantly "summon" the Devil Hunters needed for the sacrifice if necessary.

I reread all three times when contracts with hell devil were made (Santa Claus, Anti-Makima Squad, Makima herself during fight with Darkness). Each time it was made, sacrifice needed to proclaim contract, things like "Hell Devil. Kill Makima and cast her into hell" and (used by Makima herself) "Hell Devil. I offer you all of myself. So please... send us back". So there is some setup needed. Which is unfortunate for Makima, cus most Devil hunters are blitz tier slower than Makima(and subsequently Knight).

If it's a stomp due to range and if you handicap the range Makima would be in even though you give her knowledge of Knight's abilities, doesn't that sound silly?

I don't think it's stomp under current conditions. She still has many dangerous minions that could pose a threat, it just Knight would kill her faster than she can pull off her wincon
As per SBA, match isn't stomp if:
"Both characters have several methods of winning. However, one character can reliably use/activate their winning move(s) first."

 

[GodEarh206]

I reread all three times when contracts with hell devil were made (Santa Claus, Anti-Makima Squad, Makima herself during fight with Darkness). Each time it was made, sacrifice needed to proclaim contract, things like "Hell Devil. Kill Makima and cast her into hell" and (used by Makima herself) "Hell Devil. I offer you all of myself. So please... send us back". So there is some setup needed. Which is unfortunate for Makima, cus most Devil hunters are blitz tier slower than Makima(and subsequently Knight).

Bro, wtf? In Knight's case, she just needs to sacrifice the Devil Hunters to send Knight to Hell. How are the things you described a problem? In Santa Claus's case, it requires sacrificing Santa and the children, and in Doll Devil, Makima just needs to transmit her voice (or something similar) to activate the Contract. In Devil Hunter's case, it's self-sacrifice to send Makima to Hell. And it seems like your "set-up" here means "opening your mouth to say the content" or something?

It should also be mentioned that, regardless of whether her subordinates are "useless" or affected by Blitz or whatever else you can think of, it's still enough time for Makima to use things like Cosmo and Hell Devil (Because, as mentioned above, once you have Devil Hunter, the only thing you need to do is "state" the Contract details and send the opponent to Hell).

 

[GodEarh206]

Also, just put me in Makima side

 

[Breadbear83]

Amd if I put that range, it's stomp for the Makima.


And here goes my attempts at making match mote fair.


She literally can't see Makima at 4 km distance. She wouldn't be able reach her anyways, before getting smirked by more haxed summons. And her teleportation is IIRC only shown to work on short distances.
I did try to calc exact range, but it came out a bit higher than 100m, so I didn't bother. IIRC range of hundred meters without exact calcs, just gives baseline(so 100m). So right now she is at her maximum effective range.

Counted.
And funny to see voting for her when supporter above literally argues that with current distance Knight just stomps.
Btw, I am gonna delete exact regeneration level, since it's irrelevant anyways, until someone adds that Makima can redirect soul damage.

her teleportation isnt close range, she literally teleported to hell (another world) throught prinz and not neccesarily had to be nearby rezee when using rats to teleport there, she can do it by using lesser lifeforms like rats or even just people she believes inferior as her or she has controlled like prinz, in the darkworld there would be even a few darkners like for example the rats from the cyberworld who she could definitively use

 

[Qurbonboev]

And it seems like your "set-up" here means "opening your mouth to say the content" or something?

No shit. Opening your mouth and proclaiming content of contract is setup and it spends quite some time. And this amount of time is too much if your opponent play is thought based abilities.

It should also be mentioned that, regardless of whether her subordinates are "useless" or affected by Blitz or whatever else you can think of, it's still enough time for Makima to use things like Cosmo and Hell Devil (Because, as mentioned above, once you have Devil Hunter, the only thing you need to do is "state" the Contract details and send the opponent to Hell).

Again, unless Makima can amp speed of her minions(which if exists, should be stated in profile), most of them are remain massively slower than Knight, so they are getting blitzed. You won't be going anything useful, if you are getting blitzed.
It would take less than subjective second for Makima to eventually getting hit, and much less for most of her minions.

her teleportation isnt close range

I was talking about Knight Teleportation.

 

[Qurbonboev]

To reiterate main points:
Knight just suck everything, and kill everything with danmaku(mostly swords), and they will oneshot every minion they came into contact with. Most minions are massively slower than Makima(and Knight) and would be done like this(if you prefer other examples, look up what Pochita does against most devils)

 

[Arkenis]

I don't think it's stomp under current conditions. She still has many dangerous minions that could pose a threat, it just Knight would kill her faster than she can pull off her wincon
As per SBA, match isn't stomp if:
"Both characters have several methods of winning. However, one character can reliably use/activate their winning move(s) first."

Yeah I know it says that, but its also outdated. If anyone wanted, they can go create a match where it's 1km and now Makima wins. A match up being not a stomp because you've made the specifics favor one side more than the neutral SBA presented doesn't mean it should be done that way. It's just a disingenuous presentation of the characters and how they fight when you're actively giving them knowledge of each other but also limiting how they'd reasonably fight by starting them out in a certain range. Makima sometimes does fight at her range, same way Knight does too.

 

[God_of_perversion]

Yeah I know it says that, but its also outdated. If anyone wanted, they can go create a match where it's 1km and now Makima wins. A match up being not a stomp because you've made the specifics favor one side more than the neutral SBA presented doesn't mean it should be done that way. It's just a disingenuous presentation of the characters and how they fight when you're actively giving them knowledge of each other but also limiting how they'd reasonably fight by starting them out in a certain range. Makima sometimes does fight at her range, same way Knight does too.

The knight always fights at close range what are yiu talking about

 

[God_of_perversion]

The knight always fights at close range what are yiu talking about

Besides when he already is at long distances of course

 

[Arkenis]

Makima sometimes does fight at her range, same way Knight does too.

 

[God_of_perversion]

I did NOT see that some

 

[Qurbonboev]

Yeah I know it says that, but its also outdated

1. Is it truly outdated? If this so, I will ask this matchup to be closed

If anyone wanted, they can go create a match where it's 1km and now Makima wins.

2. It would obviously be stomp and wouldn't be added to profiles. Looking at rules, it doesn't seems that current matchup qualifies for stomp. But if you disagree with this not being a stomp, refer to the above

 

[SnakesCity]

Yeah I know it says that, but its also outdated. If anyone wanted, they can go create a match where it's 1km and now Makima wins. A match up being not a stomp because you've made the specifics favor one side more than the neutral SBA presented doesn't mean it should be done that way. It's just a disingenuous presentation of the characters and how they fight when you're actively giving them knowledge of each other but also limiting how they'd reasonably fight by starting them out in a certain range. Makima sometimes does fight at her range, same way Knight does too.

Im not too interested in the MU but anytime i see you around i always think about this so i HAVE to ask, do you pronounce the kenis part of your name like penis or is it more like ken-is.

 

[Arkenis]

1. Is it truly outdated? If this so, I will ask this matchup to be closed

Outdated as in no one's ever dropped a crt to change anything. It's last change was 2023.

2. It would obviously be stomp and wouldn't be added to profiles. Looking at rules, it doesn't seems that current matchup qualifies for stomp. But if you disagree with this not being a stomp, refer to the above

Just didn't understand my point or don't care ig. You made a match then set the rules to favor Knight because he otherwise loses at SBA range. That is a disingenuous forming of the match when we already have to equalize speed for this to even be a match since Knight's FTL. Find matches where you don't have to twist the characters in such a way.

 

[GodEarh206]

No shit. Opening your mouth and proclaiming content of contract is setup and it spends quite some time. And this amount of time is too much if your opponent play is thought based abilities.

Makima summons the corpses she killed in order to utilize their power. I suspect that Makima herself activated the Hax, and at least the corpses are being controlled by Makima..

 

[Qurbonboev]

You made a match then set the rules to favor Knight because he otherwise loses at SBA range

No shit, Knight gets stomped with SBA range. Why would I bother to make stomp match?

Find matches where you don't have to twist the characters in such a way

If you think putting range at anything other than SBA is twisting, it can't be helped at all. And it's hilarious to call it twisting character, when she was forced to be close to enemies several times.

Outdated as in no one's ever dropped a crt to change anything. It's last change was 2023.

It doesn't being changed recently doesn't mean it's outdated, bruh.

Makima summons the corpses she killed in order to utilize their power. I suspect that Makima herself activated the Hax, and at least the corpses are being controlled by Makima..

She can directly control minions to proclaim contract, yes. But even if she amps speed of minions to hers during this time(there is no proof she does), saying contract is still slower than thought based abilities.

Regardless, I lost my desire to continue this matchup, seeing such disingenuous arguments from supporters. So I will just ask mods to close this thread, siting @Arkenis justifications, and see if they accept it.

 

[Arkenis]

No shit, Knight gets stomped with SBA range. Why would I bother to make stomp match?

IDT its a stomp, same way you think this:

I don't think it's stomp under current conditions. She still has many dangerous minions that could pose a threat, it just Knight would kill her faster than she can pull off her wincon

Makima uses certain abilities before Knight can reasonably stop her and gets the win con. And Knight has teleportation, its possible she can avoid some win cons as well.

If you think putting range at anything other than SBA is twisting, it can't be helped at all. And it's hilarious to call it twisting character, when she was forced to be close to enemies several times.

In this match it is. You are because Makima can fight at range and she has several times.

It doesn't being changed recently doesn't mean it's outdated, bruh.

Most pages are outdated to some degree. Just takes time to realize there's a real problem with one until it gets expressed greatly that something's being abused.

 

[Random-Helper323]

This thread was requested to be locked. Does the majority agree that it's a stomp?

 

[Qurbonboev]

Makima uses certain abilities before Knight can reasonably stop her and gets the win con. And Knight has teleportation, its possible she can avoid some win cons as well.

Putting range as SBA(4 km) is stomp. Idk how you imagine Knight Teleportation worms, but it's not something very impressive, check the profile for examples. Long before Knight manages to close distance, Makima would already do teleportation several times over, and there would be no way for Knight to locate her(she has only enhanced hearing and night vision, nothing crazy). What is the point of Knight being able to dodge some minions, if ultimately she can't find Makima, and eventually dies to some haxxed demons(like hell devil, stone devil, sloppy ******* devil).
Under current range, Makima at least have a chance of using more dangerous minions to kill her faster than TK + Danmaku kills Makima instead. I am not gonna lie, it's slim chance since both her TK and Danmaku are thought based. But it's a chance, unlike SBA.

In this match it is. You are because Makima can fight at range and she has several times.

She fought both in close range, and from afar in the manga. If you disagree, put staff CRT which makes every range used other than SBA invalid if one of the opponents can and sometimes did fought at greater range.

Most pages are outdated to some degree. Just takes time to realize there's a real problem with one until it gets expressed greatly that something's being abused.

I will ask staff opinion on this.

This thread was requested to be locked. Does the majority agree that it's a stomp?

I want your clarification on this matchup. Arkenis thinks that current range(100m) makes matchup is stomp, and its twisting character, but SBA range isn't a stomp. I think that SBA range is a stomp, but current range is just very decisive win. I want your opinion on this.
If you think it's mismatch(If Makima starts inside range of a Knight, she dies. If not, Makima always teleports away and wins), feel free to close matchup

 

[Random-Helper323]

If range guarantees that it becomes one-sided one way or the other, that's a problem.

 

[Qurbonboev]

If range guarantees that it becomes one-sided one way or the other, that's a problem.

If it's mismatch, then close this thread

 

[Random-Helper323]

If it's mismatch, then close this thread

What does everyone think? What can each one do if the other gets their optimal range?

 

[Arkenis]

If Makima gets optimal range it places Knight's abilities outside of his range. This doesn't now mean Makima auto wins, it just means Knight has to travel closer, meanwhile Makima doesn't get hit with Class G TK, and his Danmaku won't auto kill her minions, as his AP is city level so anything Makima has could be killed and overwhelmed by Danmaku with dozens to hundreds of projectiles. Makima's perception and clairvoyance becomes useable in this, now she can stay back and see how everything goes. Use her hax like Bang or sending her devils to various areas aka a plan are more than viable. She'll see how strong and overwhelming Knight is, and once he's gotten in range and Knight can do it through flight or teleporting around. But once he's in range, Makima will decide to try using Cosmo, Hell Devil, her death ritual, dollify her through a touch with Santa Claus. There's probably something else I'm missing but this is all more viable due to range as she gets more time to think of something. And it doesn't at all make it a stomp, Knight still has regen negging hax, soul attacks which Makima doesn't resist, and Knight's easily able to win in close combat through ap.