Harbinger of Roaring vs Horseman of Conquest | Roaring Knight vs Makima (Deltarune vs Chainsaw Man)

[Arkenis]

Arkenis hold my hand and point me to where you got that from by copy pasting the specific ability here.

I'm going by the site standards for one's physiology in regards to souls.

Under normal circumstances, most characters are assumed to have a soul by default unless the original medium specifies otherwise. Those who do not possess soul are usually considered to be immune to most applications of Soul Manipulation.

That is standard physiology on site.

 

[God_of_perversion]

I'm going by the site standards for one's physiology in regards to souls.

That is standard physiology on site.

And all metaphysical aspects are also assumed to define a person by default so by your logic Makima would be able to redirect metaphysical attacks too

 

[Qurbonboev]

Knight's hax let him ignore distance and could attack her soul, since people think she can't bypass the soul stuff I'd say that's rather unfair.

Lightner spatial hax is treated on site as something that allows them to spawn attacks on top of the opponents. But to be able to do this, they need to be close enough to target first. Which is why Knight range is:
"Range: Tens of Meters (As a Lightner, its attacks can reach great distances without physically touching the opponent); Hundreds of Meters with Magic (Shown here when it attacked the Delta Warriors from a big distance in Chapter 4)"

 

[Catbowtie]

I'm going by the site standards for one's physiology in regards to souls.

That is standard physiology on site.

How does this prove that Makima’s contract would register Soul attacks as “attacks”?

 

[Arkenis]

And all metaphysical aspects are also assumed to define a person by default so by your logic Makima would be able to redirect metaphysical attacks too

No it isn't LMAO. We have verses who have widely different shit going on, I would never assume one verse's metaphysical aspects apply to another unless demonstrated.

"Range: Tens of Meters (As a Lightner, its attacks can reach great distances without physically touching the opponent); Hundreds of Meters with Magic (Shown here when it attacked the Delta Warriors from a big distance in Chapter 4)"

Ah okay, then I'd say 100 meters is fine. He can end up closing the distance after he's killed everything she might throw.

How does this prove that Makima’s contract would register Soul attacks as “attacks”?

Souls part of standard physiology on site -> Makima's standard physiology is "mind, body and soul" on site -> Attacks against her get put onto others

"Her" is never just "her body". People don't speak that way unless context implies it or they outright "your body". So unless there's something I'm missing from CSM that means its just her body, there's no reason for it not to be her body, mind and soul.

 

[Catbowtie]

Souls part of standard physiology on site -> Makima's standard physiology is "mind, body and soul" on site -> Attacks against her get put onto others

"Her" is never just "her body". People don't speak that way unless context implies it or they outright "your body". So unless there's something I'm missing from CSM that means its just her body, there's no reason for it not to be her body, mind and soul.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Snip

Would you guys stop arguing about it, and talk about it in verse page and CRTs, if I just put Makima regeneration at high-mid? She would still get oneshot by swords, that are much bigger than her and have more than 10000x AP/Dura difference against her, so it wouldn't change matchup at all

 

[Arkenis]

Would you guys stop arguing about it, and talk about it in verse page and CRTs, if I just put Makima regeneration at high-mid? She would still get oneshot by swords, that are much bigger than her and have more than 10000x AP/Dura difference against her, so it wouldn't change matchup at all

Yeah I don't much care for it.

 

[God_of_perversion]

No it isn't LMAO. We have verses who have widely different shit going on, I would never assume one verse's metaphysical aspects apply to another unless demonstrated

Brohemian raphosody do you genuinely think characters on the wiki just have random immunities to metaphysical aspects? All metaphysical aspects are acepted on this wiki as being building blooks of every characters existence unless show otherwise

 

[God_of_perversion]

By your logic Bob the builder would have immunity to plot info2 because info2 never apperead on his verse

 

[Qurbonboev]

Yeah I don't much care for it.

Added distance and put exact regeneration level used.
Btw, IIRC people with very strong emotions can resists Makima power for some time. If wer removed Makima knowledge about status of Knight, would Knight be able to resist her mind control for some time via supernatural willpower?

 

[Arkenis]

Added distance and put exact regeneration level used.
Btw, IIRC people with very strong emotions can resists Makima power for some time. If wer removed Makima knowledge about status of Knight, would Knight be able to resist her mind control for some time via supernatural willpower?

More than likely. Though that was mainly Power and Angel. And even then Makima makes what she asks into a command and it gets forced. There's also the fact she sees CSM as superior because of everything he's done in Hell, she doesn't know Knight so she wouldn't have that issue.

 

[God_of_perversion]

More than likely. Though that was mainly Power and Angel. And even then Makima makes what she asks into a command and it gets forced. There's also the fact she sees CSM as superior because of everything he's done in Hell, she doesn't know Knight so she wouldn't have that issue.

Thats already covered by the OP

 

[Arkenis]

Thats already covered by the OP

He's asking what if he removes her knowledge

 

[Qurbonboev]

So to recap, most summons are getting blitzed, biohax wouldn't work because of inorganic physiology, Bang wouldn't work because of LS and AP advantage + Knight having True Flight. Unless Makima manages to BFR Knight to Hell, or escape battlefield and continue the fight from great distance (both of which would guarantee her victory, but would be very difficult to pull off), Knight wins.
Do people want to start voting or no?

 

[Breadbear83]

So to recap, most summons are getting blitzed, biohax wouldn't work because of inorganic physiology, Bang wouldn't work because of LS and AP advantage + Knight having True Flight. Unless Makima manages to BFR Knight to Hell, or escape battlefield and continue the fight from great distance (both of which would guarantee her victory, but would be very difficult to pull off), Knight wins.
Do people want to start voting or no?

You didn't specify it, but I guess with speed equalization you was implying that the knight is capped at mákima's combat speed and reactions of Mach 81.48 (which Makima has from scaling from Katana Man sword draw dash) and that she still does have her attack speed of Mach 4600 (57x times as you said) above the knight attack speed

A few of her hybrid devil's cale from Katana man sword draw dash too, at least quanxi who blitzed him even in base, and even more the hell devil which as a more feared devil would be way above katana man and quanxi in any way, and also Angels 1000 years spear who Makima said that a weakened Pochita maybe could dodge (having doubts on if he could) and Pochitas was shown to clearly having much faster reaction speed than Makima, like when he killed her for the first time in the control devil arc, even while weakened in the graveyard in chapter 94 still beating all the hybrids quickly

So last clarification for speed, does some of her summons that may be faster in combat speed than her be above Makima and knight in combat speed? Cuz putting a cap for the faster ones doesn't seems fair, as it's only applying speed equalization to a few chosen summons like hell devil

So a few of her summons MAY be faster than makima, and so the knight, while other summons are much slower at only supersonic speeds or else all her summons are speed equalized to Mákima's and the knight's combat speed

Also if mákima's bangs wouldnt do a lot of damage to the knight then it seems kind a pointless of they being faster than the equalized speed

 

[Breadbear83]

You didn't specify it, but I guess with speed equalization you was implying that the knight is capped at mákima's combat speed and reactions of Mach 81.48 (which Makima has from scaling from Katana Man sword draw dash) and that she still does have her attack speed of Mach 4600 (57x times as you said) above the knight attack speed

A few of her hybrid devil's cale from Katana man sword draw dash too, at least quanxi who blitzed him even in base, and even more the hell devil which as a more feared devil would be way above katana man and quanxi in any way, and also Angels 1000 years spear who Makima said that a weakened Pochita maybe could dodge (having doubts on if he could) and Pochitas was shown to clearly having much faster reaction speed than Makima, like when he killed her for the first time in the control devil arc, even while weakened in the graveyard in chapter 94 still beating all the hybrids quickly

So last clarification for speed, does some of her summons that may be faster in combat speed than her be above Makima and knight in combat speed? Cuz putting a cap for the faster ones doesn't seems fair, as it's only applying speed equalization to a few chosen summons like hell devil

So a few of her summons MAY be faster than makima, and so the knight, while other summons are much slower at only supersonic speeds or else all her summons are speed equalized to Mákima's and the knight's combat speed

Also if mákima's bangs wouldnt do a lot of damage to the knight then it seems kind a pointless of they being faster than the equalized speed

Btw also as you specified, the knights doesnt know the specific abilities of Mákima's minions, so they aren't selectively insta killing the hell devil as soon as they see him, as they could be In a scenario of being distracted by the Hybrid devil's who have more similar speed to makima and so the knight, or other devil's trying to make attacks on the knight that end up not working

 

[Qurbonboev]

So last clarification for speed, does some of her summons that may be faster in combat speed than her be above Makima and knight in combat speed? Cuz putting a cap for the faster ones doesn't seems fair, as it's only applying speed equalization to a few chosen summons like hell devil

So a few of her summons MAY be faster than makima, and so the knight, while other summons are much slower at only supersonic speeds or else all her summons are speed equalized to Mákima's and the knight's combat speed

Nothing changes for speed of Makima and her minions at all, they remain at same level they were before. But there is still a problem of this:
Main feat for scaling is Katana Man sword dash. Quanxi can blitz Katana Man. Makima can blitz Quanxi and her group. Since Quanxi and Katana Man(and they peers in speed) are inferior in speed to Makima, they would remain inferior in speed to Makima(and subsequently Knight). Summons, who can scale directly to Makima/outspeed her, would have equal speed to Knight/outspeed Knight. But number of such summons is very limited. Besides things like 1000 year spear would be too weak to do anything to Knight.
Seemingly Hell Demon is main viable wincon.

Btw also as you specified, the knights doesnt know the specific abilities of Mákima's minions, so they aren't selectively insta killing the hell devil as soon as they see him, as they could be In a scenario of being distracted by the Hybrid devil's who have more similar speed to makima and so the knight, or other devil's trying to make attacks on the knight that end up not working

She doesn't know exact abilities, but knows about them being potentially very dangerous. Knight can produce danmaku in ridiculous amounts, so she would be able to kill most summons and with TK maintain distance between her and minions.
If Hell Devil come close but Knight managed to notice it, TK+Teleportation+Shapeshifting(actively used for dodging)+Danmaku would stop attempt at BFR.
So Makima would need to actively distract Knight with minions, and try to blitz/sneak attack her with dangerous summons(like Hell). All while under danmaku and TK, that folds her like a paper.

 

[Breadbear83]

Nothing changes for speed of Makima and her minions at all, they remain at same level they were before. But there is still a problem of this:
Main feat for scaling is Katana Man sword dash. Quanxi can blitz Katana Man. Makima can blitz Quanxi and her group. Since Quanxi and Katana Man(and they peers in speed) are inferior in speed to Makima, they would remain inferior in speed to Makima(and subsequently Knight). Summons, who can scale directly to Makima/outspeed her, would have equal speed to Knight/outspeed Knight. But number of such summons is very limited. Besides things like 1000 year spear would be too weak to do anything to Knight.
Seemingly Hell Demon is main viable wincon.


She doesn't know exact abilities, but knows about them being potentially very dangerous. Knight can produce danmaku in ridiculous amounts, so she would be able to kill most summons and with TK maintain distance between her and minions.
If Hell Devil come close but Knight managed to notice it, TK+Teleportation+Shapeshifting(actively used for dodging)+Danmaku would stop attempt at BFR.
So Makima would need to actively distract Knight with minions, and try to blitz/sneak attack her with dangerous summons(like Hell). All while under danmaku and TK, that folds her like a paper.

It weirds me that in the international assasin arc (Chapter 63), Hell Devil just spawned his hand to teleport the people In the building to hell without he physically showing up, while in the control devil arc he did physically appear in front of pochita (which may be dependant of the specific contract, the first one was Santa giving 3 children remotely and the second was a bunch of devil hunters sacrificing themselves while close to pochita)

If we are more based on the international assasin arc hell devil that didn't physically appear to use his teleporting hand, then the knight probably couldn't stop it as they couldn't see him, making it so that the knight needs to end the fight as soon as possible because they may not be able to stop the hell devil (if the hand teleported pochita into hell, then because the knight is capped at a slower speed than pochita, then if that hand appears, they won't be able to react to)

Not that I think that makima would immediately use the hell devil, I would see her first throwing the hybrids devil's at the knight, trying mind manipulation and possibly failling at it, trying inorganic manipulation or using Cosmo, most of them not even working out, and probably not just trying everything she has first before using hell devil

So, soon or later, once she tries to use the Hell Devil, if it happens that the Hell Devil doesn't need to show up in front of the knight, then the hand will get them and teleport them to hell, if the knight didn't killed makima yet

 

[Qurbonboev]

if the knight didn't killed makima yet

Well, if hell devil isn't first thing she uses, Knight definitely oneshotting her first with Danmaku + TK. And if she does survive it, Knight would do Final attack, suck everything and kill it with unavoidable danmaku

 

[Hiiilt]

Unless Makima manages to BFR Knight to Hell, or escape battlefield and continue the fight from great distance (both of which would guarantee her victory, but would be very difficult to pull off), Knight wins.

makima can teleport and use portals (plus she has precog) so getting away from the knight wouldn't rll be that difficult

 

[Hiiilt]

If Hell Devil come close but Knight managed to notice it, TK+Teleportation+Shapeshifting(actively used for dodging)+Danmaku would stop attempt at BFR.

the hell devil doesn't need to touch their target directly to teleport them so dodging wouldn't help

It weirds me that in the international assasin arc (Chapter 63), Hell Devil just spawned his hand to teleport the people In the building to hell without he physically showing up, while in the control devil arc he did physically appear in front of pochita (which may be dependant of the specific contract, the first one was Santa giving 3 children remotely and the second was a bunch of devil hunters sacrificing themselves while close to pochita)

that's bc in the control devil arc the hell devil was ordered to kill makima and then send her to hell whereas in the intertional assassins arc it only needed to send everyone inside the convenience store to hell

 

[Qurbonboev]

makima can teleport and use portals (plus she has precog) so getting away from the knight wouldn't rll be that difficult

Judging by profile, both of them require some time and setup(creating halo or summoning lower lifeforms), which obviously wouldn't be possible if she is squashed by class G telekinesis.

the hell devil doesn't need to touch their target directly to teleport them so dodging wouldn't help

From wiki:
BFR (As Makima has previously formed a contract with the Hell Devil before to escape from Hell, she should be able to do the reverse and sacrifice devil hunters to summon its hand to directly transport her target(s) to Hell.)
Santa Claus sacrificed children beforehand. Anti-Makima Squad first need to slit their throats.
So even if it's first things she does, she need some setup first, summon hunters, sacrifice them. Knight need only pin down with TK + rain down swords, both of which are thought based, and can be used simultaneously

 

[Arkenis]

So even if it's first things she does, she need some setup first, summon hunters, sacrifice them. Knight need only pin down with TK + rain down swords, both of which are thought based, and can be used simultaneously

She can do this from outside his range.

 

[God_of_perversion]

If the summons speed isn't equalized then won't the Titan just speed blitz every one?

 

[Arkenis]

You can put me for Makima. I don't see her being dumb enough to stand near Knight knowing he has soul attacks, she'll position herself likely hundreds of km away since her eye sight and clairvoyance is that good, and she can perceive everything from others or animals around. Summon people to control and either harm Knight like that or BFR him via Hell devil while he's distracted by several other devils potentially dangerous to him and also a horde of other opponents from the zombie devil or from Santa's dollification.

 

[God_of_perversion]

You can put me for Makima. I don't see her being dumb enough to stand near Knight knowing he has soul attacks, she'll position herself likely hundreds of km away since her eye sight and clairvoyance is that good, and she can perceive everything from others or animals around. Summon people to control and either harm Knight like that or BFR him via Hell devil while he's distracted by several other devils potentially dangerous to him and also a horde of other opponents from the zombie devil or from Prinz dollification.

He won't be distracted by the devils since he can just crush all of them

 

[Arkenis]

He won't be distracted by the devils since he can just crush all of them

That's enough distraction for him to potentially get hit by anything else like Hell devil or Cosmo

 

[Qurbonboev]

She can do this from outside his range.

I don't see her being dumb enough to stand near Knight knowing he has soul attacks, she'll position herself likely hundreds of km away since her eye sight and clairvoyance is that good,

Makima is inside range of Knight abilities. She isn't gonna escape if sucked by Class G telekinesis, and Knight would use it immediately(it's thought based). Did rough calc, and it would take only around 7*10^(0.5) seconds for Red wind (Knight TK) to force Makima cover half of distance between her and Knight. Accounting for Makima reaction speed, it's translated to around 0.2-0.5 seconds. So after this subjective amount of time she is already too close to her, where swords wait for her flash and soul. And Makima with her measly Class M wouldn't be able to stop sucking at all. Or do you think she can oppose to 2400x difference in LS?

If the summons speed isn't equalized then won't the Titan just speed blitz every one?

Summons are equalized. It just it's only Knight speed is reduced. It doesn't help that much anyways. Pretty much all summons are blitz tier slower than Makima.

That's enough distraction for him to potentially get hit by anything else like Hell devil or Cosmo

Summons that are several tiers below in durability, and tier below in speed aren't distraction. Knight will suck them all and destroy with swords, which would just go straight through all of them and turn to pasta.

You can put me for Makima

Counted

 

[God_of_perversion]

Summons are equalized. It just it's only Knight speed is reduced. It doesn't help that much anyways. Pretty much all summons are blitz tier slower than Makima.

I was talking about the Knight summoning the Titans wich all have ftl speeds

 

[Qurbonboev]

I was talking about the Knight summoning the Titans wich all have ftl speeds

I am sure that speed equalization would reduce speed of Titan as well, technically counting it as Knight summon. And if it didn't reduce it, Titan would kill everybody. It isn't Knight Pokemon, it will destroy anything

 

[Arkenis]

Makima is inside range of Knight abilities. She isn't gonna escape if sucked by Class G telekinesis, and Knight would use it immediately(it's thought based). Did rough calc, and it would take only around 7*10^(0.5) seconds for Red wind (Knight TK) to force Makima cover half of distance between her and Knight. Accounting for Makima reaction speed, it's translated to around 0.2-0.5 seconds. So after this subjective amount of time she is already too close to her, where swords wait for her flash and soul. And Makima with her measly Class M wouldn't be able to stop sucking at all. Or do you think she can oppose to 2400x difference in LS?

I've seen what you guys sent, he hasn't gone for TK instantly, he starts with danmaku several times.

 

[Qurbonboev]

I've seen what you guys sent, he hasn't gone for TK instantly, he starts with danmaku several times.

She starts with only danmaku when enemies are in close range. If enemies are that far, obviously she will try to use both TK and Danmaku(and she perfectly capable of this).
Knight is given some prior knowledge about Makima, including facts that:
She can teleport
It's very important to not let her go away
She beat Gun Devil before
So Knight wouldn't let her hav any chance of escaping

 

[Qurbonboev]

And even if Dess didn't use TK from the start, danmaku like this circle of Doom won't let her stay still for Teleportation, and simultaneously clear out minions

 

[Arkenis]

If enemies are that far, obviously she will try to use both TK and Danmaku(and she perfectly capable of this).

When?

Knight is given some prior knowledge about Makima, including facts that:
She can teleport
It's very important to not let her go away
She beat Gun Devil before
So Knight wouldn't let her hav any chance of escaping

So you've made a match where Makima gets hard locked into a range she can operate out of by hundreds of times, she gets trapped by Class G TK because the opponents TK works within the range you chose and she can be one shot by soul hax? I'm confused where you are on the fairness of this match's parameters at this point. Is there any way to make this fairer so we don't have to argue over range lmao. Maybe make it the standard 4km? Maybe remove prior knowledge?

 

[Arkenis]

And even if Dess didn't use TK from the start, danmaku like this circle of Doom won't let her stay still for Teleportation, and simultaneously clear out minions

So she leaves and appears hundreds of km away. That isn't doing anything to her.

 

[Qurbonboev]

When?

There for example.

So she leaves and appears hundreds of km away. That isn't doing anything to her.

Do you forget part about making it seriously difficult for her to leave that circle?

So you've made a match where Makima gets hard locked into a range she can operate out of by hundreds of times, she gets trapped by Class G TK because the opponents TK works within the range you chose and she can be one shot by soul hax? I'm confused where you are on the fairness of this match's parameters at this point. Is there any way to make this fairer so we don't have to argue over range lmao. Maybe make it the standard 4km? Maybe remove prior knowledge?

If I would make range higher than Knight magic range, Makima would 100% dip out, and there nothing Knight would be able to do, so it's certain stomp. I can remove prior knowledge, but Knight still would know that Makima is main enemy, and it's dangerous for her to lose, so she will lock in to her.

 

[Arkenis]

If I would make range higher than Knight magic range, Makima would 100% dip out, and there nothing Knight would be able to do, so it's certain stomp. I can remove prior knowledge, but Knight still would know that Makima is main enemy, and it's dangerous for her to lose, so she will lock in to her.

Sounds like a shit match if you have to cap someone's range by hundreds of times man.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Sounds like a shit match if you have to cap someone's range by hundreds of times man.

Currently there are 8 matchups in Makima profile.
2 of them have 100 m starting range
2 of them have 50 m starting range(both are Makima dubs)
1 of them has 5 m range

 

[Arkenis]

Currently there are 8 matchups in Makima profile.
2 of them have 100 m starting range
2 of them have 50 m starting range(both are Makima dubs)
1 of them has 5 m range

Why do you think bringing up anything proves anything? I would disagree with those too