About 2-B Alien X

[Andytrenom]

What is this in reference to?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Is that for me or Lagging?

 

[Andytrenom]

You

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

It's in reference to the Multiverse's structure. Im re-watching the episode where Ben's team go to the Forge of Creation and if what I asked about is true, the Ben 10 Multiverse's universes may not even have seperate space-times continuums.

But thats, again, if what I asked is the case.

 

[Firestorm808]

@LaggingAround

The nature of branching timelines is that the current parallel timestreams continues to grow.

Prior to the Ben 10 pilot, there is one timeline.

Whether Ben gets the omnitrix or not splits it into 2 timelines. Over the course of 6 years, there are now hundreds of parallel timelines. By the time Ben is 46, there are even more.

If you look at all of time and space as a whole, not just a specific point in time, you see one line branch off into many endlessly. It's still 2-B.

 

[Andytrenom]

They likely were able to physically travel because Paradox made it so. Also a place explicitly without time was portrayed as a white space things could move in, there being a black space people could move across between universes likely doesn't mean much.

This wouldn't really matter anyway, since the statement we are focusing on alludes to the existence of alternate versions of time, which doesn't leave much room for doubt when it comes the universes being separate time-spaces

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I don't neccessarily disagree, but what implies Paradox did that? All he did was snap his fingers and bring himself, Ben, Kevin and Gwen inside of Kevins ship, who still needed to actively pilot it across universes and into the Forge of Creation.

Here's the scene btw.


Untitled-0

 

[LaggingAround]

@Firestorm808 I would 100% agree with you as this is the general idea of timelines.

But in Ben 10 series, we have Paradox who set a vaguely fixed number of timelines/branches. Let's not forget he know the future of Ben Prime and other Bens and those wearing the Omnitrix (which are the branches.) He is not just witnessing it for the first time every time he goes to a different timeline, he knows what is about to happen.

Edited/Added*

And it's not such a given. Let's not forget the timeline itself doesn't split until Ben gets the Omnitrix. But the general idea of timelines would say that is incorrect, it would've happened way before Ben as people have opportunities to make different choices during certain events.

 

[Andytrenom]

I don't neccessarily disagree, but what implies Paradox did that? All he did was snap his fingers and bring himself, Ben, Kevin and Gwen inside of Kevins ship, who still needed to actively pilot it across universes and into the Forge of Creation.

Here's the scene btw.

He also made it so they would be able to breathe in that space iirc

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

That was for inside of the Nebula, not in the space outside of the universes (or else they wouldnt have needed Kevins ship).

Paradox also goes on to say that the other universes are "close by" to Bens.

 

[Andytrenom]

Either way, the statement used for 2-B/2-C is clearly about alternate timelines so that Forge stuff doesn't affect much

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

>You were saying? I was saying Feedback has the same durabilty as Aggregor, and that he has consistently been hurt by attacks much weaker than universal, as your quote from his profile says. He can absorb and tank universal levels of "pure energy blast" for a lack of a better word. That does not make his actual durability universal, unless you are suggesting every character that has harmed him are universal??? No, he is only universal through "pure energy" absorption/tanking.

>And absolutely nothing says the Omnitrix is the most powerful because of it having Alien X. It's a vague statement with absolutely no context behind it. This was literally addressed and debunked the first time Alien X was downgraded. By Ever. The Omnitrix is not even a "weapon", just a transformation device using alien DNA. It's not an offensive weapon in any way, shape or form aside from it's self-destruction feature, which is only powerful enough to destroy the universe.

So no, it has absolutely nothing to do with this at all. You can't take one statement about the Omnitrix and pretend like its directly referring to Alien X to try and make some abitrary scaling chain, ignoring the fact that it would be an outlier for the Omnitrix itself as well.

The chararcters doesnt need to point out everything that is painfully obvious. The omnitrex does not have any useful offensive ability for a non-suicidal or non-universal user, other than transforming the user into an alien. Not sure why you keep mentioning EvErlasting, as if his name by itself matters to me? Where is the argument? And yeah sure, transforming into powerful aliens does not make the Omnitrex a weapon, or offensive in any way shape or form. What absolute dogshit. It's even listed as a weapon on this wiki, so clearly you and Everlasting's argument are wrong, otherwise it wouldn't still be listed as such. And lol, how would the Omnitrex being the most powerful weapon because of Alien X make it an outlier for the Omnitrex??


>Transformation isnt attack potency or strength in the slightest. Like, what?

I'll concede to the energy absorption point since its not even my own argument to begin with. But I want to reply to this points above as they are, no offense, complete bullshit.


Oh yeah of course, transforming into aliens way more powerful than yourself doesnt have anything to do with attack potency or strength. What is this even supposed to mean? Do you even know what a "weapon" is? Do I have to show you the dictionary definiton of it as well? This is basic English.

According to lexico a weapon is "A thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage. According to merriam-webster a weapon is : " something (such as a club, knife, or gun) used to injure, defeat, or destroy". Tell me again how the Omnitrix isnt an object used to inflict harm/ damage or used to injure, defeat or destroy?

Your arguments are becoming more and more pedantic. Explain how the hell the Omnitrix, outside of self destructing, does not fit those definition

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Door, I'm going to have go ask you to tone it down there.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Either way, the statement used for 2-B/2-C is clearly about alternate timelines so that Forge stuff doesn't affect much

The thing is, the forge stuff would suggest that the alternate timelines are not seperate space-time continuums if it checks out like I asked before.

Which would make the Multiverse a Quilted one.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Your arguments are becoming more and more pedantic.

I really don't care. If you want to continue this discussion, take it to my wall please so that this thread isn't cluttered by points that I dropped mid-way.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I'm sorry but where did the quilted multiverse stuff come from?

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

Door, I'm going to have go ask you to tone it down there.

With all due and respect, I was using the exact same tone as ProfessorKukui4life was using, so I was under the impression that I wasnt doing anything wrong, as you can see at the bottom of his reply " 'll concede to the energy absorption point since its not even my own argument to begin with. But I want to reply to this points above as they are, no offense, complete bullshit."

But yeah, I will tone It down, I'm not used to debate here. I apologize.

Edit:

And sure, we can continue on your wall Professor, the thread is rather long as it is rigt now.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I'm sorry but where did the quilted multiverse stuff come from?

They come from this:

However, question. Aren't universes with seperate space-times supposed to have no space in-between them? As in not being able to physically travel from one universe to the next?

It's in reference to the Multiverse's structure. Im re-watching the episode where Ben's team go to the Forge of Creation and if what I asked about is true, the Ben 10 Multiverse's universes may not even have seperate space-times continuums. But thats, again, if what I asked is the case.

I don't neccessarily disagree, but what implies Paradox did that? All he did was snap his fingers and bring himself, Ben, Kevin and Gwen inside of Kevins ship, who still needed to actively pilot it across universes and into the Forge of Creation.
Here's the scene btw.


Untitled-0

The thing is, the forge stuff would suggest that the alternate timelines are not seperate space-time continuums if it checks out like I asked before. Which would make the Multiverse a Quilted one.

 

[Firestorm808]

I'm pretty sure that the show has consistantly talked about timelines being separate continums. I don't think they ever suggested whatever a quilted multiverse is.

• Paradox:
  • As Gwen guessed, cross-time is made up of parallel versions of the history we know. There are hundreds of them. A world where Gwen found the Omnitrix. A world where Albedo turned to Alien X and was trapped motionless for nearly a year. A world where you didn't have to destroy the Omnitrix to defeat Vilgax. Et cetera. Ad infinitum. These worlds are all every bit as real as our own, but they cannot must not be allowed to leak into ours. Which brings us to our problem.
  • Oh, my apologies. I can see I have you at a disadvantage. Or I will have had you at a disadvantage. Time travel makes verb tenses so confusing. I am professor Paradox, for ironic reasons we needn't go into. Ben, a word. I'm not sure how much time we have, so listen carefully. Eon wants nothing less than absolute power over everything all timelines, all alternate realities everything.
  • Fair enough. But before I can answer any questions, you're going to need to brush up on quantum mechanics and string theory. There are many dimension, many Universes, many Earths, and thus many Ben Tennysons across those dimensions, dimensions which are not always in sync in time.
  • Think of time and space as this tree. Down here is when you were 10 years old. Right here is now. Up here is when you'll be 30 years old. The trunk is the main timeline. These branches represent alternate timelines, where reality literally branches off and becomes a different timeline, each containing its own Ben Tennyson.
• Eon:
  • Every time-line, every alternate reality, I can see them all and they're all mine!
• Rook:
  • Ben, in the stories I have heard since childhood, the Contemelia go from universe to universe destroying them, not creating them. I suspect that if a universe already exists in this dimension, the Anihilaarg will destroy it.

 

[Andytrenom]

https://www.thoughtco.com/types-of-parallel-universes-2698854

"Quilted Multiverse (Level 1): Space is infinite, therefore somewhere there are regions of space that will exactly mimic our own region of space. There is another world "out there" somewhere in which everything is unfolding exactly as it unfolds on Earth."

This is the definition of quilted universe I found, it seems to be about the structure of our universe repeating itself and not having anything to do with alternate timelines, which by definition would be separate time spaces

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Regardless of what its called, my point is it would be a Multiverse where the universes are not actually separate but share the same space-times as each other. Making it just one very large Universe as a result.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

@Andy, does that imply that all the matter in quilted multiverses have to be High 3-A?

 

[Firestorm808]

A quilted multiverse would just be 1 timeline, contradicting the tree model portrayed in the show. There would be no diverging timelines at all.

 

[Andytrenom]

Regardless of what its called, my point is it would be a Multiverse where the universes are not actually separate but share the same space-times as each other. Making it just one very large Universe as a result.

The feat is about alternate timelines as is the statement used for the cosmology, there is no question of them being the same space time whatsoever

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

A quilted multiverse would just be 1 timeline, contradicting the tree model portrayed in the show. There would be no diverging timelines at all.

Not really. The timelines would just be connected to the "tree" like tree branches would be.

Not that im pushing for it, but it does suggest that the timelines are not seperated from each other since the universes can be reached by and are separated by physical distances. Which isn't supposed to happen for seperate space-times if memory serves me correctly.

 

[DMB_1]

I'm fairly neutral here. I'll wait until things clear out more.

 

[Greenshifter]

Yes, DMB1's point should be discussed more. Im going to look for what episode that he stated that in.

However, question. Aren't universes with seperate space-times supposed to have no space in-between them? As in not being able to physically travel from one universe to the next?

Firestorm and I already addressed this in this thread, we came to the conclusion that Ben 10 verse is an unquantifiable above baseline 2B verse because of exponentially expanding timelines (but not every second like Dragon Ball but rather every year or so), starting (or getting a boost cause I still need to rewatch the final episode on Ben 10 Omniverse where you can see the time stream) when Ben got the Omnitrix (it is unknown why this event caused the timelines to branch out but it does seem like this is the catalyst), hence why 6 years after Ben got the Omnitrix, there are only hundreds of universes.

 

[Greenshifter]

I don't neccessarily disagree, but what implies Paradox did that? All he did was snap his fingers and bring himself, Ben, Kevin and Gwen inside of Kevins ship, who still needed to actively pilot it across universes and into the Forge of Creation.

Here's the scene btw.

The Forge of Creation is a different dimension like Ledgerdomain, this has no bearing on the 2B-structure of the Ben 10 multiverse, bring this up again when I try to upgrade the Chrono Navigator to 2A.

 

[Greenshifter]

Regardless of what its called, my point is it would be a Multiverse where the universes are not actually separate but share the same space-times as each other. Making it just one very large Universe as a result.

This is assuming the Forge of Creation is within the same timeline and only that timeline of Ben prime, which makes no sense cause there is no real reason for it to be that way + Celestialsapiens can alter the art-style of all timelines, wouldn't make much sense to do that from within Ben prime's timeline.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6s34lj 11:17 This should clear things up (you can see the timestream and alternate timelines)

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

It's true that team Ben travelled by ship to another universe, however the 2nd universe is never mentioned or implied to be a timeline. There is no feat or statement implying it's possible to physically travel to another timeline.

Think of it like Dragon Ball Super, it's possible to physiclly travel to another universe, but it's not possible to travel to another timeline.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Kukui if you can actually prove that the Forge of Creation and Ben prime's universe are within the same space-time continuum then this would imply that Paradox's statement about Celestialsapiens only talks about their universe + maybe Null Void and Ledgerdomain which would be troublesome since the chrono navigator might not be referenced when talking about the greatest power in the universe instead of multiverse since Paradox exists outside of time.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

@Greenshifter, it's not possible to simply fly to the Forge Of Creation. It's possible to fly to another universe, yes, the Forge of Creation is between the main universe and the 2nd one,. The Forge of Creation is not a universe.

If it was possible to fly to Forge of Creation, any alien with longevity and a massively FTL spaceship/ teleportation could go there, which quite a lot of them have both of. Paradox specifically says that the Forge of Creation is " out of sync with all time, and without the Map Of Infinity is totally inacceible, unless of course you are me". The Forge of Creation exists outside of any other space-time continuum, and cannot be reached by any means unless you are Paradox or have the MOI. Which would not make any sense if it was possible to travel there.

 

[Greenshifter]

Yeah it does seem that way, just was kinda scared we had some sort of ROSAT (Room of Spirit and Time in Dragon Ball) situation where it's the same space-continuum even tho they're not physically linked and all, but yeah let's wait and see what Kukui thinks about it.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Doorinmyhouse

When was it shown to be possible to fly to another universe? Even going to Dimension 23 was refereed to as dimensional travel.

 

[LaggingAround]

Firestorm and I already addressed this in this thread, we came to the conclusion that Ben 10 verse is an unquantifiable above baseline 2B verse because of exponentially expanding timelines (but not every second like Dragon Ball but rather every year or so), starting (or getting a boost cause I still need to rewatch the final episode on Ben 10 Omniverse where you can see the time stream) when Ben got the Omnitrix (it is unknown why this event caused the timelines to branch out but it does seem like this is the catalyst), hence why 6 years after Ben got the Omnitrix, there are only hundreds of universes.

But it's not unquantifiable above baseline 2B verse. Unlike the other series, we have a powerful time traveler who knows everything about the timelines and said there were only hundreds of timelines. Don't forget he knows what literally happens in this entire franchise. Whenever someone tries to change time he warns them of what would happen such as he did with Gwen when she tried to go back in time to help Kevin.

If Paradox did not say "hundreds of them." Then I would agree with you because that is exactly how timeline works.

But now the burden of proof is on you and everyone who supports the 2-B case to show us a statement or proof of there being more timelines than what has been stated on the show.

 

[Firestorm808]

@LaggingAround

Omniverse Paradox diectly states that the timelines continuously diverge from the prime timeline throughout all of space-time.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

@Doorinmyhouse
When was it shown to be possible to fly to another universe? Even going to Dimension 23 was refereed to as dimensional travel.

At 6:00, In Ben 10 Ultimate Alien, episode "Forge of Creation" we are shown one of the other universes in the main timeline. The Forge of Creation is between those 2 universes, but it's not possible to reach the place because it's unsynced with all of time.

Dimension 23 is another timeline, not another universe. The main timeline, and every other timeline have at least 2 paralel universes inside them. We never see anything within the 2nd paralel universe throughout the entire series, nor is it ever brought up again aside from 1 time.


LaggingAround wrote:

But now the burden of proof is on you and everyone who supports the 2-B case to show us a statement or proof of there being more timelines than what has been stated on the show.


Paradox explains in Ben 10 omniverse episode "And Then There Were None" the cosmos at 9:00. First ProfessorParadox visualses the multiverses.

Each dot represents Earth, there is 1 Earth for each timeline/multiverse, and clearly, there are more than merely hundreds of dots. So yeah, infinite timelines seem more likely than hundreds, which also explains the " ad infinitum", regarding how many timelines there are.

Secondly, Paradox links the quantum mechanics theory and string theory to the Ben 10 cosmos. He uses those theories to explain to Ben what the cosmos is.

As show in dozens of articles online, there are infinite multiverses according to both theories. Instead of reading the entirety of all articles I linked, highlight the page by clicking CRTL+F and input "Infinite" or something similar, to read just that part.

In an article, written by Frank Jennings Tipler( a Professor of Mathematical Physics at Tulane University) explaining what physicist Hugh Everett( the physicist, who devised the multiverse theory of quantum physics) has said about the multiverse, it says the following: "In 1957, a Princeton physics graduate student named Hugh Everett showed that the consistency of quantum mechanics required the existence of an infinity of universes parallel to our universe. That is, there has to be a person identical to you reading this identical article right now in a universe identical to ours. Further, there have to be an infinite number of universes, and thus an infinite number of people identical to you in them."

 

[Greenshifter]

@Laggingaround you forgot the word "currently", Chronosapien Time Bomb takes out these hundreds of timelines and lets causality do the rest (probably) and should thus be rated as 2C (or some weird hax sort of thing like DragonicDoom mentioned), but the chrono navigator takes out all of time at once, including the future timelines.

 

[LaggingAround]

@Firestorm808 Can you tell me where he said this quote? Or the actual quote itself?

If he did say "Continously diverge" then that offsets what he said earlier on Ultimate Alien and there would actually be a 2-B.

Because right now the only quote that is similar to what you are saying is from the episode 'And Then There Was Ben.'

"We are now near the beginning of the Ben Prime timeline -- the trunk of the Ben Tennyson tree from which all the other realities diverge. You must reboot this timestream."

Paradox did not say "Continously" here which means the original statement still holds up.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

The timebomb is never mentioned to let casuality probably erase every timeline, we see that the timebomb does that by itself