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Yu-Gi-Oh ! Massive AP CRT

The_2nd_Existential_Seed

The_2nd_Existential_Seed

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This thread will be littered with information to be accompanied by scans later on. This is for the moment a catalog. You may discuss the feats at length if you chose to.

Feats:

  • The Spirit World was described to be based around parallel theory, quantum theory, and quantum mechanics. Each have been described as universes several times and were heavily indicated to be separated.
  • The Supreme King Judai created the Super Fusion Card with his own dueling energy and the darkness in his heart according to Yubel , a card described as being able to rewrite the universe and it's spirit world by numerous indications. Meaning even without Yubel , Judai was already at this level
  • He can take hits from Darkness, a being defined as Unfathomably powerful in comparison to all the entities he ever fought prior (including Yubel and the Light of Destruction) while having Yubel taken from his body.
  • Leviathan is described as being capable of destroying ththe Spirit World even in a weakened state, and the True Egyptian Gods [Not the spirits within the God Cards which are a lot weaker] scales far above this. Devack from 5Ds also scales to the Spirit World for nearly destroying it as well as a villain affecting it with his psychic piwers, and said villain was far weaker than Luna was. Even Ancient Fairy Dragon has a Spirit World level feat as well.
  • The Illusionary Beasts [The God Cards] made Yugi have the strongest spiritual deck , even after his adventures as the Supreme King , Yubel , and the Darkness... Which would make even Battle City Yugi/Atem at the same level as Judai is at this current time.
  • Post-Yubel Judai was overwhelmed by Stardust Dragon, and was stated that he would be killed by the next attack. Judai as of Yubel could again tank hits from the Darkness. This means S1 5Ds Signers and Co scale above Post-Yubel Judai
 
Before I can really do anything... I have to start with GX:

Dueling Energy:

  • Dueling is described to involve Dueling Energy
  • This glow around Johan and Judai is is the same energy we see in Viper's tank , which was designed to show how much dueling energy Judai has in comparison to others.
  • In-fact Dueling Strength is a force that is determined by how much effort someone puts into a duel and the strength of his deck ,for example
  • This proves thet the "Strongest Duelists" statements shouldn't be taken as just "being better at dueling" but it's a canonical energy source similar to Ki and "Power Levels" from DBZ in terms of in-verse utilization.
  • Also to prove it once again , it is soon after Judai sees a similar glow around Yugi that Judai proclaims him as the Strongest Duelist , and after looking at the God Cards and viewing their Dueling Energysays this, proving the "Duelist being strong" has to do with Dueling Energy.
  • Paradox was another case. Judai called him extremely strong because of Stardust being in his deck, meaning those who are powerful duelists in both GX and DMs has to do with the spiritual strength of the cards in their deck, not strategy or something outlandish such as that.
The nature of The Twleve Dimensions [As this determins the level of the Universe as either 3-A, Low 2-C, or perhaps even 2-C as it once was]:

Super Fusion (or Super Polymerization):

Yubel by Herself

Light of Destruction:

Satorious describes his power as this:

Scaling:

  • Neos was able to deflect an attack from Satorious who from the above when possessed by the Light is either at a Universal to Low Multiversal Level . He couldn't do it to Stardust Dragon , which was a Malefic [Corrupt] version... Meaning it scales to the original and thus S1 Signers.
  • Paragus consistently referred to Judai as being a gifted duelist but nowhere near as strong as the Battle City high level combatants [Kaiba , Yugi, Joey] , even after the incident with Satorious and with Yubel. Yubel called Yugi a significant threat and Yugi's Dueling Energy and Spiritual Deck trumps the aforementioned enemies from GX in terms of statements despite Super Polymerization and the Light Barrier being cards able to affect the Universe & the Twelve Dimensions. Judai outright called Yugi the strongest of all duelists and this was a repeated them throughout GX, meaning Judai never surpassed Yugi or even was close to reaching his level until the Final Graduation Duel.
  • The World of Darkness was canonically stated to be the polar opposite yet comparable of the Universe. Nightshroud embodied it yet was defeated by Judai yet again.
So there is a lot of stuff, just from GX, supporting the Top Duelists in the original 3 series either becoming tier 3 or tier 2. I'll work of Duel Monsters and 5Ds whenever I get the chance.
 
Honestly, they've been in need of upgrades for a long time. Like Marik's page literally links a 9-B Calc but says he's 9-C on the profile. What I'm jabbing at is the pages are horribly outdated and I really do think there is a lot of evidence putting them easily in the Tier 2 range, Tier 4 at the absolute worst. Continue though.
 
Interesting. I think this looks fine and consistent at a glance.

I think Universal Yu-Gi-Oh makes a lot of sense and that a multiverse is consistent. The original series also doesn't have to scale to Jaden and such as their Millennium Items can support an alternate reality. There's also this statement and Zorc creating the Shadow Realm.

Another thing about Nightshroud is that he should logically be Tier 2 himself, as he is the creator of an alternate reality. I'll try to talk more about that in a separate thread though.
 
There's stuff here that i'll need further looking into.

However, as far as the 12 dimensions go, SomebodyData in the past had blatantly debunked them being universes. Besides the human world of course. So anything involving this is nothing beyond Low 2-C.
 
@Inverted I can agree with the fact most of them are horrendously outdated. Like Atem is viewed as Tier 9 despite as soon as he awakened and remembered his name he repelled Zorc's full powered attack like it was nothing.

@Sixo Thank you for the contribution... The proof they acknowledge something like this in-verse is great information. This is a thread for all 3 series to be upgraded so if you have anything that can possibly help for any of the three feel free to contribute here whenever you have the opportunity, same with @Inverted if you have anything as well . That statement about the parallel worlds makes it more apparent that the verse is aware of such concepts.

@KukuiHello there. At the time there wasn't any proof that they were separated and thus there wasn't anything hinting at the Spirit World being 2-C. Neos Space is within the human world [Which I agree with] and most of the feats involve the human world so yeah that doesn't matter. However upon further inspection the other worlds are separate. Even Dark Magician Girl hinting the worlds were usually separated unless some crisis came into play... So there is proof the other Worlds are separate from the human world.

I agree that the feat's Universal at bare minimum since Yubel heavily hinted the destruction of the Universe but also that she was going to survive it alongside Judai.
 
The worlds being separated or not wasnt the reason why they werent accepted as universes before. They were debunked as even being universes to begin with other than the human world.

Neo Space, the example you just pointed out, is within the human world and is one of the 12 dimensions that literally orbits a planet. Another example would be the desert dimension that the dueling academy was sent to at one point, which was just that, a desert. Or arguably a 4-C sized structure since its debatable that there was a sun within that dimension.

Other than the human world, the 11 other dimensions were disproven as being universes due to that, not them being seperated or not.
 
My question is beside Neos Space, when were the others viewed as planets ? I watched the entire Dimension World Arc twice over for this revision just in-case I missed anything and there was nothing hinting they weren't "Universes" besides Neos Space, which is within the human world . Also the desert dimension was called "endless" by the way.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
There's stuff here that i'll need further looking into.

However, as far as the 12 dimensions go, SomebodyData in the past had blatantly debunked them being universes. Besides the human world of course. So anything involving this is nothing beyond Low 2-C.
Click to expand...
There's a secret technique known to only the most studious individuals called "not being the same argument as last time"
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
The worlds being separated or not wasnt the reason why they werent accepted as universes before. They were debunked as even being universes to begin with other than the human world.

Neo Space, the example you just pointed out, is within the human world and is one of the 12 dimensions that literally orbits a planet. Another example would be the desert dimension that the dueling academy was sent to at one point, which was just that, a desert. Or arguably a 4-C sized structure since its debatable that there was a sun within that dimension.

Other than the human world, the 11 other dimensions were disproven as being universes due to that, not them being seperated or not.
Click to expand...
That's literally because one of them isn't separate though....
 
I agree with Yobo. It would help if I knew specifically why they weren't regarded as universes so I can properly denounce it. I still believe the feat(s) is still in the tier 3-2 [3-A to Low 2-C] range, just whether or not it's 2-C is up to how well Data's argument stacks up.
 
Okay so I see his argument. It's basing on all twelve dimensions having the same size , Neo Space, and based on the desert dimension. That can be safely countered [but again remember I don't mind Low 2-C being used if this isn't accepted as a good argument against it] :

- The Desert Dimension is clearly bigger as we see a starry sky in the background. Remember the Dimensions, apart from Neo Space are separated from the human world according to the scientists who studied the dimensions and aren't suppose to be in the same world , meaning they have a separate sky and stars unless told otherwise

- Desert Dimensions was described by the very people who are actively researching the dimensions for most of the series as being "Endless" in size so it containing a desert doesn't neccessarily matter.

- Neos Space is a part of the human world, the others were directly stated as separate so Neo Space is the sole exception.

In-fact when the Twelve Dimensions were being fused Neos Space wasn't shown to be fused , only the ones that were stated to be separate... So I believe it's hinted that Neos Space & The Human World are within one Dimension [But viewed as the same Dimension] and the others are separate and could be seen as a Universe perhaps.
 
Oh no Yugioh revisions

before cursed Tier 2 discussions get the thread closed I'd like to bring up the scene where Odion and Joey were struck by lightning for daring to insult Ra.

And then Atem taking a blast from Ra a few episodes later.

Would scale to most major characters in DM so.
 
Well for the desert dimension, we dont see a starry sky unless im missing something. I've only ever seen a sun being arguably in there, which even if it checked out, would only make it a 4-C sized structure at best.

Neo space being an exception is reasonable, but the problem is, Neo Space and the Desert dimensions having their sizes put into question brings the legitimacy of the other dimensions's sizes in question too. Especially since we never see all of the dimensions to begin with, they're just assumed to be universed sized. Since 2 of them have already been called out, it increases the burden of proof even more on the other dimensions being universed sized.

Also, just to point out, Somebody had already taken into account the whole "dimensions being researched by scientists" and the like and had concluded that it was just guesswork and assumptions on their part. Why? Again, i'll let him answer this when he gets here as he'll answer his own points much better than I could.
 
It was in a few of the ending cutscenes and some of the shots from the first time they visit the dimension.

How would it be considered guesswork when they've been researching it for years upon years since the beginning of the series of GX ? You would think they would have more than enough credibility due to being the lead researchers of that line of work in-verse.

I would ask more but it's more appropriate for Data to answer that.
 
Bump. Also during the Yugioh Spirit World the " Spirit World " is referred to be a parallel universe to the human world during the Waking Dragons, so maybe the full Spirit World is a parallel universe but it's twelve dimensions aren't ? This would make some of the stuff from the original Duel Monsters much higher :

Yami: They are. Believe me. Somehow a doorway has been opened up, and monsters from a parallel universe have entered into *our* world-- (amused, somewhat teasing) unless you've got a *better* explanation?

Also the marks of the Crimson Dragon and the Signers was referred to being connected to all the energy of the universe by Goodwin... This is from S1 BTW:

Goodwin and Jack are standing before the Stair of the Crimson Dragon. Goodwin: Jack, allow me to shed some light. I am the three-hundred-and-sixtieth Guardian of the Star. Throughout history, my order has been known by many names; 'The Guardians of Peace', 'The Servants to the Stars'. We have sworn to maintain balance in the universe by taking-- the Oath of Iliaster. Jack: The *what*-now? Goodwin: It is the power that gives everything in nature its inner essence and outward form. The universe- energy- mankind- Iliaster is the power flowing through all of these things, binding them together. Jack: So it's *glue*. You swore an allegience to magic *glue*. Goodwin: Joke all you want, but that Mark on your arm? It means you're part of something much greater. And if your friend Yusei really *does* have a Mark, then he's part of it, too. This is from the dub but it supports the subs statement so I am still going to use it as evidence . If you want to hear the quote yourself: https://youtu.be/jZHOahNw7TE [10:36 to 11:14]

Also in the same token the Crimson Star , which the 5Ds cast scales to via embodying a fifth of it at least was referred to as to "govern all creation" and even the likes of Jack's Dragon was stated as capable of affecting creation with it's power... So it's surprisingly consistent. Goodwin was going to recreate creation with ththe power of the Crimson Dragon and destroy it with the Power of the Dark Signers [This is all Sub BTW]

This is S1 Signers BTW. I got this from a transcript site so it is interesting to say the least.
 
Bump. Since there seems to be 5 pieces of evidence for Universal Level+ total from all 3 series... It seems there is enough to at least start working for justifications on the profiles that'd be affected. Luckily I already started . I haven't done the other Signers or the more key figures from the original Duel Monsters but they'd scale to Stardust who'd scale to Red Dragon Archfiend who has a creation affecting feat plus scales somewhat to the Crimson Star which governs all creation and in the dub the signers are described as having the energy to bind the universe together , and at bare minimum Judai via Stardust's feat in BBT. So there is enough consistency to warrant the tier... Much more than before.... And that's why I got started so early making a blog which houses all the changes.
 
Bump. Also....

Involvement with the Crimson Star, you know the guys who was battling the Signers in the First Season prior to the Dark Signers , for example the Knight that fought Akiza and the Psychologist who fought Luna/Ruka ? [and the Crimson Star has a Low 2-C statement in Sub and Dub ?] ... Well... They are a part of Yilaster, and they were gaining power from the Crimson Star to fight them . But each of them stomped the ones they were suppose to fight against and didn't even used anywhere near the full extent of the power of their chosen duelist [sans Ruka but that was more for technical reasons]
 
Sixo Bullets said:
Interesting. I think this looks fine and consistent at a glance.
I think Universal Yu-Gi-Oh makes a lot of sense and that a multiverse is consistent. The original series also doesn't have to scale to Jaden and such as their Millennium Items can support an alternate reality. There's also this statement and Zorc creating the Shadow Realm.

Another thing about Nightshroud is that he should logically be Tier 2 himself, as he is the creator of an alternate reality. I'll try to talk more about that in a separate thread though.
Click to expand...
4kids dub =/= accurate.
 
Only 2 pieces of evidence are from the toonami dub (which I only even used for consistency sake). The others I got from the subbed, which there is at least 4 pieces supporting Low 2-C from the Sub.

@SomebodyData .... Besides the Shadow Realm stuff which I'm not using to argue this tier anyways.
 
Pretty significant bump. Okay... So far ... Here is the support for Tier 2 Yu-Gi-Oh! :

  • [Credit to Sixto for telling me that episode 147 was so important]: The Spirit World is referred to be a parallel universe to the human world in the dub during the Waking Dragons arc explicitly and the sub reveals that the Spirit World and the Human World depending on one another. Meaning that any feat of destroying the human world (AKA The Universe) is treated as affecting the Spirit World.
  • What the above means is that meaning destroying one destroys the other, ergo the feat of destroying the Universe is actually 2-C instead of Low 2-C. The Sub also goes into detail in the very same arc after the Spirit World is mentioned about the theories of parallel universes proving the concept that the Spirit World is a parallel universe and that "world" in context is referring to the whole universe, not the planet. This has nothing to do with the "twelve dimensions".
  • Satorious is described as capable of affecting the Universe several times including when he uses a card embuded with his energy... He was stated as going to destroy the Universe at a few intervals especially but was only stopped by Jaden.. this scales to S2 Jaden and Above. Neos scales as he punted Satorious' attack.
  • Satorious was hinted several times as capable of affecting the universe, including with his Light Barrier
  • The Light of Destruction's Will, which Satorious was empowered by, survived the creation/destruction of the Universe several times before this.
  • Yubel outright was going to destroy the Universe and hinting her and Jaden would be the only survivors.
  • The World of Darkness was stated to be the parallel of the human world and is far superior to Yubel separately without Jaden. His cards are depictions of the creation of the universe and is using the very power of the World of Darkness in his deck.
  • Yugi scales above Judai whether we are referring to sub or dub because both blatantly decree that Yugi's far, far superior to him up until the Graduation Duel in the Fifth Season. Even the non-canon games support it like decreeing Yugi as the strongest and treating EoS Yuya as being on the same tier as Jaden & Yusei.
  • The Crimson Star was blatantly stated in the 5Ds to be on a Universal Level during the first season in the Dub, the Crimson Star was described as governing all creation , and in sub/dub the fodder were empowered by it to fight the Signers during the first seasons [EX: The Psychologist who fought Luna and the Knight who fought Akiza] . The Sub describes both Red Dragon Archfiend and it's evolved forms as capable of affecting Creation which the Signer Dragons scale to. The Signer Dragons [Bases] at least scale > Judai as of Bonds Beyond Time, which would scale to the S1 Signers seeing how the Signer Dragon's Bases don't get stronger over time & All the Signer Dragon's Base are comparable in power.
 
Not that I disagree with 2-C, but if one world's destruction destroys the other that's a chain reaction feat, not a 2-C AP feat, so that would be Low 2-C for that feat.
 
That part however is semi inconsistent [as the Spirit World was destroyed once yet the human world was perfectly fine and in 5Ds when the Spirit World was decaying... The human world didn't get affected so I believe that part of the definition is inconsistent] but I wanted to use it just in-case . The whole point is that the Spirit World was referred to be a parallel world to the human world and in referennce to it talked about parallel realities and timelines. This is prior to the Twelve Dimensions so this definition precedes and supports it [as someone who is a denizen of the Spirit World for thousands of years credibility >>>> a Scientist studying it for about 2-3 years credibility] and is describing the whole Spirit World's nature, not just the Twelve Dimensions which was stated to only be a part of the Spirit World.
 
Like I said, I don't have much time to respond so I'll be using mostly anecdotes to explain, first.

Waking the Dragon: If the statement is dub only, then its irrelevant.

If its a chain reaction event then the destruction of Earth (5-B) is the only part that would actually scale. If I remember correctly, even that is never stated to be through one hit (Heck doesn't he scale to a 5-C feat? That is enough to warrant planetary destruction anyways). I think you may confusing connected/parallel worlds with parallel timelines. If it was the latter then the Spirit World would just be a version of Earth, it sounds more like both worlds coexist with each other (Kinda like Aether and Dark Aether.) Or it could just be a quitlted multiverse (Quite literally solves all the inconsistencies in regards to size).

Didn't we already discuss how the Light of Destruction / Satorisis was gonna be an overtime feat?

Yubel mentioned destroying the world, never heard of her destroying the universe (save for non-canon), with Super Poly (not scalable) no?

The World of Darkness is actually confirmed to be a parallel world in the sense of co-existing alongside it. (Near the end) This actually just straight up proves my point, as it means they're talking about it in a coexistence sense rather than alt. timelines.

Governing all existence =/= Low 2-C or 3-A. That'll be like making Frieza 3-C because he is the ruler of the Milky Way or a King 6-B for being a King.
 
The point is that Satorious has statements of affecting the Universe outright instantaneously that excludes the feats currently known and the "over time" feat was based off of some theory made by Pegasus and the fact the LoD is some black hole made of entropy which was proven false as it is a primordial entity that predates the creation of the Universe and has survived it being created and destroyed numerous times. It isn't entropy nor is it a black hole.


There is other context to that scan about the World of Darkness so I'll post that whenever I have the time to do so.

The Super Poly card scales as it was created by a fodder near the beginning of the Dimensions arc. Yubel did state she would end the universe with the card and that her and Jaden would survive it.


Governing existence was in regards to its' control over creation as Goodwin makes mention of later on , which in the dub is identified as the universe. Plus several statements about the signer dragons having the power to affect creation means they have more feats to back off to either way.
 
The 2nd Existential Seed


Just cause Satorious can affect the universe does not make him universal in terms of power.

The dub regarding something as a universe is irrelevant if the original sub did not mention such a thing as the 4kids dubs are infamous for being inaccurate to the source material and having governorship over the universe does not make a character universal cause with that logic king furry would be planet level cause he governs the earth.

Yubel and other god tier characters should be in that league of power due to the fusion of the universe that alot of the other god tiers should scale to.


Darkness as a character is the embodiment of the concept of darkness in the yugioh show and should be beyond any thing shown prior and or later in the series due to that.
 
I agree for the most part all that's needed is the Super Fusion to really advance this upgrade for the subbed aspect... Because it only scales to the God tiers. I just really wanted to prove Satorious and the Light of Destruction are first.

Satorious controls the fate of the universe explicitly and literally with his powers. He was also called a universal threat twice, in the beginning of the arc snd after he was defeated so I doubt it was made in the sense of not being universal or an exaggeration, and outright stated he was going to destroy the universe when Jaden was defeated, and was empowered by someone who survived the creation and destruction of the universe many times over... so all of this together was hinted to make Satorious Universal.
 
The 2nd Existential Seed


Satorious himself is not universally and as it was the power of the light of destruction that made him act that way in the arc and have that much power but still would not be even close to god tiers in anyway as neos easily defected a blast from him and mind you this is base neos deflecting the blast.


Mind you Satorious himself is still mortal and his body should comparable to other powerful duelist like mako and it was explicit that the light of destruction itself was the cause for his behavior and power.


Satorious should not even scale to lower tier gods like exodia due a exodia powered up adrian gecko pressuring and nerving yubel a much powerful entity than neos and a controlled Satorious.

I said mako as a example as i could think anyone else to compare him to from the og series as most of the millennium item owners are stated to be more powerful than him
 
That's my point. If Satorious with the Light amp was held off by Neos than it isn't an anti feat for the Light so much as a feat for Neos.

You do realize it was stated outright that the Neo Spacians were needed by Jaden to even fight the Light of Destruction ? So there is ways to scale the Neo Spacians , and especially Neos to that level and make a significant scaling chain with just the top tiers and then going to the god tiers.

Also regardless of Satorious being empowered by the Light it was still a level he was at with an amp from the Light , which Neos scales to via deflecting a blast from Satorious while empowered by the Light.

The point is to show that it is pretty scalable to from S2 of GX to S5 of GX, which scales to 5Ds and Duel Mondters.
 
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