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A Tale of Crossing Over Canons

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On case-by-case: So are you also in favor of deciding if lightning is lightning speed in fiction on case by case basis? That wouldn't help anyone, as nobody would know what qualifies and what not and instead it would essentially just become a public voting on whether people think it's realistic.

This is the same. If you don't describe what is acceptable and what not nobody will know how to judge these cases, meaning one of 2 things will happen

1. Those things will be completely subjectively and inconsistently be decided upon

2. People will learn certain arguments that were used in prior decisions regarding the things and use these to consistently decide things. These arguments would be nothing but a criteria on what is accepted and what not, and could be actually written down.

Countries show how one can make laws which prevent the judges from deciding just by what they think is correct and at the same time leave the leeway for a judge to take all kinds of situations into considerations.


On to the main debate:

The basic assumption is that if a Verse is included in another's cosmology, it will automatically scale, because it is basic logic.
Common sense fallacy. You might claim that is "basic logic", but that does not make it an legitimate argument. As you already stated at your beginning post there are plently of crossovers that don't even remotely follow the idea of that. That means you are trying to invoke a rule per default that obviously doesn't hold. It isn't even like there is a reason it should hold, given that authors who are writing crossovers want to show how interactions with the other franchises would be. Whether power relations make sense is of secondary concern for anyone that isn't a fictional battle debater like us. So a rule that the character will act consistent to its canon doesn't exist. If someone wants to do a crossover it will be done irregardless of power compatibility. That there are some works that one can show to care about consistency and that there are some works for which this doesn't result in nonsense, doesn't suffice to rely on it beyond being proven otherwise.


And nobody is claiming the cameos or crossovers are to be written of as "meaningless" and be ignored if they are canon. One should just restrict oneself to what is actually shown in the crossover, instead of grabbing from a pool of feats from the original work that the crossover will, whenever necessary, ignore for the sake of having a better story.

If we are really just debating a rule text now, I will think about it.
 
@DontTalk

Absolute false equivalency. The mechanisms of electricity and lightning and the canonicity of Crossovers are not remotely comparable things. And I'm pretty sure you know it. In the case of things which cannot have cut and dry scientific answers, Case-by-case is the best option.

The rest of this argument is built entirely on assumptions that everyone will do the worst thing possible, and that staff will be unable to handle the occassional wanking thread that we'd get anyway.

This is not a Country and these are not Laws. Do not think of it as such. This is a nerd website, and we do not need to be pedantic, arrogant, or overly strict about things. Which is why Guidelines are better than Rules when it comes to Discussion Threads and Content Revisions.

It is not a fallacy, it is just a fact. If two universes are demonstrably canon to each other, and share a wider setting, then feats and cosmological details about one scale to the other. This is basic. Whether or not it is inconsistent or valid is up to be decided later. The automatic assumption that it is and that it cannot scale is debating in bad faith, quite frankly. You are assuming the absolute worst case scenario, even when nothing proves it. If something is inconsistent, it is quite easily demonstable. If a work doesn't mention the same cosmological bits as another, that does not automatically means they don't share it. They only start not sharing them when they contradict each other.

You certainly are. You are also assuming that you cannot scale from each character's previously shown feats even thought they objectively happened in their respective works. That is just senseless downplaying, identical to the whole "If Superman doesn't blow up a planet in this comic we cannot apply his planet-busting feats to it" argument. "Grabbing from a pool of feats" is exactly what we do for every fiction. We read / watch / play the whole work, or the whole series, and we analyze and calculate the best feats therein. That these suddenly cease to count just because of a character from another named series is there, even when the two works are demonstably part of the same wider setting, is nonsense.
 
@DontTalk

Okay. Thank you for the help. You make a lot of logical sense as usual.
 
@Darkanine

The Supernatural / Scooby Doo Crossover is also canon to SPN, hilariously enough, although there is no scaling to be had there.
 
No offense but DT doesn't make sense here at all. The idea of throwing case-by-case situations out the window is essentially the same that nuances and proper analyzing should be discarded in the form of overgeneralized rules that benefits no one, no thing and makes the overall accuracy of the site considerby lesser. It essentially treats every crossover and thus every series as if it was the same, which is clearly not the case
 
I'm sorry, saying that we cannot scale a character to their own feats because they don't demonstrate them in every story is wrong. It's an argument already used by some for Marvel / DC Comics, and now is being discussed to apply to Crossovers. If the Crossover is inconsistent like Dissidia it is one thing, and there we can simply not scale everyone from it (Except the Warrior of Light, to whom Dissidia is an essential part of his story).

I wouldn't scale any character in Marvel or DC from JLA Vs Avengers, assuming it was undeniably canon to both, if that is what you are worrying.
 
I agree with Matt and Dark completely here. People are being too paranoid and are only thinking of the worst case scenario. Case-by-Case is essential in this type of thing. You know why? Because not all crossovers are the same. There is not one type of crossover. There is no scientific fact that proves all crossovers are alike. We have to address each one on its own merits.
 
Well, I suppose that we should probably continue where we left off with formulating the new regulation text then.
 
So I assume this would go on the Cano page, in which case I would suggest creating another section for that.

Maybe something like the following would be a start:

Suggestio
Crossovers

A crossover is the placement of two or more characters originating from different franchises into a single story. In the case that this story is part of the primary canon of both franchises one also talks about a shared universe.

Shared universes can generally be treated as if the entirety of both franchises is a large single franchise, meaning any form of scaling between characters of the two franchises is permitted, provided it is justified in the story.

For crossovers that are not shared universes several considerations have to be made beforehand.

Profiles for crossover not canon to the main story of any franchise participating may only be created under the conditions applying to alternative canon. See Alternative Canon and Composite Profiles for these regulations.

Crossover only canon to parts of the involved franchises can only motivate changes to the franchises they are canon to.

Characters appearing in crossovers may be assumed to be as powerful as their main canon versions, even if the crossover isn't canon to it, provided the following stipulations are considered:

  • If an author writes a crossover it will often sacrifice keeping the power of the characters involved like the originals for the sake of writing a more entertaining story. Like for example in the crossover between Luffy, Goku and Toriko. As such the character appearing in the crossover should only considered to be as powerful as the original, if that isn't beyond the degree of power reasonable for the events in the story or other participants in the crossover.
  • Most characters within the public domai should only be considered as powerful, or even of the same nature as, the originals if the crossover explicitely references their feats and nature. For example do many vampire stories references Dracula as the original vampire, without the vampires in the franchise following the same rules as Bram Stokers version. Another common example would be the Cthulhu Mythos, whichs beings appear in many franchises, sometimes even explicitly with similar background, without displaying remotely the same degree of power as the originals. The same applies to mythological beings.
  • If a character in a crossover does not share the same history as the original, for example due to being an alternative universe version, it should not be considered to posses the same degree of power as the original.
  • The crossover should be reasonably extensive, meaning that just brief cameos or references to another franchise should not be used for scaling purposes.
I added something regarding characters within the public domain in, as I believe one can agree on these being commonly misrepresented.

Edit: Added another thing regarding cameos.
 
If we are speaking of Cthulhu Mythos, even the original Public Domain stories have a wider shared Crossover Universe with Robert E. Howard's and Clark Ashton Smith's writings.
 
You mean the shared universe which we consider as canon to the story or something else?

And your point is...?
 
Of course, if the universe has the same statements as the original mythos then it becomes a weird case. By the definition of consistency, if the characters share all the same statements, then they should be held to the same standard. Like if they just dead ass copy paste quotes from the mythos into the work then the power may be allowed to be carried over so long as their are no major contradictions
 
I was mentioning it. It was't a "Shared Universe" at all, though. It was the simple result of friends having fun making references to each other's characters and stories in their own writings. The "Cthulhu Mythos" was never a cohesive thing originally. Only later did people look and try to fit it all in.

When Robert E. Howard has Conan meet what is almost certainly a Mi-Go in a story, and in another story the villain wants to summon what is most likely the avatar of an Outer God, he was just having fun.
 
Uh... Dante easily defeated Jedah Dohma with Infinity Stone, without breaking a sweat in Marvel vs. Capcom: Infinite... They're both from Capcom... Is it "Shared Universe"? Or the Marvel thing validates it.... If so.. Should we make a Page for Dante From MvCI? Uhhh...
 
Yeah, crossovers do have a bit of a case by case scenarios like many other things here. Yes, we do have noncanon crossovers that merge universes which won't apply to either, with only exceptions being original characters scaling to either their own or feats seen in the crossover. For example, Dark Kahn has a legit 2-C feat, but doesn't scale to anyone for obvious reasons.

But then there do exist crossovers both made by the same company and take place in the same universe to begin with. Feats may or may not be consistent though, or may only be consistent to one side. Wario and Donkey Kong for example are technically canon to Mario's timeline and are Mario's physical superior, so their composite keys are still legit even if their own feats from their own exclusive franchises are less impressive.

Then we have crossovers that are canon to one verse but not quite the other. Like SMT Dante as Matt mentioned is canonically an important character to SMT despite being especially OP compared to his DMC counterpart. His appearance and name are pretty much the same, and his backstory is slightly altered to fit in more with SMT, but then despite references to his main game, it's not canon to DMC and therefor can not be used to scale to the DMC cast. Battletoads and Double Dragon is legitimately canon to Battletoads given it's got a rather comical continuity in which the characters are well aware that they're video game characters; they're even the Real World creators of the game according to the story. The Lee Twins however are portrayed rather loosely with palette/color swap confusions mixed up, some of the Double Dragon enemies having loose names, and Dark Queen (That Battletoads main villain) still being the main villain of the game. Rare also does have an official Battletoads Chronology of all 5 games in which the Double Dragon Crossover is the 4th game. So while not sure if it's canon to DD or if Double Dragon feats could apply to the Battletoads, the Battletoads can still use feats from the Double Dragon crossover none of the less.
 
Meshifuari Arimota said:
Uh... Dante easily defeated Jedah Dohma with Infinity Stone, without breaking a sweat in Marvel vs. Capcom: Infinite...
They're both from Capcom... Is it "Shared Universe"? Or the Marvel thing validates it.... If so.. Should we make a Page for Dante From MvCI? Uhhh...
I recall that in the Spider-verse incident, there was one Spiderman using the techniques from Marvel VS Capcom, if anything, they are a shared universe in a parallel universe.

Hope that this doesn't sound confusing
 
CursedGentleman said:
I recall that in the Spider-verse incident, there was one Spiderman using the techniques from Marvel VS Capcom, if anything, they are a shared universe in a parallel universe.

Hope that this doesn't sound confusing
Not at all.
 
I ''still'' have to agree with Matt regarding this issue. DT's solution doesn't make nearly as much sense.
 
What do the rest of the staff think about DontTalk's latest suggestions?
 
>3-A Luffy

>Implying that the crossover doesnt take place after the ToP ovo
 
Well, I agree with 80% of this. I think who the characters of crossovers can be used, but I don't think that the upgrades should be added on the normal profile of the char. They can be used on battles, but should have his own profiles or if the version of the crossover been add, should be added as a key on the char's profile. Ah, don't forget of one important crossover Asura's Wrath x Street Fighter(I don't remember if this is cannon but...).
 
@Cursed

I was actually implying that Luffy should be Low 2-C scaling to post-ToP blue goku
 
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