About 2-B Alien X

[LaggingAround]

Whoops you two added the post before I saw it. So sorry for not responding to that as well.

@Doorinmyhouse Yes and I said before I would agree with you except what Paradox says contradicts to the infinite timelines. If he did not give a vaguely fixed number amount then there would be no discussion as I would be supporting the 2-B verse.

We have a time traveler who he himself says he understand all about time and he also knows everyone futures. He wouldn't have said the word "hundreds."

@Greenshifter What do you mean I forget the word currently? I'm not understanding it.

Unless you mean the possibilities of timelines that we do not know and you trying to say that the Chrono Navigator would destroy it all.

My counter argument to that would be that it still wouldn't change anything. Again, Paradox knows everything, he said it himself he knows the future of everyone and the branches. So when he goes back to the Ultimate Alien time he wouldn't have said "hundreds" unless there was actually only "Hundreds" of branches that the Prime Ben Tree diverges to.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

The visual presentation of the multiverse, clearly contradicts " hundreds" of timelines. It's also mentioned after "hundreds" of timelines, so see it is a retcon if you will

 

[Firestorm808]

@LaggingAround

Ben 10k Returns

In the same paragraph that Paradox uses hundreds, he then describes the timelines as ad infinitum. A strange contradiction.

"As Gwen guessed, cross-time is made up of parallel versions of the history we know. There are hundreds of them. A world where Gwen found the Omnitrix. A world where Albedo turned to Alien X and was trapped motionless for nearly a year. A world where you didn't have to destroy the Omnitrix to defeat Vilgax. Et cetera. Ad infinitum. These worlds are all every bit as real as our own, but they cannot must not be allowed to leak into ours. Which brings us to our problem."

"And then there were none" and "and then there was ben"

In Omniverse, this contradiction is corrected when he describes spacetime with branching timelines tree analogy. The tree will continue to grow indefinitely along with the branches. They even suggest the Many Worlds Interpretation when involving Quantum Mechanics and String theory to explain the branching timelines. Said theory also uses the tree analogy.

"Fair enough. But before I can answer any questions, you're going to need to brush up on quantum mechanics and string theory. There are many dimension, many Universes, many Earths, and thus many Ben Tennysons across those dimensions, dimensions which are not always in sync in time."

"Think of time and space as this tree. Down here is when you were 10 years old. Right here is now. Up here is when you'll be 30 years old. The trunk is the main timeline. These branches represent alternate timelines, where reality literally branches off and becomes a different timeline, each containing its own Ben Tennyson."

 

[Greenshifter]

Yup and notice how he only mentions timelines that already happened, sure this would be to prevent spoilers but this does mean that there is a very high likelihood that he only mentions that in 2011 there are hundreds of timelines, in 2012 there would be more of them (probably why there are more than hundreds of dots representing the different earths), in 2013 even more, and etc. Ad infinitum.

Meanwhile the CTB only destroyed all timelines in 2012 and those in 2013 and beyond would be destroyed due to the lack of a 2012 timeline, but this does not scale to it's AP. It's like the CTB cuts down the tree of the timelines, while the chrono navigator puts it on fire.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

"2-C, 2-B via chain reaction."

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

My head hurts from all of this.ƒÿúƒÿ½

 

[Greenshifter]

@The God Of Procrastination, exactly although I don't think that we generally threat it that way. (also future Ben got erased but he was in the present so yeah) Else the Anihilaarg would be Low 2-C, 2-B via chain reaction cause it created all timelines.

@XSOULOFCINDERX watch the episode "Let's do the time war again", then you'll know what a real headache is.

 

[Omimi]

also hundreds mean more than just one hundred no ?

 

[DragonicDoom]

@Greenshifter How are multiverses treated if they have more than 4 dimensions but have less than 1000 universes? Since the Map of Infinity confirms there are 17 dimensions as Azmuth states it "extends through" that many dimensions and that it's been dubbed a "complete map of space-time". And because I'm sure somebody will try to bring this up, this would take priority over the 26 dimensions Naljian statement as they only appeared in 1 episode and have 1 quote, whereas multiple people have called the Map of Infinity a map that can be used to go anywhere (including Max Tennyson and Azmuth) and it's a plot device central to an entire arc.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Dragonic, I think you are using dimensions in a multiversal and a spatio-temporal context interchangeably. But if I understand your question correctly then those would either be threated as one universe extra each or would double the cosmology size, for instance say there is only one Ledgerdomain vs there is a Ledgerdomain in every timeline.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

@Greenshifter How are multiverses treated if they have more than 4 dimensions but have less than 1000 universes? Since the Map of Infinity confirms there are 17 dimensions as Azmuth states it "extends through" that many dimensions and that it's been dubbed a "complete map of space-time". And because I'm sure somebody will try to bring this up, this would take priority over the 26 dimensions Naljian statement as they only appeared in 1 episode and have 1 quote, whereas multiple people have called the Map of Infinity a map that can be used to go anywhere (including Max Tennyson and Azmuth) and it's a plot device central to an entire arc.

The individual universes would already be 1-B (17 or 26 dimensions, it would be that tier). Azmuth may just not know about the other 9, since they are far more advanced than he is.

 

[Firestorm808]

@The God of Procrastination

It's not a chain reaction.

 

[Firestorm808]

The number of dimensions in 1 timeline is not exactly clear.

Alien Force: 26

Ultimate Alien: 17, over a hundred.

Omniverse: Many

 

[DragonicDoom]

@Greenshifter Sorry if it was confusing. I was trying to explain that based on the specific language used, we can conclude Azmuth refers to "Dimension" as a parameter of existence i.e length, width and depth. This is different to Omniverse, where "Dimension" is often used as a term for a parralel world (see Dimension 23 and Paradox saying the multiverse has many dimensions, each with their own Ben Tennyson).

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Are all of those statements about spatiotemporal dimensions?

 

[DragonicDoom]

@The God of Procrastination

The 17 Dimensions one likely is, as Azmuth states the Map of Infinity "extends through" 17 Dimensions, which sounds like he's refering to spatial dimensions like the 3 we exist in.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

As is the 26d one, the others seem to be about parralel universes.

 

[Greenshifter]

The number of dimensions in 1 timeline is not exactly clear.

Alien Force: 26

Ultimate Alien: 17, over a hundred.

Omniverse: Many

Woooooow I think you just used all 3 meanings together (although you said in one timeline, where does the 100 dimensions come from?), that ain't good, I'll probably make a drawing tomorrow so that we're all on the same page.

 

[Greenshifter]

@The God of Procrastination

The 17 Dimensions one likely is, as Azmuth states the Map of Infinity "extends through" 17 Dimensions, which sounds like he's refering to spatial dimensions like the 3 we exist in.

Ah well that way that would have no bearing on the chrono navigator I think since it was never mentioned to destroy spatio-temporal dimensions. The Ben 10 cosmology would be 26-dimensional most likely but because of tiering system revisions + Man Of Action stating Celestialsapiens are stronger than Naljians, we downgraded the Naljians so that's why no-one in Ben 10 is tier 1.

And the 17 dimensions might be referencing either spatio-temporal dimenions or alternate universes but in a Null Void/Ledgerdomain way I feel (so no alternate timelines). But since 17 spatio-temporal dimensions have no affect on the Chrono Navigator tier or in the best case scenario that those 17 alternate realities exist in every timeline, doesn't change anything either because of the way exponential functions work and just 5 years difference before the end of the universe would already give the cosmology a X32 boost in size which makes the X17 boost kinda irrelevant. However you can keep thinking about this since it might become relevant if i upgrade the chrono navigator to 2A.

 

[DragonicDoom]

@Greenshifter Would the Chrononavigator not have to be capable of destroying spatio-temporal dimensions, since its literally stated to be able to destroy entire timelines, so would all of that timeline's dimensions have to go with it?

 

[Firestorm808]

@Greenshifter

I'm aware of the inconsistency of how they use the word. In Paradox's speech above, he uses dimensions before shifting to timelines.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

@Greenshifter, the Chrono Navigator is stated to be able to destroy " all of time and causality itself" and " all of existence". This would include spatio-temporal dimensions

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@LaggingAround Omniverse Paradox diectly states that the timelines continuously diverge from the prime timeline throughout all of space-time.
It continously diverging doesn't matter though. DMB 1 already explained why this didnt matter when he brought his point up. Just because its continuous doesn't mean that the diverging happens over a quick rate, let alone immediately. Something can be continously done extremely slowly.

Keep in mind, I have no problem with Ben 10 remaining a 2-B Multiverse. Im just reiterating DMB 1's point as its something that should also be very much considered.

But is it actually proven that both of those theories are actually real in the Ben 10 Multiverse, rather than just them being purely theoretical? Going to be blatant, I feel people are taking this and placing it at higher expectations than where they should actually be.

Just because a theory on something is mentioned within a respective fiction doesn't automatically mean the theory is part of that fiction's cosmology. Is it mentioned? Sure. But actually flat out applied to the fiction's verse? No. For something extraordinary as this, extraordinary evidence is required beyond just a single mention of the theories. This is like saying any verse that even mentions the Many Worlds Interpretation is automatically a 2-B verse. And we don't do this. Verse's who make mention of quantum mechanics, string theory or either one without actually showing those theories are real for them never get accepted as having them and I know this by personal experience. So I don't see what would make Ben 10 any different just because they're mentioned.

Not that Paradox is necessarily wrong, but there's a difference between referencing a theory and the theory actually being real inside the verse.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

They aren't just hypothesies, the very fact that we clearly see that this many timelines exist confirm the theories, moreover Paradox is a guy who has complete understanding of the space-time continuum, so he would know whether or not those theories were in fact applicable. String theory isnt merely mentioned, string theory + quantum mechanics are the entire reasons as for why timelines even exist in Ben 10 in the first place. The existance of Every timeline other than the main timeline is a testament to string theory and quantum mechanics. String theory and quantum mechanics are theories used to explain why alternative timelines exist, which are clearly real.


Moreover, the Naljian also references string theory when she says that "only 26 that matter", referencing the amount of dimensions predicted by the bosnic string thoery.

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

I would be perfectly fine with an "at least Low 2-C, possibly 2-B" rating.

 

[Firestorm808]

Thanks Corporal Atlas for the correction. @Doorinmyhouse

The Naljian who appeared in the series said there are "only 26 that matter", indicating that there are probably more. In the context, it's spacial dimensions.

• Ben 10 Alien Force - Busy Box
  • Naljian: It's just that you are such a young species. You only perceive three dimensions. Is that right?
  • Ben: Yeah. How many are there?
  • Naljian: Only 26 that matter. You'll work it out soon, I'm sure.
  • Uh-huh.
  • My point is that this "dangerous weapon" you fear is nothing more than my daughter's favorite toy.
  • Get out of town.
  • We were on an afternoon excursion to the lower dimensions, and she must have dropped it out of her carriage. I've been looking everywhere for it.

In the context below, it's referrring to general universes.

• Ben 10 Ultimate Alien - Solitary Confinement
  • Azmuth: Listen carefully. The creatures you battle now are nothing compared to their master. He has enslaved a hundred dimensions and now seeks to enslave ours. Should he gain a foothold here, our entire universe will fall. When the Diagon comes, you must destroy him.

 

[Firestorm808]

Here are the clips showing the multiverse and it being destroyed.


Ben 10 Omniverse - And Then There Were None (Preview) Clip 2-0


Ben 10 Omniverse Se6 - Ep01 And Then There Were None - Screen 11

 

[Corporal_Atlas]

Dagon isn't conquering 100+ spatial dimensions, which are what the Naljians are referring to, he's conquering univeres/dimensions of existence. For the situation with Dagon universes and dimensions are used interchangeably, as is often the case for the series and fiction. Thus Vilgax saying he'll conquer Dagon's universe for daring to try and conquer his. The Naljian literally says they only see in three dimensions, and that there are 26 that matter when asked how many there are, which is spatial.

 

[DemonicDude]

Here are the clips showing the multiverse and it being erased.

Ben 10 Omniverse - And Then There Were None (Preview) Clip 2-0

Ben 10 Omniverse Se6 - Ep01 And Then There Were None - Screen 11

Let's go Storm !!! #Firestorm808

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

Edit: Nevermind this post

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

And how exactly is Paradox/ Azmuth stating Alien X can do anything/ is omnipotent vague, when it obviously would mean that he could literally do anything limited to what someone or something has showed in Ben 10? Considering Alien X literally created the entire universe and everythig in it, is stated to make "ideas become real", has been stated by the creators as being able to do anything he can imagine etc?

The obvious implication is that he is omnipotent in Ben 10, as he has consistently been treated as a God in the series.

 

[My_area]

I believe its more clear in what context Whis was refering about Grand Priest as stronger than him so there is no room for interpretation for that statement as Whis compares himself with Grand Priest while this isn't the case with Alien X statements

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

Hmm, I see your point. However, the chrono navigator is a weapon that can turn everything in the Ben 10 series into literally nothing. The Chrono Navigator solely uses 'reality manipulation and space-time manipulation,''''' as it is able to erase both entirely. So even if all the "greatest power in the universe" were only refering to Alien X' hax, more specifclly reality manipulation & space-time manipulation and not attack potency, how would that change anything? The only way it could have greater hax than a weapon that can erase literally everything in the Ben 10 cosmos, is if he could do at least the same.


And again, how exactly is "being able to do anything"/ omnipotent vague .....??? It obviously implies he can do anything limited to the Ben 10 series, just like we would assume from "omnipotents" from other series. No true omnipotent being in any fictional series exist, no fictional character can literally do anything , omnipotent characters are at best always limited to being omnipotent in the series they are a part of.

 

[My_area]

Yeah I suppose so but doesn't "greatest power in the universe" means in sense of power rather than hax??

Its just bit iffy to put Alien X above chrono navigator based on being strongest statements alone and have no feats to back it up thats why Low 2C possibly 2B looks good for me

Being able to do anything or omnipotent can mean in this sense but it can be denied too because they haven't shown or demonstrated their abilites to do anything I mean statements without feats can be accepted but statements like these have chance of outliner or hyperbole but I am not expert at Ben 10 verse so I wont debate on this matter

 

[My_area]

Just asking a question but didn't choronosapien bomb a 2B level bomb one shot Atomic X? Which is fusion of Alien X and Atomic so it should atleast be comparable with Alien X to some degree?

 

[MagicCloud6]

I highly doubt it. Stinkarms (a fusion of Four Arms and Stinkfly) literally cuts his stregnth in half (seeing how he was barely able to lift a mutated toad) and could barely fly for a few seconds.

And there's Heatjaws (Heatblast and Ripjaws). He still needs to be in water and if he's seriously dehydrated, he won't be able to generate fire.

 

[My_area]

I guess yeah because fusion in Ben 10 balances aliens traits and I guess it could only fly for few seconds because of light and small wings with heavy body?

Yeah because of Ripjaw trait and ohh

So then how will we judge Atomic x strength then? I mean it still has Celestialpaiens dna and half body is Celestialpaiens so I guess it should still be 2B?

 

[Firestorm808]

@My area

We discussed Atomic X here: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3471332

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Sorry. Had school to deal with. Replying now.

>They aren't just hypothesies, the very fact that we clearly see that this many timelines exist confirm the theories

Not string theory, which deals strictly with higher dimensional planes. Quantum Mechanics is what deals with parallel universes, so at best, the scans in the imgur album would only prove the latter theory is real. And even then, this is not concrete since there is no evidence that these timelines are directly linked with Quantum Mechanics. Paradox giving a nod to both theories and then explaining that timelines diverge continuously doesn't mean they are directly connected.

Even verses where it is blatantly stated that quantum mechanics has been researched by characters in-verse and is linked to the existence of parallel worlds isn't accepted by us. Like in the case of Yu-Gi-Oh! .

>moreover Paradox is a guy who has complete understanding of the space-time continuum, so he would know whether or not those theories were in fact applicable.

Paradox being extremely smart and him being 100% right are 2 different things. Paradox isn't an infallible source, and even then, Paradox never provides any details into these theories actually existing as part of the Ben 10 Cosmology. He makes a simple reference to them and leaves it at that. Can they possibly be real? Sure. But beyond a reasonable doubt? Definite no.

>String theory isnt merely mentioned, string theory + quantum mechanics are the entire reasons as for why timelines even exist in Ben 10 in the first place.

Except, again, this is never explained to be factual. Your assuming its the direct reason. In fact, the first video Firestorm linked here would actually be a contradiction in string theory being an existing application to the Multiverse. Quoted by Paradox:

"Fair enough. But before I can answer any questions, you'll need to brush up on quantum mechanics and string theory. There are many dimensions, many universes, many earths. And thus, many ben tennysons across those dimensions."

Pay close attention to what I bolded out and you'll see what the issue is. Paradox, in the same explanation where he mentions the theories, explicitly says that there are many Ben Tennyson's existing across these dimensions. And as I said before, String Theory doesn't deal with parallel dimensions and universes, but higher dimensional planes.

Ben is NOT a higher dimensional being in the slightest. Disregarding common sense, Omniverse explicitly proves he isn't by the blatant fact that Ben could not perceive the true forms of the Contimelia, who are blatantly 5-D beings and could only view them as Mr. Smoothie drinks. So the fact that Paradox says all of these dimensions contain a different Ben Tennyson, including No-Watch Ben, drills in the inconsistency that he is referring to String Theory being a thing here, or else he would have never said there would be a Ben in each of these dimensions. Pushing the more likely conclusion that he is talking about parallel worlds when mentioning "dimensions".

The only actual implification for String Theory would be from the Naljians.

>And how exactly is Paradox/ Azmuth stating Alien X can do anything/ is omnipotent vague, when it obviously would mean that he could literally do anything limited to what someone or something has showed in Ben 10?

Because thats not what "can do anything" means and is just a way to suit a narrative in scaling Alien X to anything one wants to argue for. That, and again, "Omnipotence" for anything here is only used to describe someones power of abilities as god-like. It literally doesn't mean anything else to us.

Multiple characters here are claimed to be omnipotent. Hao Asakura, Yhwach, etc. Just means that they are god-like characters. Thats it.

>is stated to make "ideas become real", has been stated by the creators as being able to do anything he can imagine etc?

Explicitly reality warping. And is entering NLF territory.

>The obvious implication is that he is omnipotent in Ben 10, as he has consistently been treated as a God in the series.

So what? A character being called a "god" in and of itself is very meaningless and vague in and of itself. "God" has varying depicitions in fiction. As low as Fairy Tail having "god slayers" to as high as Pokemon having gods over Multiversal concepts. It's not a one size fit all standard and is literally irrelevant. Being treated as a God doesnt mean you can get away with anything.

>The Chrono Navigator solely uses 'reality manipulation and space-time manipulation, as it is able to erase both entirely.

This is absolutely not how this works. Destroying reality and space-time doesn't give you the actual haxes in any way, shape, or form. It just means you can destroy them.

Literally every tier 2 character and their mother on this site would be space-time reality warpers if this was the case. There is absolutely no evidence that the Chrono Navigator uses pure hax to do its 2-B feat instead of sheer destructive power, otherwise Celestialsapiens would have never remotely scaled to it to begin with. And honestly, making the assumption that a weapon would use the exact opposite of destruction power as the default assumtpion is very abirtary. It's 2-B through simple attack potency.

>The only way it could have greater hax than a weapon that can erase literally everything in the Ben 10 cosmos, is if he could do at least the same.

See above. Besides dimensional travel and time manipulation, the Chrono Navigator doesn't use hax. And it still wouldn't matter since no Celestialsapien can use their space-time hax for offensive purposes. They can change the very nature of space-time, but are never stated to do anything else apart from that.

>Just asking a question but didn't choronosapien bomb a 2B level bomb one shot Atomic X? Which is fusion of Alien X and Atomic so it should atleast be comparable with Alien X to some degree?

Yes. There isn't any evidence of Atomic X being weaker than Alien X besides getting harmed by Maltruent. Which is pure PIS since even without factoring in Alien X, Atomix scales above aliens that are much superior to Chronosapiens, like Way Big. And Chronosapiens in general are universally known to be a weak species. Atomix by itself is superior to anything Maltruent can achieve, so an even stronger fusion like Atomic-X getting harmed has justification of being succumbed to PIS.

>I highly doubt it. Stinkarms (a fusion of Four Arms and Stinkfly) literally cuts his stregnth in half (seeing how he was barely able to lift a boulder) and could barely fly for a few seconds.

False Equivalency. Fusions from the original series were made by a glitch in the original omnitrix by Ben removing the Omnitrix's casing.

The Biomnitrix's entire desig is to fuse Ben's aliens specifically, unlike the Omnitrix.

 

[MagicCloud6]

What you just implied is nothing but Pure headcannon.

I recall when Ben 10K transformed into Humungoopsaur he couldn't even break a door down with his punches and yet he's rated as High 5-A, which makes no sense yet over the main series, we see Ben prime as Regular Humungousaur regularly shown break though walls, buildings, and boulders with relative ease.

And what if the Biomnitrix's entire design was to fuse aliens? If Ben 10K were to fuse Stinkarms or Heatjaws, he'll more or less get the same result as Ben did when he was 10.

(This will be the only reply that I will make regarding to this topic as constant more or these replies will just derail the thread and we already dealt that many times before here).

Edit: Your response again is nothing but pure headcannon. I won't bother making a response as I proved my point (and it still stands), I don't have the time, and its just gonna derail the thread.