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About 2-B Alien X

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@ProfessorKukui4Life I completely agree that the Biomnitrix fusions should not be compared to the glitch fusions. However, I do believe that fusions aren't always going to have higher AP than their components. If Ben 10K made a fusion of Four Arms and Grey Matter (for brains and brawn) that fusion wouldn't by default have higher AP than Four Arms, as they would likely be far smaller and thus have much less muscle mass. When looking at Atomic-X, it appears that his powers revolve around energy projection and manipulation, rather than reality and space-time manipulation, which makes sense given Atomix's nuclear energy manipulation. Fusion with Alien X seems to just give Atomix access to a new and more potent kind of energy than simple nuclear energy, as well as minor Celestialsapien abilities such as teleportation.

Combining genes doesn't automatically make them stronger, even if you were to take the best traits of each species and blended them together, it doesn't strengthen the preexisting genes. That's like saying that 2 parents who can both lift 100kg at max have a kid who can lift 100 tons (and because it's the Biomnitrix controlling the gene splicing I'm ignoring random mutation).
 
Size doesn't have anything to do with someone's Attack Potency DragonicDoom. Something can be made smaller and still possess the exact same level of power as they did before. Way Big and Up Chuck's fusion is a great example of this, especially since we currently accept it as High 5-A

Anyway, my arguments aren't just about making the point of fusions being stronger. It also has to do with the fact that there's no evidence, or a single bit of confirmation, that the fusions become weaker at all in Ben 10. The problem is that people are taking the glitched-malfunctioned fusions created by the original Omnitrix and automatically applying them to all fusions in Ben 10 franchise as some kind of factual standard when it's extremely flawed and ridiculous to magically apply. Fusion can be made to not make the product stronger, but that requires evidence to prove as the default assumption is that fusions in general DO make the product stronger. Unless explicit evidence about it says otherwise.

Not to mention, as this was said in The Everlasting's own downgrade thread for Atomic-X, the argument here is implying that Alien X is having it's power weakened by mutliple degrees of infinity just for a few extra powers and by a device nonetheless. And that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
 
@Kukui Nobody is currently accepted at high-5A except Ascalon when misused and maybe Vilgax and Diagon. My downgrade thread got accepted for that, I'm just waiting till my OS revision is accepted, to do the Way Big and by extension Atomix downgrade to 7A.

And in fact Big Chuck is the perfect example of the opposite of what you're claiming since a few of Eon's fodder robots were able to topple him.

Also this is assuming Ben 10k uses logical reasoning for the concept of a device he made so he can have fun again or maybe Bellicus and Serena just told him to never ask them for their help again some time in the future so he has no choice but to use fusions if he wants to access Celestialsapien powers.
 
That still wouldnt change my argument since 7-A is still ridiculously superior to 9-B, which is where Maltruent is placed. Whether 7-A or High 5-A, my point stands.
 
I'll upgrade Maltruant just like base Ben to 7A as well, Maltruant should be obvious cause Rook's Proto tool clashed with Khyber's sword who is 7A, yet did no damage to Maltruant in the final episode.
 


>Then it's a good thing this standard isnt just for Dragonball. Its a standard for fusion in general.

Umm no it isnt, I would like the source for this.

>Confirmed by WoG to be Ben's second most powerful transformation, which would make him more powerful than Way Big)"

Atomix's current justification for being High 5-A. While Maltruant is literally just 9-B......so...yeah.

Maltruent has defeated adult Gwen, adult Ben and his wife, as well as other feats that puts him WAY above 9-B. The profile is inaccurate.

Since we arent applying death of the author and instead uses WOG, WOG says Ben never uses Alien X because it's too powerful and risk destroying the universe, but you want us to believe that he made an alien even stronger than Alien X despite of that?

WOG also says Alien X can create and destroy universes, universes in plural.

WOG also says Alien X can destroy the entire omniverse of Ben 10.

>Just like there isn't any confirmation or remote implication that fusion in Ben 10 makes them weaker.

There arent any if you ignore all the evidence, yes. And you clearly dont know what a "false equivalence" is, matter of fact is, the omnitrix fused Ben's aliens, they turned out weaker, we have actual evidence that fusions dont always make aliens stronger. Or are you saying they werent acutal fusions?

It's also pretty funny how you say I'm "magically applying " false equivalnces yet here you are doing exactly the same. You dont have any proof that fusions makes aliens stronger, yet you are making some bullshit argument implying we have some automatic standard that says fusions always turn out stronger than its sum. Even in Dragon Ball, if the fusion is done succesfully that isnt always the case.
 
@Professor I dont even understand this argument to be honest. You and Everlasting are saying that Atomic-X was destroyed by the Chronospien Timebomb, despite being equal or stronger than Alien X, proves that Alien X is inferior to the Timebomb.

Even if you are right that Alien X = < Atomic X , Why couldnt it simply be an inconsistency that he got killed by the timbeobmb?? Since you are willing to ignore Atomic X being defeated by Maltruent beccause you consider it an inconsistency, why cant both be???
 
Doorinmyhouse said:
Since we are using WOG, WOG also says Ben never uses Alien X because it's too powerful, but you want us to believe that he made an alien even stronger than Alien X despite of that?
Click to expand...
He used it once ever, against an unknown threat that was clearly quite powerful. He probably didn't make the biomnitrix with Atomic-X in mind.
 
He used Alien X once in Alien force, onfe in Ultimate alien, and 4 times in Omniverse. Or are you talking about Atomic X? We dont know how many times adult Ben has used Atomic X, but at least 4 times on-screen.
 
Doorinmyhouse said:
He used Alien X once in Alien force, onfe in Ultimate alien, and 4 times in Omniverse. Or are you talking about Atomic X? We dont know how many times adult Ben has used Atomic X, but at least 4 times on-screen.
Click to expand...
Atomic-X, what were those times?
 
>Nobody is currently accepted at high-5A except Ascalon when misused and maybe Vilgax and Diagon. My downgrade thread got accepted for that, I'm just waiting till my OS revision is accepted, to do the Way Big and by extension Atomix downgrade to 7A.

Uh, according to your own downgrade thread, Atomix and Atomic-X are only going to be downgraded to 5-A along with Way Big. So this definitely doesnt change my point here.

>And in fact Big Chuck is the perfect example of the opposite of what you're claiming since a few of Eon's fodder robots were able to topple him.

And once again, nice job on focusing on a ridiculously low-end feat, which would downgrade like 99% of the wikia if taken even remotely seriously.

Should we downgrade Goku from Low 2-C for needing a suit to go into the center of the earth then? Or Naruto from 5-B for getting stabbed by a sword?

>I'll upgrade Maltruant just like base Ben to 7A as well, Maltruant should be obvious cause Rook's Proto tool clashed with Khyber's sword who is 7A, yet did no damage to Maltruant in the final episode.

Not only is this a case of durability, but this is also assuming its not an outlier when Chronosapiens are universally known to be a physically weak species compared to any other alien race, which makes it even more questionable of Maltruant being able to do that.

And even if the upgrade goes through, Atomix and Atomic-X are still going to be 5-A. So it still wouldnt change my point from earlier.

>Umm no it isnt, I would like the source for this.

Fusion is when you combine 2 things, or 2 beings, into one product. Combining things will obviously make the product stronger and better than the sum parts in more cases than not.

A source is not needed for every little thing as it's pretending that common sense doesn't exist.

>Maltruent has defeated adult Gwen, adult Ben and his wife, as well as other feats that puts him WAY above 9-B. The profile is inaccurate.

Get him upgraded then. Until then, what the profile says dictates. Thats how it works here.

>Since we arent applying death of the author and instead uses WOG, WOG says Ben never uses Alien X because it's too powerful and risk destroying the universe, but you want us to believe that he made an alien even stronger than Alien X despite of that?

TGoP already answered this, but to add onto it, this WoG is obviously bullshit since the show itself has shown multiple times that Ben is willing to use Alien X when the moment calls for it.

>And you clearly dont know what a "false equivalence" is, matter of fact is, the omnitrix fused Ben's aliens, they turned out weaker, we have actual evidence that fusions dont always make aliens stronger.

And like i've explained for about 7 times already, this isn't evidence. The Omnitrix wasn't designed to fuse aliens together. It wasn't built for that purpose. It could only do it when there were glitches in its functions, therefore making crappy fusions of the aliens it held. It's obvious on why they would turn out to be weak, the omnitrix cannot create proper fusions.

Answer me this: Someone has a machine thats designed to make ice cream cones. Yet, someone else comes along and tries using that machine to make something entirely different, lik donuts. Now tell me, are the donuts that are made from an ice cream machine doing to be actual donuts?

You can't compare this to literally every other fusion in the entire franchise. Especially to a device that IS created for doing fusions without relying on a glitch in its fuctioning to make it happen. That is a disgusting generalization.

>You dont have any proof that fusions makes aliens stronger, yet you are making some bullshit argument implying we have some automatic standard that says fusions always turn out stronger than its sum

Im not doing the same thing because I don't need evidence for this. Common sense dictates that combining 2 things together will make it beyond the sum parts.

For it to not suddenly do is what requires evidence. For a combination to not suddenly make it greater than the individual aspects is what needs evidence. And Ben 10 has shown absolutely none of that.

>Why couldnt it simply be an inconsistency that he got killed by the timbeobmb?? Since you are willing to ignore Atomic X being defeated by Maltruent beccause you consider it an inconsistency, why cant both be???

Because this is also a false equivalency.

Atomic-X being legitimately defeated by Maltruent is bullshit since Atomix without any fusion whatsoever is superior to Aliens who are superior to anything Maltruent can dish out. Like Way Big. Atomic X has a basis of being a victim of PIS and inconsistency.

Atomic-X has no basis of being even comparable to the time bomb to fall back onto in the first place. It being defeated by it is the only relation it has with the CTB in general.
 
>Uh, according to your own downgrade thread, Atomix and Atomic-X are only going to be downgraded to 5-A along with Way Big. So this definitely doesnt change my point here.

I'll probably make another one downgrading Way Big to 7A, sorry for the confusion.

>And once again, nice job on focusing on a ridiculously low-end feat, which would downgrade like 99% of the wikia if taken even remotely seriously.

It's one of the 2 feats Big Chuck has, the other one is eating those robots, don't really know if toppling means anything tho cause then Ditto might be 7A for toppling Eon.

>Not only is this a case of durability, but this is also assuming its not an outlier when Chronosapiens are universally known to be a physically weak species compared to any other alien race, which makes it even more questionable of Maltruant being able to do that.

Clockwork got thrown into a wall by princess Looma, Maltruant is stronger than Clockwork, I got an even better scaling chain when it comes to AP instead of durability (one that gets him close to Atomic-X) but it only works post the OS upgrade and Way Big downgrade.

>Atomic-X has no basis of being even comparable to the time bomb to fall back onto in the first place. It being defeated by it is the only relation it has with the CTB in general.

Exactly and the CTB is probably hax in the first place so I don't even know why Atomic-X is being brought up in this thread cause he has no bearing on Alien X's rating.
 
Because I feel like it

Because he only has 1 feat left that keeps him in tier 5, which is Malgax surviving (kuch kuch they got turned to dust) a moon-busting attack and Feedback was able to hurt a stronger version of Malware without absorbing anything.
 
> Im not doing the same thing because I don't need evidence for this. Common sense dictates that combining 2 things together will make it beyond the sum parts.

For it to not suddenly do is what requires evidence. For a combination to not suddenly make it greater than the individual aspects is what needs evidence. And Ben 10 has shown absolutely none of that.

Biomnitrix Fusion is not traditional fusion. It's gene splicing. It's as if two different alien species had a child together. Much like Demi-gods to godly parents, the child is not by default stronger.

Percy Jackson is not by default stronger than Poseidon.
 
Firestorm808 said:
> Im not doing the same thing because I don't need evidence for this. Common sense dictates that combining 2 things together will make it beyond the sum parts.
For it to not suddenly do is what requires evidence. For a combination to not suddenly make it greater than the individual aspects is what needs evidence. And Ben 10 has shown absolutely none of that.

Biomnitrix Fusion is not traditional fusion. It's gene splicing. It's as if two different alien species had a child together. Much like Demi-gods to godly parents, the child is not by default stronger.
Click to expand...
Agreed
 
>I'll probably make another one downgrading Way Big to 7A, sorry for the confusion.

What DragonicDoom said. These sudden downgrades to 7-A are starting to come off as downplay the way I see it, at least for Way Big and such if not for Ultimate Aliens. According to Feedback's page, he didn't harm a stronger version of Malware. He harmed Second form Malware. Malware is only tier 5 in his 3rd and fourth forms, which is what Way Big scales to.

>Exactly and the CTB is probably hax in the first place so I don't even know why Atomic-X is being brought up in this thread cause he has no bearing on Alien X's rating

Because someone here asked about Atomic-X and the time bomb. Granted, your right on this point though. It shouldnt have been brought up to begin with as it had nothing to do with this topic.

>Biomnitrix Fusion is not traditional fusion. It's gene splicing. It's as if two different alien species had a child together.

Where is this even stated to be the case? Because even the ben 10 wikia's page on the Biomnitrix doesn't have this stated anywhere on it when doing a quick search. In fact, under the references of the page, it actually explains that Ben 10K fuses the aliens by slamming the 2 omnitrix gauntlets together, which would mean he's fusing the actual aliens together and not just splicing their DNA. According to Derrick J. Wyatt .

In addition, the Biomnitrix is also confirmed to not store fusions, so the fusions would have to only exist when the actual aliens are fused into one. Otherwise, if it was gene splicing, the DNA used to make the fusion would be stored within the Biomnitrix for later use.
 
> Because this is also a false equivalency.

Atomic-X being legitimately defeated by Maltruent is bullshit since Atomix without any fusion whatsoever is superior to Aliens who are superior to anything Maltruent can dish out. Like Way Big. Atomic X has a basis of being a victim of PIS and inconsistency.

Atomic-X has no basis of being even comparable to the time bomb to fall back onto in the first place. It being defeated by it is the only relation it has with the CTB in general.

When did Waybig fight Mltruent? Maltreunt has only fought Clockwork, Atomic X and Feedback.
 
@ProfessorKukui4Life

The way the Omnitrix works is that it alters the user's DNA to match the DNA sample. The Biomnitrix shouldn't be that much different. The two Omnitrixes create a spliced DNA sample and then alters the user to match it.

The Omnitrix and Primus, by design, only stores Native DNA, not hybrids.

Spliced DNA isn't by default better than the originals. I highly doubt that Big Chuck (who is about 3x the height of a human and got knocked down by minions) can lift a Hyperspace Jump gate like Way Big. Humungoopsaur is still susceptible to his Anti-Gravity Generator even though Humungousaur isn't.
 
The problem is, even if we take the assumption that the Biomitrix isnt that much different than the Omnitrix when it comes to transformations at face value, it doesn't make any kind of sense. Since you used a parent and child analogy, i'll reiterate it to help get my point across.

If 2 parents have a child by mixing their DNA together, is the child going to just suddenly vanish rather than become it's own entity? Of course not. The issue is that Biomnitrix fusion aliens are not their "own entities" since the Biomnitrix doesn't store fusions like it does regular alien DNA. And we know it stores Alien DNA since Ben can still use one of the gauntlets as like a regular Omnitrix to transform into aliens. So if it doesn't store the DNA of the fusion aliens, that means the DNA can only exist when the actual aliens are fused together, which makes the confirmation of how the Biomnitrix fuses aliens by slamming the 2 omnitrix gauntlets together.

It's never stated that the Biomnitrix creates spliced DNA samples of the individual aliens to create fusions.
 
Ben's DNA is being modified by both Omnitrixes. We agree on that. It's still gene modification at the end of the day.

In addition, our Fusionism page acknowledges that "Not all fusions will lead to good results." I once again refer to Big Chuck and Humungoopsaur not being only the best of both worlds. There can be trade-offs.
 
I'm still not seeing the evidence as for why Waybig would be> Maltruent. Did Maltreunt lose against one of Ben's aliens other than Anihilaargh-absorbed Feedback?
 
Firestorm808 said:
Yeah, that's in reference to the Cosmic Destruction Game timeline.
Click to expand...
Do you believe that Way big can destroy a moon ? or hurt someone like malware ? Do you think it's real ?
 
Hmmm ok, could just be Man of Action changed their mind on planet level Way Big tho or they just needed a big threat for their video game. Also even if it was secondary canon, there would have to be absolutely no contradictions for this to be accepted. But Frankenstrike 23 was able to hurt Way Big and Malware's 100 times stronger statement contradicts this as well (unless everyone becomes small planet level or something). So putting Way Big on planet level based on only this seems very iffy to me.
 
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