- 57
- 5
I sincerely hope so, because I do not want to have to deal with that.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
About 2-B Alien X
- Thread starter ProfessorKukui4Life
- Start date
- Status
- 541
- 59
1st: I never claimed he was omnipotent in the way you are implying, so no need to get angry. Alien X is considered omnipotent in Ben 10,is what I was getting at. Alien X is omnipotent in the sense that he can "do anything" that someone or something is capable of in the Ben 10 series. Which is also what the authors have said, + what Azmuth has said during Ultimate Alien. My point is that by Alien X being refered to as omnipotent, it implies he is above everyone and everything else in the Ben 10 verse, not that he is literally the strongest character in all of fiction.
2nd, yes it is mentioned, at 13:55 by Ben's lawyer. The episode Universe Vs Tennyson is season 6 episode 8 / episode 58 of Ben 10 Omniverse. However Ben 10 Omniverse episode "And Then There Were None" where the CTB is used is season 6 episode 1 / Omniverse episode 51.
Ben 10 omniverse episode "Ben Again" is season 2 episode 8 or Omniverse episode 18. So you are wrong Universe VS tennyson takes place after the CTB was used and after Eon almost destroyed the cosmos.
2nd, yes it is mentioned, at 13:55 by Ben's lawyer. The episode Universe Vs Tennyson is season 6 episode 8 / episode 58 of Ben 10 Omniverse. However Ben 10 Omniverse episode "And Then There Were None" where the CTB is used is season 6 episode 1 / Omniverse episode 51.
Ben 10 omniverse episode "Ben Again" is season 2 episode 8 or Omniverse episode 18. So you are wrong Universe VS tennyson takes place after the CTB was used and after Eon almost destroyed the cosmos.
- 57
- 5
@Doorinmyhouse
1st: Sorry for getting a little heated, it's a little frustrating to have to hear people call Alien X omnipotent despite the ample evidence to say otherwise. Also, in the original comment I was refering to, you said that Celestialsapiens were stated as omnipotent, without further explanation, so I jumped to conclusions.
2nd: The episode where you referred to Ben's Galvan lawyer stating Celestialsapiens to be omnipotent was Ben Again, not Universe Vs Tennyson, which was what I was pointing out as false. You are indeed correct about the order in which the episodes take place though, so I apologise for having my facts wrong about that.
1st: Sorry for getting a little heated, it's a little frustrating to have to hear people call Alien X omnipotent despite the ample evidence to say otherwise. Also, in the original comment I was refering to, you said that Celestialsapiens were stated as omnipotent, without further explanation, so I jumped to conclusions.
2nd: The episode where you referred to Ben's Galvan lawyer stating Celestialsapiens to be omnipotent was Ben Again, not Universe Vs Tennyson, which was what I was pointing out as false. You are indeed correct about the order in which the episodes take place though, so I apologise for having my facts wrong about that.
- 16,960
- 4,860
- Thread starter
- #124
Absorbing the power of 5 regular aliens and a Celestialsapien's are 2 ridiculously different things DragonicDoom. It's completely uncomparable.
>The omnitrix is able to absorb and store the DNA of a Celestialsapien and transform the user into a fully-grown fully powered Celestialsapien instantounsly, so the notion that nobody and no machine can absorb the full power of a celestialsapien or have faster development than a celestialsapien is plain wrong.
Super False Equivalancy. Like, ridiculously false.
Absorbing the DNA of an alien and absorbing their power are 2 completely different things. That, and the Omnitrix doesnt absorb an aliens strength, it simply takes their DNA and replicates their abilities. Aggregor absorbs the actual strength out of an alien when absorbing their powers, weakening them.
>You dont need thousands of years to use their power, a baby Celestialsapien isnt weaker than an adult. It just doesnt have a personality, it remains stationary until it has 2 personalities
Yes, you do. For Celestialsapiens anyway. A Celestialsapien cannot use their power until they are considered to be developed. And they aren't remotely considered such until tens of thousands of years go by after they are born in the Forge of Creation. This goes for their personalities as well.
Osmosians need to train in order to use the energy they've absorbed effectively and maintain the rate of absorbtion, depending on the amount they are absorbing. They cannot absorb any amount of power they want and use it immediately. Aggregor being able to develop a celestialsapiens power more quickly than a celestialsapien itself does is ridiculous and has 0 basis to suggest he could.
>Aggregor was able to absorb the full power of the 5 aliens from Andromedia immediately, with no training.
Which is absolutely nothing compared to absorbing a Celestialspaiens power. Let alone tier 2 power in general.
>The omnitrix is able to absorb and store the DNA of a Celestialsapien and transform the user into a fully-grown fully powered Celestialsapien instantounsly, so the notion that nobody and no machine can absorb the full power of a celestialsapien or have faster development than a celestialsapien is plain wrong.
Super False Equivalancy. Like, ridiculously false.
Absorbing the DNA of an alien and absorbing their power are 2 completely different things. That, and the Omnitrix doesnt absorb an aliens strength, it simply takes their DNA and replicates their abilities. Aggregor absorbs the actual strength out of an alien when absorbing their powers, weakening them.
>You dont need thousands of years to use their power, a baby Celestialsapien isnt weaker than an adult. It just doesnt have a personality, it remains stationary until it has 2 personalities
Yes, you do. For Celestialsapiens anyway. A Celestialsapien cannot use their power until they are considered to be developed. And they aren't remotely considered such until tens of thousands of years go by after they are born in the Forge of Creation. This goes for their personalities as well.
Osmosians need to train in order to use the energy they've absorbed effectively and maintain the rate of absorbtion, depending on the amount they are absorbing. They cannot absorb any amount of power they want and use it immediately. Aggregor being able to develop a celestialsapiens power more quickly than a celestialsapien itself does is ridiculous and has 0 basis to suggest he could.
>Aggregor was able to absorb the full power of the 5 aliens from Andromedia immediately, with no training.
Which is absolutely nothing compared to absorbing a Celestialspaiens power. Let alone tier 2 power in general.
- 16,960
- 4,860
- Thread starter
- #125
Also no, we aren't going to use "Omnipotent" as any sort of evidence here. Whatsoever.
We are very strict when it comes to Omnipotence here in general and it's clearly obvious that is nothing but a vague term used to describe god-like powers within a respective verse. And im pretty sure that being able to make thoughts reality and being able to rewrite universal concepts would very much count as an "omnipotent" power compared to everything else in Ben 10.
We are very strict when it comes to Omnipotence here in general and it's clearly obvious that is nothing but a vague term used to describe god-like powers within a respective verse. And im pretty sure that being able to make thoughts reality and being able to rewrite universal concepts would very much count as an "omnipotent" power compared to everything else in Ben 10.
- 57
- 5
@ProfessorKukui4Life
You make good points on almost everything said there. I agree that yes, omnipotent is in no way a good argument and its pretty clear that its hyperbole to describe god-like power. The one thing I disagree on is Aggregor kinda has to be able to at least attempt absorbing Celestialsapien power because as Doorinmyhouse said, what would be the point of the entire storyline if he couldn't? The fact that even Paradox, who has at least spent some time around Celestialsapiens before this considering their 500 light year restraining order on him, says that he's a threat should he touch the baby Celestialsapien means there must be some stakes here.
Also, this may not be the best place for it, but how does Dimensional Tiering factor into a character's overall Tier? Is it as simple as "You're 5th Dimensional, therefore you're High 2-A"?
You make good points on almost everything said there. I agree that yes, omnipotent is in no way a good argument and its pretty clear that its hyperbole to describe god-like power. The one thing I disagree on is Aggregor kinda has to be able to at least attempt absorbing Celestialsapien power because as Doorinmyhouse said, what would be the point of the entire storyline if he couldn't? The fact that even Paradox, who has at least spent some time around Celestialsapiens before this considering their 500 light year restraining order on him, says that he's a threat should he touch the baby Celestialsapien means there must be some stakes here.
Also, this may not be the best place for it, but how does Dimensional Tiering factor into a character's overall Tier? Is it as simple as "You're 5th Dimensional, therefore you're High 2-A"?
- 541
- 59
Celestialsapiens cannot use their power until they are developed, those limitation does not apply to everyone that wants to use their power. Ben doesnt need to wait thousands of years to use Alien X. Osmosians dont need to train or wait in order to use the energy they have absorbed effectiveley and maintain the rate of absorption, Aggregor did that 5 times without any training. Kevin that everytime he touched Ben's watch as a kid, and 1 time during Ultimate Alien.
Osmosians not being able to absorb Celestialsapien power immediately, but every other alien power is ridiculous and has 0 basis to suggest so.
>Which is absolutely nothing compared to absorbing a Celestialsapiens power. Let alone tier 2 power in general.
Feedback, despite being equal to base Aggregor can instantly absorb universal level of energy, concentrate it and redirect it casually. Why would Feedback be able to absorb power literally infinitely above his paygrade, but not Aggregor, even though Aggregor has been stated to be capable of doing so throghout dozens of episodes??
You have no basis for Aggregor being incapable of doing something that the entire plot of dozens of episodes is dependant on, him absorbing a baby celestialsapien. Paradox and Azmuth had literally no reason to ever fear someone absorbing Celestialsapien power, if it was impossible. Paradox had literally no reason to hide the Map of infinity if no one could absorb celestialsapiens.
I have already explained that Celestialsapiens are considered Omnipotent in the Ben 10 verse and ONLY in the Ben 10 verse, it does not mean that they are literally above anything else inall of fiction. Just that they are above anything in the Ben 10 series, which is consistent with how they have been portrayed throughout Alien Force and Ultimate Alien. So yes we are going to use "omnipotent" as evidence, just not in the way you thought I was.
They are still considered Omnipotent, in episodes that takes place after the CTB was used and after Eon almost destroyed all of cosmos with the Chrono Navigator was my point. Which would not make sense if they were weaker than both.
Not sure how Celestialsapiens not rewriting universal concepts disprove that Celestialsapiens aren't considered omnipotent in the Ben 10 series, even though they have been stated as such on numerous occasions, both inverse and by WOG??? Them not having universal conceptual feats does not have any relavance here, I never claimed they did. That is a super red herring man. They also kinda do have conceptual manupulation, they altered the artwork of the series 3 times and recreated time after the Anihilaargh destroyed it.
Osmosians not being able to absorb Celestialsapien power immediately, but every other alien power is ridiculous and has 0 basis to suggest so.
>Which is absolutely nothing compared to absorbing a Celestialsapiens power. Let alone tier 2 power in general.
Feedback, despite being equal to base Aggregor can instantly absorb universal level of energy, concentrate it and redirect it casually. Why would Feedback be able to absorb power literally infinitely above his paygrade, but not Aggregor, even though Aggregor has been stated to be capable of doing so throghout dozens of episodes??
You have no basis for Aggregor being incapable of doing something that the entire plot of dozens of episodes is dependant on, him absorbing a baby celestialsapien. Paradox and Azmuth had literally no reason to ever fear someone absorbing Celestialsapien power, if it was impossible. Paradox had literally no reason to hide the Map of infinity if no one could absorb celestialsapiens.
I have already explained that Celestialsapiens are considered Omnipotent in the Ben 10 verse and ONLY in the Ben 10 verse, it does not mean that they are literally above anything else inall of fiction. Just that they are above anything in the Ben 10 series, which is consistent with how they have been portrayed throughout Alien Force and Ultimate Alien. So yes we are going to use "omnipotent" as evidence, just not in the way you thought I was.
They are still considered Omnipotent, in episodes that takes place after the CTB was used and after Eon almost destroyed all of cosmos with the Chrono Navigator was my point. Which would not make sense if they were weaker than both.
Not sure how Celestialsapiens not rewriting universal concepts disprove that Celestialsapiens aren't considered omnipotent in the Ben 10 series, even though they have been stated as such on numerous occasions, both inverse and by WOG??? Them not having universal conceptual feats does not have any relavance here, I never claimed they did. That is a super red herring man. They also kinda do have conceptual manupulation, they altered the artwork of the series 3 times and recreated time after the Anihilaargh destroyed it.
- 57
- 5
@Doorinmyhouse
Thank you for clearing it up, just please when you use "omnipotent" as evidence state that it's "omnipotent=god-like power" and not "omnipotence=Tier-0".
I feel like things have gotten a little muddled at this point so I'll just try and reassert my opinion on the original intent of this thread. I agree with ProfessorKukui4Life's overall argument that the Chrononavigator isn't a good base for Alien X to scale off of based on the fact it's something that was only given 2-B power in Omniverse, after the whole "greatest power" statements. My problem was with Everlasting's point that I interpretted as "Celestialsapiens must rely on hax, not raw power/attack potency because how else could Aggregor absorb it?" I misunderstood what they were saying, believing they meant that Osmosians can only absorb hax, not raw power despite ample evidence to counter that. Once again, I will say that I agree with ProfessorKukui4life's 2nd Proposal.
Thank you for clearing it up, just please when you use "omnipotent" as evidence state that it's "omnipotent=god-like power" and not "omnipotence=Tier-0".
I feel like things have gotten a little muddled at this point so I'll just try and reassert my opinion on the original intent of this thread. I agree with ProfessorKukui4Life's overall argument that the Chrononavigator isn't a good base for Alien X to scale off of based on the fact it's something that was only given 2-B power in Omniverse, after the whole "greatest power" statements. My problem was with Everlasting's point that I interpretted as "Celestialsapiens must rely on hax, not raw power/attack potency because how else could Aggregor absorb it?" I misunderstood what they were saying, believing they meant that Osmosians can only absorb hax, not raw power despite ample evidence to counter that. Once again, I will say that I agree with ProfessorKukui4life's 2nd Proposal.
- 541
- 59
Max mentions that the Omnitrix is the most powerful weapon in the universe at 1:15 In Ben 10 Omniverse episode Store 23'. The episode takes place after episode "Ben Again" where Eon almost destroys all of casuality with the Chrono Navigator. Note that Max was present when Eon almost destroyed all of casuality, so he knows about the Chrono Navigator's power. So the omnitrix being the most powerful weapon in the unvierse IS mentioned even in Omniverse, even AFTER the Chrono Navigator is mentioned as being capable of destroying all of casuality. In addition to that, Celestialsapiens are still mentioned as being omnipotent in Universe vs Tennyson and in Weapon XI, which both take place after Ben Again. (By omnipotent, I obviously mean "all powerful/ can do anything" within the Ben 10 verse, as Omnipotent literally means " can do anything". Im not saying Alien X is tier-0, just that he can do anything that is possible for anything & anyone in Ben 10. )
So yeah, Everlasting and ProfessorKukui4life are wrong about that. And are wrong about fodder aliens not being able to absorb energy infinitely more powerful than themselves, as disproven by Feedback casually absorbing universal energy and redirecting it despite being nowhere near universal by his own. So why would Aggregor not be capable of doing the same, when the entire plot of that arc was fully dependant and centered around preventing Aggregor from absorbing the baby Celestialsapien. And why would Paradox hide the map of infinity if no one could absorb celestialsapien power?
So yeah, Everlasting and ProfessorKukui4life are wrong about that. And are wrong about fodder aliens not being able to absorb energy infinitely more powerful than themselves, as disproven by Feedback casually absorbing universal energy and redirecting it despite being nowhere near universal by his own. So why would Aggregor not be capable of doing the same, when the entire plot of that arc was fully dependant and centered around preventing Aggregor from absorbing the baby Celestialsapien. And why would Paradox hide the map of infinity if no one could absorb celestialsapien power?
- 541
- 59
@ProfessorKukui4life @Everlasting
All the arguments I have seen so far against multiversal Alien X work entirely on assumptions and you guys shifting the burden of proof.
All the arguments I have seen so far against multiversal Alien X work entirely on assumptions and you guys shifting the burden of proof.
- You are assuming that after Ultimate Alien the writers no longer considered Alien X the most powerful thing in the series, without providing any evidence for this. Where is the evidence for this other than " I feel like it's important to mention that I highly doubt the statements about Alien X were made with the Chrono Navigator in mind." ?? What you feel like is not evidence for anything. Where is the evidence? A baseless guess doesnt mean much.
- Then you are assuming Aggregor cant immediately use alien power he has just absorbed, and needs to train to do so, despite him doing otherwise on numerous occasions. Then you are assuming that it's not possible to use and develop the full power of a celestialsapien quicker than a celestialsapien, despite the Omnitrix doing just that.
- And you are assuming Paradox and Azmuth were worried for nothing throughout the entirety of Aggregor's arc, despite both of them being among the most intelligent beings in the series. This is a huge baseless claim that require so many assumptions for it to work. And you also assume that weak aliens cant absorb infinite power, despite Feedback doing exactly that.
- The burden of proof is on you and always on you to prove all your claims are legit, since you are the one making those claims first. The burden of proof is not on me or anyone else to disprove the claims you brought up. And you have failed to provide a single evidence for those claims.
- 8,846
- 9,507
I now vote for at least low 2-C likely 2-B.
- 16,960
- 4,860
- Thread starter
- #132
Rebuttals
>Ben doesnt need to wait thousands of years to use Alien X.
Really bad point here. Alien X isn't a baby celestialsapien, it's already fully developed. Not seeing what the point was in even mentioning this.
>Osmosians dont need to train or wait in order to use the energy they have absorbed effectiveley and maintain the rate of Absorption
Considering how this is blatantly stated on the Ben 10 Wikia, and still is, this is something that isn't just made up out of nowhere.
>Aggregor did that 5 times without any training. Kevin that everytime he touched Ben's watch as a kid, and 1 time during Ultimate Alien.
Then that means they can absorb that much power without needing to train through it. Simple as that. It really doesn't change a thing I said.
Unless you want to seriously argue that absorbing the power of fodder aliens means you can absorb something thats on higher degrees of infinity...
>Osmosians not being able to absorb Celestialsapien power immediately, but every other alien power is ridiculous and has 0 basis to suggest so.
Because Celestialsapiens are >>>>> other alien powers. Rewriting Universal Concepts, Making ideas become reality, altering universes on a whim. Hell, even making black holes. Point to another alien that isn't referred to having god like hax abilities within verse.
That, and like everything else, we assume a negative until a positive is proven.
>Feedback, despite being equal to base Aggregor can instantly absorb universal level of energy, concentrate it and redirect it casually.
You do realize we give Feedback a Tier 2 rating, right?
"At most Universe level+ via Energy Manipulation (Conductoids are able to absorb, manipulate, project, and redirect all forms of energy, Feedback absorbed the energy of a detonated Anihilaarg, which releases enough energy to destroy and create an entire universe as well as create a timestream from which branching timelines diverge)"
Feedback IS a tier 2 being, unlike Osmosians. And has actual feats of using his energy absorption to his benefit at that degree.
>Why would Feedback be able to absorb power literally infinitely above his paygrade, but not Aggregor, even though Aggregor has been stated to be capable of doing so throghout dozens of episodes??
Simple. Because Feedback has actual FEATS of absorbing that amount of energy without any issue. Aggregor doesn't. Feats >>>>> statements as priority. That, and again, Feedback is considered a Tier 2 being. Unless you want to argue him being Low 2-C is an outlier, Feedback is very much so far above Aggregor.
Whats also being inconveniently ignored here is that Osmosians also can't absorb the full value of an Alien's strength or abilities but only use them at 1/10th of the originals. Which makes the notion of them absorbing infinitely superior energy even more questionable.
>You have no basis for Aggregor being incapable of doing something that the entire plot of dozens of episodes is dependant on, him absorbing a baby celestialsapien.
It being plot-based doesn't matter. What matters is the context of the narrative.
>Paradox and Azmuth had literally no reason to ever fear someone absorbing Celestialsapien power, if it was impossible. Paradox had literally no reason to hide the Map of infinity if no one could absorb celestialsapiens.
Or there's the simple possibility that Paradox and Azmuth overestimated Aggregor's absorption capabilities? They were more focused on the fact that baby celestialsapiens are helpless, not that an Osmosian's power absorption is that great.
Just because they feared the chance of Aggregor gaining its power does not mean that they couldn't have overexaggerated the extent of Aggregor's and Osmosian's power absorption. There IS such a thing as taking a threat more seriously than it actually is.
>I have already explained that Celestialsapiens are considered Omnipotent in the Ben 10 verse and ONLY in the Ben 10 verse, it does not mean that they are literally above anything else inall of fiction. Just that they are above anything in the Ben 10 series, which is consistent with how they have been portrayed throughout Alien Force and Ultimate Alien. So yes we are going to use "omnipotent" as evidence, just not in the way you thought I was.
No, thats exactly what we're not going to do. We're not going to twist the meaning of "omnipotence" just so that it fits your narrative.
"Omnipotence" is vague. Period. In-universe or out-universe. Its literal only purpose is to describe a characters powers as being god-like compared to the everyday fodder that exists in a respective verse. Thats it.
And like I and Ever said, making ideas reality, altering universes, and rewritting universal concepts would most definitely fit under that category of what is "omnipotent" in Ben 10.
>They are still considered Omnipotent, in episodes that takes place after the CTB was used and after Eon almost destroyed all of cosmos with the Chrono Navigator was my point. Which would not make sense if they were weaker than both.
See above. It doesn't matter.
>Not sure how Celestialsapiens not rewriting universal concepts disprove that Celestialsapiens aren't considered omnipotent in the Ben 10 series
But...they can rewrite universal concepts. We never said they couldn't. What we are saying is that them rewritting universal concepts WOULD be considered whats "omnipotent" in Ben 10.
>Max mentions that the Omnitrix is the most powerful weapon in the universe at 1:15 In Ben 10 Omniverse episode Store 23'. The episode takes place after episode "Ben Again" where Eon almost destroys all of casuality with the Chrono Navigator.
This has absolutely NOTHING to do with whats being talked about here. At all.
>In addition to that, Celestialsapiens are still mentioned as being omnipotent in Universe vs Tennyson and in Weapon XI
And like I said above, this doesn't matter. We aren't going to twist the context of "omnipotent" up so that people can wank a character. Either your omnipotent or your not. There's no "other meaning" to it.
Unless your tier 0, "Omnipotent" means absolutely nothing besides describing a god-like power. Period. Stop trying to twist it.
Everything else seems like pointeless repeated nonsense of what was already said, just spread across 3 different pointless replies.
>Ben doesnt need to wait thousands of years to use Alien X.
Really bad point here. Alien X isn't a baby celestialsapien, it's already fully developed. Not seeing what the point was in even mentioning this.
>Osmosians dont need to train or wait in order to use the energy they have absorbed effectiveley and maintain the rate of Absorption
Considering how this is blatantly stated on the Ben 10 Wikia, and still is, this is something that isn't just made up out of nowhere.
>Aggregor did that 5 times without any training. Kevin that everytime he touched Ben's watch as a kid, and 1 time during Ultimate Alien.
Then that means they can absorb that much power without needing to train through it. Simple as that. It really doesn't change a thing I said.
Unless you want to seriously argue that absorbing the power of fodder aliens means you can absorb something thats on higher degrees of infinity...
>Osmosians not being able to absorb Celestialsapien power immediately, but every other alien power is ridiculous and has 0 basis to suggest so.
Because Celestialsapiens are >>>>> other alien powers. Rewriting Universal Concepts, Making ideas become reality, altering universes on a whim. Hell, even making black holes. Point to another alien that isn't referred to having god like hax abilities within verse.
That, and like everything else, we assume a negative until a positive is proven.
>Feedback, despite being equal to base Aggregor can instantly absorb universal level of energy, concentrate it and redirect it casually.
You do realize we give Feedback a Tier 2 rating, right?
"At most Universe level+ via Energy Manipulation (Conductoids are able to absorb, manipulate, project, and redirect all forms of energy, Feedback absorbed the energy of a detonated Anihilaarg, which releases enough energy to destroy and create an entire universe as well as create a timestream from which branching timelines diverge)"
Feedback IS a tier 2 being, unlike Osmosians. And has actual feats of using his energy absorption to his benefit at that degree.
>Why would Feedback be able to absorb power literally infinitely above his paygrade, but not Aggregor, even though Aggregor has been stated to be capable of doing so throghout dozens of episodes??
Simple. Because Feedback has actual FEATS of absorbing that amount of energy without any issue. Aggregor doesn't. Feats >>>>> statements as priority. That, and again, Feedback is considered a Tier 2 being. Unless you want to argue him being Low 2-C is an outlier, Feedback is very much so far above Aggregor.
Whats also being inconveniently ignored here is that Osmosians also can't absorb the full value of an Alien's strength or abilities but only use them at 1/10th of the originals. Which makes the notion of them absorbing infinitely superior energy even more questionable.
>You have no basis for Aggregor being incapable of doing something that the entire plot of dozens of episodes is dependant on, him absorbing a baby celestialsapien.
It being plot-based doesn't matter. What matters is the context of the narrative.
>Paradox and Azmuth had literally no reason to ever fear someone absorbing Celestialsapien power, if it was impossible. Paradox had literally no reason to hide the Map of infinity if no one could absorb celestialsapiens.
Or there's the simple possibility that Paradox and Azmuth overestimated Aggregor's absorption capabilities? They were more focused on the fact that baby celestialsapiens are helpless, not that an Osmosian's power absorption is that great.
Just because they feared the chance of Aggregor gaining its power does not mean that they couldn't have overexaggerated the extent of Aggregor's and Osmosian's power absorption. There IS such a thing as taking a threat more seriously than it actually is.
>I have already explained that Celestialsapiens are considered Omnipotent in the Ben 10 verse and ONLY in the Ben 10 verse, it does not mean that they are literally above anything else inall of fiction. Just that they are above anything in the Ben 10 series, which is consistent with how they have been portrayed throughout Alien Force and Ultimate Alien. So yes we are going to use "omnipotent" as evidence, just not in the way you thought I was.
No, thats exactly what we're not going to do. We're not going to twist the meaning of "omnipotence" just so that it fits your narrative.
"Omnipotence" is vague. Period. In-universe or out-universe. Its literal only purpose is to describe a characters powers as being god-like compared to the everyday fodder that exists in a respective verse. Thats it.
And like I and Ever said, making ideas reality, altering universes, and rewritting universal concepts would most definitely fit under that category of what is "omnipotent" in Ben 10.
>They are still considered Omnipotent, in episodes that takes place after the CTB was used and after Eon almost destroyed all of cosmos with the Chrono Navigator was my point. Which would not make sense if they were weaker than both.
See above. It doesn't matter.
>Not sure how Celestialsapiens not rewriting universal concepts disprove that Celestialsapiens aren't considered omnipotent in the Ben 10 series
But...they can rewrite universal concepts. We never said they couldn't. What we are saying is that them rewritting universal concepts WOULD be considered whats "omnipotent" in Ben 10.
>Max mentions that the Omnitrix is the most powerful weapon in the universe at 1:15 In Ben 10 Omniverse episode Store 23'. The episode takes place after episode "Ben Again" where Eon almost destroys all of casuality with the Chrono Navigator.
This has absolutely NOTHING to do with whats being talked about here. At all.
>In addition to that, Celestialsapiens are still mentioned as being omnipotent in Universe vs Tennyson and in Weapon XI
And like I said above, this doesn't matter. We aren't going to twist the context of "omnipotent" up so that people can wank a character. Either your omnipotent or your not. There's no "other meaning" to it.
Unless your tier 0, "Omnipotent" means absolutely nothing besides describing a god-like power. Period. Stop trying to twist it.
Everything else seems like pointeless repeated nonsense of what was already said, just spread across 3 different pointless replies.
- 16,960
- 4,860
- Thread starter
- #133
This thread is now getting very derailed from topics that have nothing to do with why I made this thread in the first place.
So that kinda has to stop.
So that kinda has to stop.
- 7,550
- 7,738
Having power and not being mature enough to use it are two different things. Other than avoiding multiple personalities from an adult, Osmosian's absorbing Baby Celestialsapien DNA is no different than absorbing any other being's powers.
Being powerful but susceptible to power absorbtion is just a lack of resistance. It's the reason why Parasite can absorb Superman's power in DC.
Being powerful but susceptible to power absorbtion is just a lack of resistance. It's the reason why Parasite can absorb Superman's power in DC.
- 16,960
- 4,860
- Thread starter
- #135
This is my response to the whole "lack of resistance" point. Celestialsapiens wouldn't need resistance to power absorption, its that if their strength was > everything else, then their sheer power would just make power absorption irrelevant.ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Think of this as like a get out of jail free card to the power instead of an actual resistance.
- 541
- 59
You are the one who said > Even Celestialsapiens themselves need tens of thousands of years after being born in order to even be considered developed before they can use their powers. So Aggregor being able to make use of them before they themselves can sounds very absurd to me, which wouldn't benefit Aggregor at all unless he was just absorbing their hax abilities''' When Ben is a clear example of not needing to wait any years to use it. The omnitrix can develop a Celestialsapien quicker than they can, no matter how you slice it.
>Considering how this is blatantly stated on the Ben 10 wikia, and still is, this isometht that isn't just made up out of nowhereOsmosians dont need to train or wait in order to use the energy they have absorbed effectiveley and maintain the rate of Absorption
So can you provide a source from the episode confirming this? The Ben 10 wiki does not have any source mentioning if this is from the Ben 10 episodes or from WOG. And you are still ignoring the several times Kevin and Aggregor didnt need to wait or train at all.
>Unless you want to seriously argue that absorbing the power of fodder aliens means you can absorb something thats on higher degrees of infinity...
Feedback can do that just fine, so why cant Aggregor, considering that was the entire plot of the episodes? Because you say so?
>That, and like everything else, we assume a negative until a positive is proven.
So you're just going to ignore the entire plot of the episodes? Ok.
>You do realize we give Feedback a Tier 2 rating, right?
Yes I do realize that, however Feedback is only 2-c with energy absorption, which was my point you missed. His own strength and durability is nowhere near 2-c, was my point. Feedback is equal to Aggregor, so the argument that " fodder aliens cant absorb infinite energy" is blatantly false. Aggregor is stated to be able to absorb infinite power, so we accept the statement, just like we accept universal statement in other fiction. By your logic, most DBS characters arent universal, since those stats rely entirely on statements.
>Simple. Because Feedback has actual FEATS of absorbing that amount of energy without any issue. Aggregor doesn't. Feats >>>>> statements as priority.
So you are unwilling to accept any statements, except when they are made on the Ben 10 wiki with no sources attatched? Goku, Vegeta, Hit etc aren't universal, since they have no feats showing they can destroy a universe?
>It being plot-based doesn't matter. What matters is the context of the narrative.
Your argument solely relies on you ignoring the context of the narrative with no valid explanation given why.
>There IS such a thing as taking a threat more seriously than it actually is.
So Paradox and Azmuth, 2 characters not know for massively overestmating anyone, overestimated Aggregor's capabilities, based on?
>
No, thats exactly what we're not going to do. We're not going to twist the meaning of "omnipotence" just so that it fits your narrative.
And like I and Ever said, making ideas reality, altering universes, and rewritting universal concepts would most definitely fit under that category of what is "omnipotent" in Ben 10.
The meaning of "omnipotence" comes from a dictionary, I'm using the dictionary defininton of the word. It is not vague at all, period. And it does not matter at all what you and Ever think the word means, considering you do not get to the decide the definition of "omnipotence". And you have conviniently ignored the fact that Celestialsapiens have already rewritten universal concepts such as time and the artwork of the series, so even by your arbitrary definition, they are still omnipotent.
>This has absolutely NOTHING to do with whats being talked about here. At all.
Umm yes it does? You and Everlasting are claiming that " All of the statements come before Omniverse when the Chrono Navigator was nothing more than a traveling device and not a multiverse-ending weapon", even though it's also mentioned in Omniverse. Why are you ignoring this? The omnitrix is stated to be the most powerful EVEN in Omniverse. What is even left to discuss?
> Unless your tier 0, "Omnipotent" means absolutely nothing besides describing a god-like power. Period. Stop trying to twist it.
Omnipotent does not mean "tier 0",it means " all powerful/ can do anything". It literally means " can do anything" in latin. Look it up. You are the one twisting the definition of a word, that is already explained in a dictioarny. Use the dictionary definition, dont just arbitrarily define it.
>Considering how this is blatantly stated on the Ben 10 wikia, and still is, this isometht that isn't just made up out of nowhereOsmosians dont need to train or wait in order to use the energy they have absorbed effectiveley and maintain the rate of Absorption
So can you provide a source from the episode confirming this? The Ben 10 wiki does not have any source mentioning if this is from the Ben 10 episodes or from WOG. And you are still ignoring the several times Kevin and Aggregor didnt need to wait or train at all.
>Unless you want to seriously argue that absorbing the power of fodder aliens means you can absorb something thats on higher degrees of infinity...
Feedback can do that just fine, so why cant Aggregor, considering that was the entire plot of the episodes? Because you say so?
>That, and like everything else, we assume a negative until a positive is proven.
So you're just going to ignore the entire plot of the episodes? Ok.
>You do realize we give Feedback a Tier 2 rating, right?
Yes I do realize that, however Feedback is only 2-c with energy absorption, which was my point you missed. His own strength and durability is nowhere near 2-c, was my point. Feedback is equal to Aggregor, so the argument that " fodder aliens cant absorb infinite energy" is blatantly false. Aggregor is stated to be able to absorb infinite power, so we accept the statement, just like we accept universal statement in other fiction. By your logic, most DBS characters arent universal, since those stats rely entirely on statements.
>Simple. Because Feedback has actual FEATS of absorbing that amount of energy without any issue. Aggregor doesn't. Feats >>>>> statements as priority.
So you are unwilling to accept any statements, except when they are made on the Ben 10 wiki with no sources attatched? Goku, Vegeta, Hit etc aren't universal, since they have no feats showing they can destroy a universe?
>It being plot-based doesn't matter. What matters is the context of the narrative.
Your argument solely relies on you ignoring the context of the narrative with no valid explanation given why.
>There IS such a thing as taking a threat more seriously than it actually is.
So Paradox and Azmuth, 2 characters not know for massively overestmating anyone, overestimated Aggregor's capabilities, based on?
>
No, thats exactly what we're not going to do. We're not going to twist the meaning of "omnipotence" just so that it fits your narrative.
And like I and Ever said, making ideas reality, altering universes, and rewritting universal concepts would most definitely fit under that category of what is "omnipotent" in Ben 10.
The meaning of "omnipotence" comes from a dictionary, I'm using the dictionary defininton of the word. It is not vague at all, period. And it does not matter at all what you and Ever think the word means, considering you do not get to the decide the definition of "omnipotence". And you have conviniently ignored the fact that Celestialsapiens have already rewritten universal concepts such as time and the artwork of the series, so even by your arbitrary definition, they are still omnipotent.
>This has absolutely NOTHING to do with whats being talked about here. At all.
Umm yes it does? You and Everlasting are claiming that " All of the statements come before Omniverse when the Chrono Navigator was nothing more than a traveling device and not a multiverse-ending weapon", even though it's also mentioned in Omniverse. Why are you ignoring this? The omnitrix is stated to be the most powerful EVEN in Omniverse. What is even left to discuss?
> Unless your tier 0, "Omnipotent" means absolutely nothing besides describing a god-like power. Period. Stop trying to twist it.
Omnipotent does not mean "tier 0",it means " all powerful/ can do anything". It literally means " can do anything" in latin. Look it up. You are the one twisting the definition of a word, that is already explained in a dictioarny. Use the dictionary definition, dont just arbitrarily define it.
- 541
- 59
Why would they have resistance of absorption when such a thing is never stated or implied at any point? The burden of proof is on you prove they have such resistance, not on us to prove they dont. Ben 10 is not dragon ball, stronger characters dont automatically gain immunity from weaker characters . Me telling you the burden of proof is on you to prove your claim is not me derailing the thread with topics that have nothing to do with why you made it.
- 9,982
- 6,333
I don't understand why isn't Alien x's page removed permanently
- 57
- 5
@Doorinmyhouse Can we please just not use "omnipotence" in this thread unless we are talking about omnipotence in the sense of being all powerful. Please don't use it as hyperbole or as a stand in for god-like power, if you really want to continue doing so though at least specify it's that meaning of omnipotence. Other than that, I do agree with the idea that both Azmuth and Professor Paradox would not overestimate Aggregor. Let's just ignore the question of "could Aggregor USE Celestialsapien power without training" because ultimately that's not the important question. "Can Aggregor ABSORB Celestialsapien power" is what we want to determine. Based on the fact that both the smartest being in 5 galaxies AND a time traveller believe Aggregor would be able to absorb a baby Celestialsapien means it's absurdly unlikely he can't. Azmuth's devoted pretty much his whole life to cataloging alien DNA and studying it, if anyone could know the capabilities of a species other than themselves it would be him.
@ProfessorKukui4Life The thing is, it doesn't matter if Alien X's power is infinitely greater than the other fodder aliens'. It SHOULD by real world logic, but in fiction these things rarely make sense. Take a look at the Diagon, who's power was absorbed by a freaking machine, despite him being an inter-dimensional demon who casually takes out Ultimate Way Big. Yes, Diagon is 4-B and thus nowhere near Alien X, but its still difficult to call him "fodder". My point is that we've seen that it's possible for ridiculously strong characters to have their powers absorbed by far weaker ones.
@ProfessorKukui4Life The thing is, it doesn't matter if Alien X's power is infinitely greater than the other fodder aliens'. It SHOULD by real world logic, but in fiction these things rarely make sense. Take a look at the Diagon, who's power was absorbed by a freaking machine, despite him being an inter-dimensional demon who casually takes out Ultimate Way Big. Yes, Diagon is 4-B and thus nowhere near Alien X, but its still difficult to call him "fodder". My point is that we've seen that it's possible for ridiculously strong characters to have their powers absorbed by far weaker ones.
- 13,587
- 5,754
@Dragonic
Doorin doesn't need to specify which definition is being used a every turn when it has been established multiple times which in this thread alone, let alone the other preceding threads on this topic. Everyone here knows exactly what he means and if someone doesn't, why are they even on the thread.
@Kukui
Stop being pedantic. You know there are different definitions for omnipotent so quit ignoring one to support your argument.
The whole point of the Aggregor/Feedback comparison is that there is previous evidence for 3d beings absorbing 4d power. You can't dismiss it by saying "feats >>> statements" when statements are still valid evidence unless they are contradicted by feats. Aggregor has no such thing, the entire plot/narrative hinging on his ability to do so and the 2 smartest beings introduced in the setting saying he can. Your only thing to say otherwise is an unsourced line from a wikia that isn't even this one (ie the only one that matters here) which is directly disproven by feats in each of the 3 series.
1 tenth of 4d is still 4d.
Doorin doesn't need to specify which definition is being used a every turn when it has been established multiple times which in this thread alone, let alone the other preceding threads on this topic. Everyone here knows exactly what he means and if someone doesn't, why are they even on the thread.
@Kukui
Stop being pedantic. You know there are different definitions for omnipotent so quit ignoring one to support your argument.
The whole point of the Aggregor/Feedback comparison is that there is previous evidence for 3d beings absorbing 4d power. You can't dismiss it by saying "feats >>> statements" when statements are still valid evidence unless they are contradicted by feats. Aggregor has no such thing, the entire plot/narrative hinging on his ability to do so and the 2 smartest beings introduced in the setting saying he can. Your only thing to say otherwise is an unsourced line from a wikia that isn't even this one (ie the only one that matters here) which is directly disproven by feats in each of the 3 series.
1 tenth of 4d is still 4d.
- 10,758
- 6,491
As Anonymous said, Aggregor's statement of absorbing the Celestialsapien was by two of the smartest characters in the series and is backed up by the narrative, since that was the very threat everyone was fighting to prevent
It makes little sense to say he can't absorb tier 2 power just because of his lack of feats when he still has strong evidence saying otherwise
It makes little sense to say he can't absorb tier 2 power just because of his lack of feats when he still has strong evidence saying otherwise
- 16,960
- 4,860
- Thread starter
- #143
Rebuttals
>When Ben is a clear example of not needing to wait any years to use it. The omnitrix can develop a Celestialsapien quicker than they can, no matter how you slice it.
Ben doesn't need to wait any years because the Omnitrix isn't "developing" Alien X. It starts out as already developed because the Omnitrix took the DNA of an already developed Celestialsapien. Alien X doesn't start as a baby alien X and grows into an adult one, it starts out as a fully developed Celestialsapien from the very beginning.
It's not the same thing as this. At all.
>So can you provide a source from the episode confirming this? The Ben 10 wiki does not have any source mentioning if this is from the Ben 10 episodes or from WOG. And you are still ignoring the several times Kevin and Aggregor didnt need to wait or train at all.
It doesn't matter if Aggregor or Kevin didn't need to wait or train, your completely missing the point. Osmosians needing to train to effectively use the energy they absorb depends on the amount of energy they absorb. Kevin or Aggregor absorbing the power of fodder aliens without training is one thing. Absorbing something unfathomly superior to those aliens and doing the same thing is an entirely different case. This is like saying someone who can absorb 5-A energy without issue can absorb 3-B energy without issue.
Granted, you have a point on the sourcing comment and I will ask on where this comes from, but the fact that the Ben 10 Wikia currently lists this weakness (despite constantly updating their pages like we do), that increases the legitimacy of it being real or else it wouldn't have been there in the first place.
>Feedback can do that just fine, so why cant Aggregor, considering that was the entire plot of the episodes? Because you say so?
Then it's a feat for Feedback. Not Aggregor. Stop acting like outliers or inconsistencies cannot happen just because "its the plot of the episode".
Even worse, why are you comparing Feedback to Aggregor? Their absorption haxes....kinda don't scale to each other at all.
>So you're just going to ignore the entire plot of the episodes? Ok.
Plot isn't evidence.
>Yes I do realize that, however Feedback is only 2-c with energy absorption, which was my point you missed.
No, hes Low 2-C through pure energy manipulation and even his durability scales to the feat, which shows that we scale his stats to the big bang feat. Otherwise, it would be an outlier. If you disagree, downgrade Feedback then.
>So you are unwilling to accept any statements
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said statements can't be accepted. What my point was that Feedback and Aggegor are not in the same boat here when the former has actual showings of proving his energy absorption is that potent while the latter doesn't and is only suggested through implicated statements. What one does doesn't effect the other. Especially when Osmosian's energy absorption doesn't scale to Feedbacks.
>Your argument solely relies on you ignoring the context of the narrative with no valid explanation given why.
And exactly what context am I missing here?
>So Paradox and Azmuth, 2 characters not know for massively overestmating anyone, overestimated Aggregor's capabilities, based on?
Based on Aggegor and no Osmosian never actually showing they can absorb a Celestialsapiens power but believing that he could? Believing that because baby celestialsapiens are defenseless, their power can be taken by just anyone?
>The meaning of "omnipotence" comes from a dictionary, I'm using the dictionary defininton of the word. It is not vague at all, period.
Which only matters if you were trying to make someone Tier 0 with it. Which....kinda isnt the case here.
Applying it to anything that isn't tier 0 is whats vague. Unless your tier 0, the term only describes god-tier powers. Thats it.
>The omnitrix is stated to be the most powerful EVEN in Omniverse. What is even left to discuss?
Because the Omnitrix has absolutely nothing to do with Alien X's tier? And Ever literally addressed this when he downgraded Alien X the first time. That, and Ever's point wasn't referring to the Omnitrix. He was talking about the statements made for Celestialsapiens.
Not to mention that it's wrong anyway when the absolute best level of power the Omnitrix has been portrayed to have is, like....Universe level. And through self-destruction.
>Omnipotent does not mean "tier 0",it means " all powerful/ can do anything". It literally means " can do anything" in latin. Look it up.
Which is what we rate Tier 0's here as being able to do.....
Edit: Ignore this part.
>That's not how it works. Power absorption is hax, this isn't Dragon Ball where they could just flex on hax techniques.
And like any hax, we assume a negative until the positive is proven. Or else it becomes a No Limits Fallacy. So yes, this is how this works and we do apply Power Absorption to be like this. It's not about "flexing" on hax abilities, it's the limitation of the hax itself. Making it irrelevant.
Unless evidence is actually given, someone who can absorb up to 5-A energy isn't absorbing something, like, 3-B energy without something that proves 5-A isnt their established limit.
>When Ben is a clear example of not needing to wait any years to use it. The omnitrix can develop a Celestialsapien quicker than they can, no matter how you slice it.
Ben doesn't need to wait any years because the Omnitrix isn't "developing" Alien X. It starts out as already developed because the Omnitrix took the DNA of an already developed Celestialsapien. Alien X doesn't start as a baby alien X and grows into an adult one, it starts out as a fully developed Celestialsapien from the very beginning.
It's not the same thing as this. At all.
>So can you provide a source from the episode confirming this? The Ben 10 wiki does not have any source mentioning if this is from the Ben 10 episodes or from WOG. And you are still ignoring the several times Kevin and Aggregor didnt need to wait or train at all.
It doesn't matter if Aggregor or Kevin didn't need to wait or train, your completely missing the point. Osmosians needing to train to effectively use the energy they absorb depends on the amount of energy they absorb. Kevin or Aggregor absorbing the power of fodder aliens without training is one thing. Absorbing something unfathomly superior to those aliens and doing the same thing is an entirely different case. This is like saying someone who can absorb 5-A energy without issue can absorb 3-B energy without issue.
Granted, you have a point on the sourcing comment and I will ask on where this comes from, but the fact that the Ben 10 Wikia currently lists this weakness (despite constantly updating their pages like we do), that increases the legitimacy of it being real or else it wouldn't have been there in the first place.
>Feedback can do that just fine, so why cant Aggregor, considering that was the entire plot of the episodes? Because you say so?
Then it's a feat for Feedback. Not Aggregor. Stop acting like outliers or inconsistencies cannot happen just because "its the plot of the episode".
Even worse, why are you comparing Feedback to Aggregor? Their absorption haxes....kinda don't scale to each other at all.
>So you're just going to ignore the entire plot of the episodes? Ok.
Plot isn't evidence.
>Yes I do realize that, however Feedback is only 2-c with energy absorption, which was my point you missed.
No, hes Low 2-C through pure energy manipulation and even his durability scales to the feat, which shows that we scale his stats to the big bang feat. Otherwise, it would be an outlier. If you disagree, downgrade Feedback then.
>So you are unwilling to accept any statements
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said statements can't be accepted. What my point was that Feedback and Aggegor are not in the same boat here when the former has actual showings of proving his energy absorption is that potent while the latter doesn't and is only suggested through implicated statements. What one does doesn't effect the other. Especially when Osmosian's energy absorption doesn't scale to Feedbacks.
>Your argument solely relies on you ignoring the context of the narrative with no valid explanation given why.
And exactly what context am I missing here?
>So Paradox and Azmuth, 2 characters not know for massively overestmating anyone, overestimated Aggregor's capabilities, based on?
Based on Aggegor and no Osmosian never actually showing they can absorb a Celestialsapiens power but believing that he could? Believing that because baby celestialsapiens are defenseless, their power can be taken by just anyone?
>The meaning of "omnipotence" comes from a dictionary, I'm using the dictionary defininton of the word. It is not vague at all, period.
Which only matters if you were trying to make someone Tier 0 with it. Which....kinda isnt the case here.
Applying it to anything that isn't tier 0 is whats vague. Unless your tier 0, the term only describes god-tier powers. Thats it.
>The omnitrix is stated to be the most powerful EVEN in Omniverse. What is even left to discuss?
Because the Omnitrix has absolutely nothing to do with Alien X's tier? And Ever literally addressed this when he downgraded Alien X the first time. That, and Ever's point wasn't referring to the Omnitrix. He was talking about the statements made for Celestialsapiens.
Not to mention that it's wrong anyway when the absolute best level of power the Omnitrix has been portrayed to have is, like....Universe level. And through self-destruction.
>Omnipotent does not mean "tier 0",it means " all powerful/ can do anything". It literally means " can do anything" in latin. Look it up.
Edit: Ignore this part.
>That's not how it works. Power absorption is hax, this isn't Dragon Ball where they could just flex on hax techniques.
And like any hax, we assume a negative until the positive is proven. Or else it becomes a No Limits Fallacy. So yes, this is how this works and we do apply Power Absorption to be like this. It's not about "flexing" on hax abilities, it's the limitation of the hax itself. Making it irrelevant.
Unless evidence is actually given, someone who can absorb up to 5-A energy isn't absorbing something, like, 3-B energy without something that proves 5-A isnt their established limit.
- 10,787
- 1,635
No, we haven't for ages.ProfessorKukui4Life said:
- 16,960
- 4,860
- Thread starter
- #145
No, im not going to stop because this is no different than any previous thread where Alien X and the word "Omnipotence" are thrown in together. Unless a character is actually Tier 0 to fit the literal meaning of the word, "Omnipotence" is vague and means nothing more than describing a power as being god-like in relation to everyone else in their universe. Thats it.AnonymousBlank said:
And even then, your missing the actual point of what Everlasting's argument actually was to begin with. Even if Aggregor can absorb infinitely superior powers, the problem here is that because Celestialsapiens are stated to have "the greatest power", those said powers shouldn't be able to be absorbed by fodder to begin with. Unless, it was a matter of abilities instead of attack potency.
- 16,960
- 4,860
- Thread starter
- #146
So we don't accept Omnipotence in general then I presume?The God Of Procrastination said:
- 10,787
- 1,635
No.
- 16,960
- 4,860
- Thread starter
- #148
Kk, my mistake. Though, that would only add on to my point if anything.
- 10,758
- 6,491
""Omnipotence" is vague and means nothing more than describing a power as being god-like in relation to everyone else in their universe. Thats it."
If that's the definition you are using then how is the term meaningless? You are arguing against the word putting you above everything else in the verse, when you are literally defining it as a power that is god like in comparison to everything else in the verse
"because Celestialsapiens are stated to have "the greatest power", those said powers shouldn't be able to be absorbed by fodder to begin with. Unless, it was a matter of abilities instead of attack potency."
Sorry but that makes no sense whatsoever. Having the highest AP in a setting by no means makes it so that power absorption from a less powerful indivual would fail, and the indivual being referred to as fodder means nothing either, the logic is still that power absorption fails depending on someone's standing in the verse based on raw power, which is just..no
If that's the definition you are using then how is the term meaningless? You are arguing against the word putting you above everything else in the verse, when you are literally defining it as a power that is god like in comparison to everything else in the verse
"because Celestialsapiens are stated to have "the greatest power", those said powers shouldn't be able to be absorbed by fodder to begin with. Unless, it was a matter of abilities instead of attack potency."
Sorry but that makes no sense whatsoever. Having the highest AP in a setting by no means makes it so that power absorption from a less powerful indivual would fail, and the indivual being referred to as fodder means nothing either, the logic is still that power absorption fails depending on someone's standing in the verse based on raw power, which is just..no
- 16,960
- 4,860
- Thread starter
- #150
>If that's the definition you are using then how is the term meaningless? You are arguing against the word putting you above everything else in the verse, when you are literally defining it as a power that is god like in comparison to everything else in the verse
Because without more context, the term can very easily refer to hax abilities being god like compared to the norms in the respective universe. Most especially abilities that are conceptual, like, rewritting universal concepts. Or making ideas reality.
>Sorry but that makes no sense whatsoever. Having the highest AP in a setting by no means makes it so that power absorption from a less powerful indivual would fail
It would if said individual cannot handle the extent of the power they are absorbing and end up harming or even destroying themselves. Without actual evidence, we put established limits on energy absorption based on what it has been shown to work up to. Otherwise, again, it becomes a massive No Limits Fallacy.
Unless a 7-C character absorb 4-A level power just fine then all of a sudden, or a 5-B absorbing 3-A level power, I don't see what doesn't make sense here.
Because without more context, the term can very easily refer to hax abilities being god like compared to the norms in the respective universe. Most especially abilities that are conceptual, like, rewritting universal concepts. Or making ideas reality.
>Sorry but that makes no sense whatsoever. Having the highest AP in a setting by no means makes it so that power absorption from a less powerful indivual would fail
It would if said individual cannot handle the extent of the power they are absorbing and end up harming or even destroying themselves. Without actual evidence, we put established limits on energy absorption based on what it has been shown to work up to. Otherwise, again, it becomes a massive No Limits Fallacy.
Unless a 7-C character absorb 4-A level power just fine then all of a sudden, or a 5-B absorbing 3-A level power, I don't see what doesn't make sense here.
- 10,758
- 6,491
No limits fallacy is when we assume a character to be capable of defeating anyone they are matched up against just because their exact limits aren't spelled out in-universe, you put limits on a character when discussing him in a debate for this reason, but, this limit is not something we take as canonical and use as a premise when analyzing the original narrative
If someone's limits aren't known, then the fact of the matter is that we don't know them and cannot derive conclusions about the characters and plot that rely on the limits to be established below a certain level. That's not what the point of no limits fallacy is and just ends up in making up information about a verse
If someone's limits aren't known, then the fact of the matter is that we don't know them and cannot derive conclusions about the characters and plot that rely on the limits to be established below a certain level. That's not what the point of no limits fallacy is and just ends up in making up information about a verse
- 16,960
- 4,860
- Thread starter
- #152
No, if they don't show an exact limit then we go off of what their abilities have been shown to work up to. Just because an NLF is mostly for vs-debating purposes doesn't mean that it cannot be taken as a canonical establishment for the character.
Even if im wrong about that, your point can also go against you. If their limits arent shown, and we cant derive conclusions about their abilities working below a certain level, we also cant conclude that they work above a certain level either. Which is why that im 95% sure we go off of what they are shown to perform up to as it takes the very least amount of assumptions and is plain concrete.
Even if im wrong about that, your point can also go against you. If their limits arent shown, and we cant derive conclusions about their abilities working below a certain level, we also cant conclude that they work above a certain level either. Which is why that im 95% sure we go off of what they are shown to perform up to as it takes the very least amount of assumptions and is plain concrete.
- 10,758
- 6,491
Your premise is "Aggregor's power absorption works below the level needed to absorb a CS"
Mine is "Aggregor has reliable statements about his absorption working and is contextually supported due to the actual plot of the storyline"
Even if we were to make it about NLFs and ignore the blatant evidence supporting that level of absorption the premise would be
"Aggregor's absorption may or not be at a level to absorb a CP"
I wouldn't be asserting his limits are a certain place, I would just be pointing out an argument assuming his limits without evidence is invalid and should not be used
However that doesn't even matter because there's actual evidence for Aggregor having that level of absorption
Mine is "Aggregor has reliable statements about his absorption working and is contextually supported due to the actual plot of the storyline"
Even if we were to make it about NLFs and ignore the blatant evidence supporting that level of absorption the premise would be
"Aggregor's absorption may or not be at a level to absorb a CP"
I wouldn't be asserting his limits are a certain place, I would just be pointing out an argument assuming his limits without evidence is invalid and should not be used
However that doesn't even matter because there's actual evidence for Aggregor having that level of absorption
XSOULOFCINDERX
They/Them- 21,389
- 9,050
OOF
- 541
- 59
> Osmosians needing to train to effectively use the energy they absorb depends on the amount of energy they absorb. So are you just going to repeat this without providing a source or...? The 5 aliens Aggregor absorbed were far superior to him, Kevin absorbed aliens from Ben's watch twice that were far superior to him. Both of them could use the power of the aliens immediately. The Ben 10 wiki is incorrect, plain and simple, I dont care what it says. It also says Alien X is literally omnipotent, as in tier 0, something you obviously disagree with, but you dont see me or anyone else using that as evidence for anything.
>Then it's a feat for Feedback. Not Aggregor. Stop acting like outliers or inconsistencies cannot happen just because "its the plot of the episode".
Even worse, why are you comparing Feedback to Aggregor? Their absorption haxes....kinda don't scale to each other at all.
I'm not comparing them lol, I brought it up because you said it's not possible for fodder aliens to absorb infinite power, as I have already repeatedly mentioned to you. I never said outliers or inconsistencies cant happen, but sure go ahead and prove it's an outlier for Feedback.
>Plot isn't evidence
Neither are baseless assumptions.
> No, hes Low 2-C through pure energy manipulation and even his durability scales to the feat, which shows that we scale his stats to the big bang feat. Otherwise, it would be an outlier. If you disagree, downgrade Feedback then.
How can you say "no", and then repeat exactly what I said? Feedback's durability isn't universal, he has consistently been hurt by much weaker attacks. He can just absorb universal energy. It's the same with the Anihilaargh, the Anihilaargh is universal in DC but its durability is below human level.
> What one does doesn't effect the other. Especially when Osmosian's energy absorption doesn't scale to Feedbacks.
Nice strawman, I never said Feedback scaled to Aggregor. You said yourself we shouldnt accept Aggregor having universal level of absorption because it's only statements, I didnt put words in your mouth. You said it yourself, you are not willing to accept Aggregor having universal absorption because it's only statements, and not a feat.
>And exactly what context am I missing here?
The fact that Azmuth and Paradox, 2 characters who know quite alot about alien powers, especially Azmuth who developed the goddamn Omnitrix based on his knowledge about alien power, belive Aggregor can absorb the power of Celestialsapiens.
> Believing that because baby celestialsapiens are defenseless, their power can be taken by just anyone?
Again with the strawman. Where did I imply anyone could absorb/ utilize their power??? And since you never accept statements, you dont believe DBS characters beside Zeno and Super Shenron are universal either? Since no other character ever showed such a feat.
>Which only matters if you were trying to make someone Tier 0 with it. Which....kinda isnt the case here.
No character in any fiction is litterally omnipotent. There is no fictional character that can literally do anything, including tier 0 characters. No character can interact with the real world as they please. And you are still ignoring the dictionary definition, while arbitrarly defining it yourself I see.
>Because the Omnitrix has absolutely nothing to do with Alien X's tier? And Ever literally addressed this when he downgraded Alien X the first time. That, and Ever's point wasn't referring to the Omnitrix. He was talking about the statements made for Celestialsapiens.
Not to mention that it's wrong anyway when the absolute best level of power the Omnitrix has been portrayed to have is, like....Universe level. And through self-destruction.
The omnitrix is a weapon that transforms the user into aliens, one of said aliens is Alien X, so yes it absolutely does have something to do with its tier. And why would I care what Everlasting said the first time, when I dont even know what it was? Bring it up now, I wasnt around back then. The best level of power the omnitrix has been portrayed to have is trnasform the user into Alien X several times. Obviously Max Tennyson, Azmuth, Paradox, Vilgax etc dont refer the Omnitrix as the most powerful weapon because it has a universal self destruct, especially considering Ben doesnt even have the same Omnitrix as the one that nearly self destructed.
>Unless evidence is actually given, someone who can absorb up to 5-A energy isn't absorbing something, like, 3-B energy without something that proves 5-A isnt their established limit.
Since when was it estblished his limit was 5-A? What feat proves his limit is 5-A? S
>Then it's a feat for Feedback. Not Aggregor. Stop acting like outliers or inconsistencies cannot happen just because "its the plot of the episode".
Even worse, why are you comparing Feedback to Aggregor? Their absorption haxes....kinda don't scale to each other at all.
I'm not comparing them lol, I brought it up because you said it's not possible for fodder aliens to absorb infinite power, as I have already repeatedly mentioned to you. I never said outliers or inconsistencies cant happen, but sure go ahead and prove it's an outlier for Feedback.
>Plot isn't evidence
Neither are baseless assumptions.
> No, hes Low 2-C through pure energy manipulation and even his durability scales to the feat, which shows that we scale his stats to the big bang feat. Otherwise, it would be an outlier. If you disagree, downgrade Feedback then.
How can you say "no", and then repeat exactly what I said? Feedback's durability isn't universal, he has consistently been hurt by much weaker attacks. He can just absorb universal energy. It's the same with the Anihilaargh, the Anihilaargh is universal in DC but its durability is below human level.
> What one does doesn't effect the other. Especially when Osmosian's energy absorption doesn't scale to Feedbacks.
Nice strawman, I never said Feedback scaled to Aggregor. You said yourself we shouldnt accept Aggregor having universal level of absorption because it's only statements, I didnt put words in your mouth. You said it yourself, you are not willing to accept Aggregor having universal absorption because it's only statements, and not a feat.
>And exactly what context am I missing here?
The fact that Azmuth and Paradox, 2 characters who know quite alot about alien powers, especially Azmuth who developed the goddamn Omnitrix based on his knowledge about alien power, belive Aggregor can absorb the power of Celestialsapiens.
> Believing that because baby celestialsapiens are defenseless, their power can be taken by just anyone?
Again with the strawman. Where did I imply anyone could absorb/ utilize their power??? And since you never accept statements, you dont believe DBS characters beside Zeno and Super Shenron are universal either? Since no other character ever showed such a feat.
>Which only matters if you were trying to make someone Tier 0 with it. Which....kinda isnt the case here.
No character in any fiction is litterally omnipotent. There is no fictional character that can literally do anything, including tier 0 characters. No character can interact with the real world as they please. And you are still ignoring the dictionary definition, while arbitrarly defining it yourself I see.
>Because the Omnitrix has absolutely nothing to do with Alien X's tier? And Ever literally addressed this when he downgraded Alien X the first time. That, and Ever's point wasn't referring to the Omnitrix. He was talking about the statements made for Celestialsapiens.
Not to mention that it's wrong anyway when the absolute best level of power the Omnitrix has been portrayed to have is, like....Universe level. And through self-destruction.
The omnitrix is a weapon that transforms the user into aliens, one of said aliens is Alien X, so yes it absolutely does have something to do with its tier. And why would I care what Everlasting said the first time, when I dont even know what it was? Bring it up now, I wasnt around back then. The best level of power the omnitrix has been portrayed to have is trnasform the user into Alien X several times. Obviously Max Tennyson, Azmuth, Paradox, Vilgax etc dont refer the Omnitrix as the most powerful weapon because it has a universal self destruct, especially considering Ben doesnt even have the same Omnitrix as the one that nearly self destructed.
>Unless evidence is actually given, someone who can absorb up to 5-A energy isn't absorbing something, like, 3-B energy without something that proves 5-A isnt their established limit.
Since when was it estblished his limit was 5-A? What feat proves his limit is 5-A? S
- 16,960
- 4,860
- Thread starter
- #156
>Feedback's durability isn't universal, he has consistently been hurt by much weaker attacks. He can just absorb universal energy. It's the same with the Anihilaargh, the Anihilaargh is universal in DC but its durability is below human level.
"Durability: Small Town level (Took hits from Malware), Unknown against energy attacks | At least Small City level, likely Mountain level physically, Varies, At most Universe level+ against energy attacks (Feedback survived an energy blast from Malware in his final form, as well as absorbing and redirecting the energy of the Anihilaarg, A Conductoid's diet primarily consists of absorbing high-energy particles near protostars)"
You were saying?
>The omnitrix is a weapon that transforms the user into aliens, one of said aliens is Alien X, so yes it absolutely does have something to do with its tier.
And absolutely nothing says the Omnitrix is the most powerful because of it having Alien X. It's a vague statement with absolutely no context behind it. This was literally addressed and debunked the first time Alien X was downgraded. By Ever. The Omnitrix is not even a "weapon", just a transformation device using alien DNA. It's not an offensive weapon in any way, shape or form aside from it's self-destruction feature, which is only powerful enough to destroy the universe. At best, thats Low 2-C if you want to interpret it as destroying an entire space-time continuum.
So no, it has absolutely nothing to do with this at all. You can't take one statement about the Omnitrix and pretend like its directly referring to Alien X to try and make some abitrary scaling chain, ignoring the fact that it would be an outlier for the Omnitrix itself as well.
>The best level of power the omnitrix has been portrayed to have is trnasform the user into Alien X several times
....Transformation isnt attack potency or strength in the slightest. Like, what?
I'll concede to the energy absorption point since its not even my own argument to begin with. But I want to reply to this points above as they are, no offense, complete bullshit.
"Durability: Small Town level (Took hits from Malware), Unknown against energy attacks | At least Small City level, likely Mountain level physically, Varies, At most Universe level+ against energy attacks (Feedback survived an energy blast from Malware in his final form, as well as absorbing and redirecting the energy of the Anihilaarg, A Conductoid's diet primarily consists of absorbing high-energy particles near protostars)"
You were saying?
>The omnitrix is a weapon that transforms the user into aliens, one of said aliens is Alien X, so yes it absolutely does have something to do with its tier.
And absolutely nothing says the Omnitrix is the most powerful because of it having Alien X. It's a vague statement with absolutely no context behind it. This was literally addressed and debunked the first time Alien X was downgraded. By Ever. The Omnitrix is not even a "weapon", just a transformation device using alien DNA. It's not an offensive weapon in any way, shape or form aside from it's self-destruction feature, which is only powerful enough to destroy the universe. At best, thats Low 2-C if you want to interpret it as destroying an entire space-time continuum.
So no, it has absolutely nothing to do with this at all. You can't take one statement about the Omnitrix and pretend like its directly referring to Alien X to try and make some abitrary scaling chain, ignoring the fact that it would be an outlier for the Omnitrix itself as well.
>The best level of power the omnitrix has been portrayed to have is trnasform the user into Alien X several times
....Transformation isnt attack potency or strength in the slightest. Like, what?
I'll concede to the energy absorption point since its not even my own argument to begin with. But I want to reply to this points above as they are, no offense, complete bullshit.
- 11
- 1
Going back to DMB 1 point. Does anyone know in what episode Paradox refers the "hundreds of universe?" Because if this is true then how would Chrono Navigator be 2-B?
In theory the universes and time line will continue to expand but if at that point of scene it was already stated to be in the hundreds then the Chrono Navigator highest potential would be 2-C which would actually make sense for Alien X.
In theory the universes and time line will continue to expand but if at that point of scene it was already stated to be in the hundreds then the Chrono Navigator highest potential would be 2-C which would actually make sense for Alien X.
- 16,960
- 4,860
- Thread starter
- #158
Yes, DMB1's point should be discussed more. Im going to look for what episode that he stated that in.
However, question. Aren't universes with seperate space-times supposed to have no space in-between them? As in not being able to physically travel from one universe to the next?
However, question. Aren't universes with seperate space-times supposed to have no space in-between them? As in not being able to physically travel from one universe to the next?
- 11
- 1
Found the episode! (Not sure if I am allowed to post streaming website of the particular episode.) But it's under Ben 10 Ultimate Alien, episode title is Ben 10,000 Returns.
The actual quote from Paradox,
"As Gwen guessed, cross-time is made up of parallel versions of the history we know. There are hundreds of them. A world where Gwen found the Omnitrix. A world where Albedo turned to Alien X and was trapped motionless for nearly a year. A world where you didn't have to destroy the Omnitrix to defeat Vilgax. Et cetera. Ad infinitum. These worlds are all every bit as real as our own, but they cannot must not be allowed to leak into ours. Which brings us to our problem."
The actual quote from Paradox,
"As Gwen guessed, cross-time is made up of parallel versions of the history we know. There are hundreds of them. A world where Gwen found the Omnitrix. A world where Albedo turned to Alien X and was trapped motionless for nearly a year. A world where you didn't have to destroy the Omnitrix to defeat Vilgax. Et cetera. Ad infinitum. These worlds are all every bit as real as our own, but they cannot must not be allowed to leak into ours. Which brings us to our problem."
- 16,960
- 4,860
- Thread starter
- #160
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
- Status
Similar threads
