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A Tale of Crossing Over Canons

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Kepekley23 said:
Toriko characters are already 3-C. Not that big of a jump.
Click to expand...
I skipped a beat right there but then remembered the gourmet gods. Lol.
 
So, basically, if the crossover is canon, feats done there can be accepted, but scaling to character from the other verse is generally avoided. Got it right?
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Personally, I think we could probably name different types of crossovers; Canon, Non-Canon, One-Sided, ect. In which there are definitions, rules, and listed examples for each.
Click to expand...
That sounds somewhat reasonable but then again, people may not get it right and all that.
 
Welcome back PaChi. If you ever wish to join the staff again, you can send me a message.
 
I could elaborate more, but basically this.

  • Canon Crossovers are crossovers canon to both timelines, usually taking place in the same universe or made by the same creators. Examples could be Mario Vs Donkey Kong or Dead or Alive/Ninja Gaiden. It is canon to both franchises and feats/scaling may be used if they're consistent. We still differentiate god tiers from low tiers among other things and there may be outliers and PIS, which are rules that still apply to linear canon verses. Additionally, the feats seen or taken from the crossover may be consistent to one verse and not the other. There could be impressive feats seen as consistent with the impressive feats of one franchise, but lacks consistency with the otherwise featless franchise. This should also be taken contexts base on the nature of the other or portrayal of said characters compared to the other verse. For example, while Final Fight has shown very little feats, but characters such as Mike Haggar, Cody, and Hugo are consistently comparable to various Street Fighter characters and could scale to Street Fighter feats.
  • Non Canon Crossovers are crossovers not canon to either franchise. Examples may include Marvel Vs Capcom, or Mortal Kombat Vs DC Universe. Given the multiple inconsistencies and lack of canonicity to their original source materials, using these crossovers to scale to canon or canon feats to scale to non-canon original characters is forbidden. Exceptions are that original characters may scale to their own feats or feats seen in the crossover. For example, Dark Kahn has a legit 2-C feat, but it does not scale to anyone but him.
  • One-sided Crossovers are crossovers that are canon to one Verse but not the other. While some characters may be parodies of their original counterparts, they may have a seperate profile scaling from the other verse based on their importance to the story. Example could be Shin Megami Tensei Dante who is based on his Devil May Cry counter part with the same name and appearance, but a slightly altered story to fit in more with the Shin Megami Tensei Verse. But said character may not be used to scale to the Devil May Cry cast.
Possible better wordings and format may be used, but this looks like a general example.
 
I think that we need to expand the text for the canon crossovers section a bit, as a precaution for problems later on.

It should be underlined that we should only use scaling that does not contradict the statistics of the franchises, along with that we need to use common sense for case-by-case analysis in addition to this.
 
I agree with that part, which is why I mentioned at the bottom that I could use better word usage and more elaborations. Canon crossovers are definitely the ones that need the most elaborations with the rules. I did give an example with Final Fight Vs Street Fighter and how the Final Fight characters do legitimately scale to Street Fighter. Wario and Donkey Kong also have separate keys; one for their own exclusive games, and the other/composite key due to being canonically Mario's physical superior despite their own feats lacking in tier.
 
I liked DontTalkDT's suggestion for the text, I think it's more comprehensive yet also more concise than DDM's.
 
I know I'm late to the discussion, but could this also apply to Villainous (aka Black Hat's series)? Since until it gets greenlit for a full show, it's whole shtick is making orientation videos on villains from different Cartoon Network shows.
 
@Gargoyle One

I suggested Medeus as a discussion moderator a while back, but Azathoth is taking a long time handling the latest staff recruitment drive.
 
Anyway, with the current suggestions from DontTalk and Medeus we will probably have to create a new crossovers regulation page, that we can link to in one of our rules list pages, as the text will be too extensive otherwise.

I will take a look to see if I can merge the two versions, or clean them up a bit, but no promises.
 
Hence Ant saying to create a new page, linked to from one of the rules list pages?

Anyway, DontTalkDT's suggestion seems to have more text describing the guidelines themselves with fewer examples, while Medeus' seems to have more examples. Perhaps they should then be combined by adding Medeus' examples in in a way that flows well?
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
We have no Crossover Regulations Ant, at all. No page mentions it. It was always a unspoken thing.
Click to expand...
he hasen't said we do, he litiraly said that he wanted a new one to be made and linked, the merging was about the propositions give for how it could be
 
Here is my first draft for a new crossovers regulation page text.

Constructive input would be appreciated.

Crossovers
A crossover is the placement of two or more characters originating from different continuities/franchises/verses into a single story.

Non-canon crossovers do not officially take place within any of the involved continuities. Examples may include Marvel Vs Capcom, Mortal Kombat Vs DC Universe, or the Dragon Ball/One Piece/Toriko special episode. Given the multiple inconsistencies and lack of canonicity to their original source materials, using these crossovers to scale to canon or canon feats to scale to non-canon original characters is forbidden. Exceptions are that original characters may scale to their own feats or feats seen in the crossover. For example, Dark Kahn has a legitimate 2-C feat, but it does not scale to anyone but him.

Onesided crossovers officially take place within one continuity, but not the other. Given that some characters may be parodies of their original counterparts, they could potentially get a seperate profile scaling from the other verse based on their importance to the story.

One example is the version of Dante in Shin Megami Tensei, who is based on his Devil May Cry counterpart, with the same name and appearance, but a slightly altered story to fit in more with the Shin Megami Tensei verse. However, the character in question may not be used to scale to the Devil May Cry cast.

Profiles for crossovers not canon to the main story of one or more of the franchises involved may only be created according to the regulations defined in the Alternative Canon and Composite Profiles page.

Canon crossovers officially take place within both continuities, and as such recurrently happen within a shared universe or feature characters made by the same creators. Examples include Mario Vs Donkey Kong or Dead or Alive/Ninja Gaiden. It is canon to both franchises and feats/scaling may be used if they are consistent.

We still have to differentiate between characters of different comparative power levels within the verses, and there may be outliers and Plot-Induced Stupidity, which are rules that still apply to linear canon verses.

Additionally, the feats seen or taken from the crossover may be consistent to one verse and not the other. There could be impressive feats seen as consistent with the established scale of one franchise, but that lack consistency with the otherwise featless franchise. We should only use scaling that does not contradict the statistics of the franchises, and need to use common sense for case-by-case analysis in addition to this.

This includes considering the contexts based on the nature or portrayal of the characters. For example, while Final Fight has shown very limited feats, characters such as Mike Haggar, Cody, and Hugo are consistently comparable to various Street Fighter characters and could scale to their feats.

Other issues to take into account:

Take note that crossovers will often rescale the power levels of the different characters for the sake of writing a more entertaining story. This can happen in both in-canon crossovers such as Dissidia Final Fantasy, in which tier 6 and tier 2 characters fought on equal grounds, and in non-canon versions, such as between Luffy, Goku and Toriko. As such the character appearing in the crossover should only be considered to be as powerful as the original if that isn't beyond the degree of power reasonable for the events in the story or other participants in the crossover.

Most characters within the public domai should only be considered as powerful as the originals if the crossover explicitly references their feats and nature. For example many vampire stories reference Dracula as the original vampire, without the vampires in the franchise following the same rules as those of Bram Stoker. Another common example would be the Cthulhu Mythos, for which characters appear in many franchises, sometimes even explicitly with similar background, without displaying remotely the same degree of power as the authentic versions. The same applies to mythological beings.

If a character in a crossover does not share the same history as the original, for example due to being an alternative universe version, it should not automatically be considered to possess the same degree of power.

The crossover should be reasonably extensive, meaning that just brief cameos or references to another franchise should not be used for scaling purposes.
 
Dunno if this has been brought up yet, but there's this in the Editing Rules

Do not use crossovers between different franchises for scaling character statistics. Not only are they almost never a part of canon continuity, in the off chance that they are canon, the crossover will almost always have the respective power levels of franchises adjusted in relation to each other

So that should be edited, or outright removed if the new page makes it irrelevant

The draft seems good. Perhaps an image of a well known crossover as well (Marvel X DC, Super Robot Wars, etc)
 
We would have to reword the regulation to refer to the new "Crossovers" instruction page.

Thank you for the input. An image of Marvel x Capcom, or something similar would be a good idea, yes. High quality suggestions are appreciated.
 
Thank you. We seem to have come to an agreement then.

I think that the Cano page would likely turn too bloated and confusing if we cram my suggested text section into it as well, so I personally lean towards creating a new "Crossovers" page instead.
 
Antvasima said:
I think that the Cano page would likely turn too bloated and confusing if we cram my suggested text section into it as well, so I personally lean towards creating a new "Crossovers" page instead.
Click to expand...
Would this be an acceptable solution?
 
Maybe it should be linked at 'Canon' page with something among the lines.

' Of course there are some feats that have happened in crossovers, and as such, should be seen at 'Crossover' page in case of doubt or matter of understanding.'
 
Antvasima said:
Thank you for the input. An image of Marvel x Capcom, or something similar would be a good idea, yes. High quality suggestions are appreciated.
Click to expand...
I would probably use one of the original Marvel vs Capcom artwork from the 90s.
 
Antvasima said:
Here is my first draft for a new crossovers regulation page text.
Constructive input would be appreciated.

Crossovers
A crossover is the placement of two or more characters originating from different continuities/franchises/verses into a single story.

Non-canon crossovers do not officially take place within any of the involved continuities. Examples may include Marvel Vs Capcom, Mortal Kombat Vs DC Universe, or the Dragon Ball/One Piece/Toriko special episode. Given the multiple inconsistencies and lack of canonicity to their original source materials, using these crossovers to scale to canon or canon feats to scale to non-canon original characters is forbidden. Exceptions are that original characters may scale to their own feats or feats seen in the crossover. For example, Dark Kahn has a legitimate 2-C feat, but it does not scale to anyone but him.

Onesided crossovers officially take place within one continuity, but not the other. Given that some characters may be parodies of their original counterparts, they could potentially get a seperate profile scaling from the other verse based on their importance to the story.

One example is the version of Dante in Shin Megami Tensei, who is based on his Devil May Cry counterpart, with the same name and appearance, but a slightly altered story to fit in more with the Shin Megami Tensei verse. However, the character in question may not be used to scale to the Devil May Cry cast.

Profiles for crossovers not canon to the main story of one or more of the franchises involved may only be created according to the regulations defined in the Alternative Canon and Composite Profiles page.

Canon crossovers officially take place within both continuities, and as such recurrently happen within a shared universe or feature characters made by the same creators. Examples include Mario Vs Donkey Kong or Dead or Alive/Ninja Gaiden. It is canon to both franchises and feats/scaling may be used if they are consistent.

We still have to differentiate between characters of different comparative power levels within the verses, and there may be outliers and Plot-Induced Stupidity, which are rules that still apply to linear canon verses.

Additionally, the feats seen or taken from the crossover may be consistent to one verse and not the other. There could be impressive feats seen as consistent with the established scale of one franchise, but that lack consistency with the otherwise featless franchise. We should only use scaling that does not contradict the statistics of the franchises, and need to use common sense for case-by-case analysis in addition to this.

This includes considering the contexts based on the nature or portrayal of the characters. For example, while Final Fight has shown very limited feats, characters such as Mike Haggar, Cody, and Hugo are consistently comparable to various Street Fighter characters and could scale to their feats.

Other issues to take into account:

Take note that crossovers will often rescale the power levels of the different characters for the sake of writing a more entertaining story. This can happen in both in-canon crossovers such as Dissidia Final Fantasy, in which tier 6 and tier 2 characters fought on equal grounds, and in non-canon versions, such as between Luffy, Goku and Toriko. As such the character appearing in the crossover should only be considered to be as powerful as the original if that isn't beyond the degree of power reasonable for the events in the story or other participants in the crossover.

Most characters within the public domai should only be considered as powerful as the originals if the crossover explicitly references their feats and nature. For example many vampire stories reference Dracula as the original vampire, without the vampires in the franchise following the same rules as those of Bram Stoker. Another common example would be the Cthulhu Mythos, for which characters appear in many franchises, sometimes even explicitly with similar background, without displaying remotely the same degree of power as the authentic versions. The same applies to mythological beings.

If a character in a crossover does not share the same history as the original, for example due to being an alternative universe version, it should not automatically be considered to possess the same degree of power.

The crossover should be reasonably extensive, meaning that just brief cameos or references to another franchise should not be used for scaling purposes.
Click to expand...
I agree
 
Well, I would have preferred more input, but it seems like my suggestion has been accepted, so I will proceed with creating the crossovers page then.
 
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