A simple yet devastating Undertale Nerf

[Ayewale]

So this is a rather simple one.

Currently, every single character in the Undertale verse has Durability Negation on their profiles. This comes from the fact that they use soul magic, and all of their attacks target the soul, which probably means it gets past conventional durability. Which seems simple enough, however there's one glaring problem: attacks in Undertale undeniably are not just soul-based in nature, and are mostly physical. The proof of this are the items in the game, which include:

• Conventional weapons like a toy knife, a glove and a empty gun.
• Conventional armor like the Temmie Armor, an apron and a ******* bandanna.
• Conventional healing items like the Pies and Spider Candy.

I listed ten items but you could count on one hand the number of items that could be considered 'non-conventional' in some way, and you could reasonably count zero. All of these items either raise DEF, ATK or heal you, and while for other verses these would merely be dismissed as game mechanics, we all know that Undertale's "game mechanics" are treated as an actual part of the setting. We use ATK and DEF stats for ratings for monsters on the wiki, and every single item listed is on Frisk's profile (with their described effects on the wiki matching their effects in-game exactly). So there cannot be any argument made to dismiss them as not being valid examples.

One could try to argue that every single item in the game actually affects the 'soul', and thus they are not conventional, but this is a ridiculous claim. For one, all of the items are presented as they appear, and there is literally nothing indicating that any of these 'actually' affect the SOUL. For two, we actually have proof of the opposite: several items can be interacted with in the overworld and they act as normal. Butterscotch Pie is exactly that: it's a normal pie that Frisk eats, and it also heals damage. The Popato Chips (yes that is how it's spelt) are just potato chips. The tutus are tutus and papyrus acts and calls them such. So an argument that they are unconventional in some way is also false.

All of this are things that the wiki already treats as true; I haven't said anything that we don't already know. The reason why I'm repeating it is because all of this proves that conventional armor reduces damage from monster attacks (which is also proven by it's contrapositive: conventional weapons increase damage dealt to monsters).
However, every single monster's Attack Potency is noted as ignoring conventional durability.
This...simply isn't true. Conventional armor does reduce their damage. Therefore, their Durability Negation should be Limited to reflect the fact that their attacks very clearly don't ignore conventional armor.

This is a very simple change but it requires getting rid of every single cross-verse UT battle. Which is fine, because all of them assume monster attacks entirely ignore conventional durability; something that is hilariously easy to disprove.

That's all from me.

Agree: CurrySenpai, Deonment, TauanVictor, JAFTEN, Moritzva, Mad_Dog_Of_Fujiwara, Ikelaggan, Roachman40, Tllmbrg, pineappleman, Eficiente, ShadyBoi
Neutral: Thetechmaster36 (Leaning Agree), ShockingPsychic, Shmooply, TheMonkeMan, thelastmlg (agrees with revisions to how soul magic is described),
Disagree: Arceus0x (?), Comiphorous, Lord_JJJ, Originlima

Edit 1: A similar thread was made here proposing a more extreme downgrade from Durability Negation to none at all, one that many users seemed to accept. Since that was seemingly accepted, no reason why this shouldn't go through as well, seeing as we're making the exact same arguments.

Edit 2: Assertations that Frisk magically converts all SOUL damage to physical damage (or other monsters) have zero citation and amounts to wiki headcanon. The much simpler conclusion is that magic deals both physical and magical damage, hence it doesn't entirely negate durability.
Edit 3: this assertation is further debunked by Flowey getting smacked by Toriel's fire (thanks Jaften). Flowey is explicitly soul-less: you couldn't possibly explain this by saying that he intentionally converted the damage...which leads to the obvious conclusion: there 'is' no such conversion, monster magic simply deals both magical and physical damage. It is also worth pointing out that Toriel had no knowledge of Flowey's nature and so was using her regular fire magic.

 

[Comiphorous]

Conventional weapons like a toy knife, a glove and a empty gun.

Im sorry your using the weapons that FRISK USES (who doesn't use magic) to prove that MONSTERS (Use magic) don't directly attack the soul? I dont think i need to explain why thats stupid.

Conventional armor like the Temmie Armor, an apron and a ******* bandanna.

Frisk takes magic as physical hits, which is why those work. and temmie armor was made by monsters, so it's safe to assume armor that monsters made would naturally be able to defend them from magic.

Conventional healing items like the Pies and Spider Candy.

Frisk healing with food is no different from Link eating apples and somehow healing from being shot by a giant laser.

I listed ten items but you could count on one hand the number of items that could be considered 'non-conventional' in some way, and you could reasonably count zero. All of these items either raise DEF, ATK or heal you, and while for other verses these would merely be dismissed as game mechanics, we all know that Undertale's "game mechanics" are treated as an actual part of the setting. We use ATK and DEF stats for ratings for monsters on the wiki, and every single item listed is on Frisk's profile (with their described effects on the wiki matching their effects in-game exactly). So there cannot be any argument made to dismiss them as not being valid examples.

except your arguments are here due to the fact you failed to look into ANY of the profiles it seems and missed that monsters and humans take magic as physical hits. this is plastered on every single undertale profile we have.

 

[Ayewale]

...

I use the weapons because the weapons improve ATK (a universal stat) which makes the damage dealt to monsters increase.

Frisk taking magic as physical damage, to be blunt, is just headcanon on the wiki's part. There's nothing in Undertale that indicates that Frisk suddenly converts all the soul damage into physical damage (and it is completely uncited on Frisk's profile). Applying occam's razor here suggests the simpler solution: the attacks deal both magic and physical damage.

How does your point about Link's apples actually discredit mine about the healing items? You need to elaborate. And as an aside, the healing items are fairly complementary evidences; even if they were entirely wrong my point still stands completely.

Monsters do not "take magical damage as physical hits" (and there's quite a few profiles where this isn't stated btw). Again, where is this from?

My assertation is simple: since the magic damage can be reduced by conventional durability, it doesn't entirely ignore conventional durability.

 

[Roachman40]

following, will definitely give my thoughts on this later though.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Following but disagreeing.

 

[thetechmaster36]

Oh man lol

I'm neutral for now, sorta leaning towards agree; the fact that physical items are able to strengthen the user's endurance is a bit off-putting to me in regards to durability negation

 

[CurrySenpai]

I agree with op

 

[deonment]

Agree with the thread

Frisk healing with food is no different from Link eating apples and somehow healing from being shot by a giant laser.

There is a stark difference here, that is healing physical damage while we have to assume that these still physical items that do not indicate being spiritual can heal damage to the soul.
This is far and away less believable than link being able to tank a guardian beam and then recover from it with food because both of these things are physical, meanwhile, Frisk is here taking damage to the soul and healing it with physical items.

 

[Comiphorous]

here's my full take on this;

your points were already said in another thread, and debunked.

that is all.

 

[Ayewale]

here's my full take on this;

your points were already said in another thread, and debunked.

that is all.

This thread is a debunk towards removing dura neg. My thread simply proposes that it be nerfed to reflect the game proper. You have to actually debunk what I said instead of linking to a similar but different topic and going "gg". At the very least you have to repost the post that actually debunks what I said.

Also, I'm aware that the thread existed, I even linked it at the top of this post.

 

[Ikelaggan]

here's my full take on this;

your points were already said in another thread, and debunked.

that is all.

Bud that's a 2020 thread, that was the era of karma retribution sans with mftl+ speeds.

 

[Comiphorous]

This thread is a debunk towards removing dura neg. My thread simply proposes that it be nerfed to reflect the game proper. You have to actually debunk what I said instead of linking to a similar but different topic and going "gg". At the very least you have to repost the post that actually debunks what I said.

Also, I'm aware that the thread existed, I even linked it at the top of this post.

you use the same exact logic as them... assuming that the defensive items in game are conventional despite the fact the (as you assumed conventional apron) gives frisk a passive healing effect. hell the game makes fun of the fact some of those items shouldn't be capable of defending you.

using supernatural defensive items, calling them normal, as proof to 'nerf' dura neg is pretty bad.

Bud that's a 2020 thread, that was the era of karma retribution sans with mftl+ speeds.

damn thats crazy im looking at the thread and it had nothing to do with any ratings. that thread was about soul manipulation and dura neg.

 

[Ayewale]

you use the same exact logic as them... assuming that the defensive items in game are conventional despite the fact the (as you assumed conventional apron) gives frisk a passive healing effect. hell the game makes fun of the fact some of those items shouldn't be capable of defending you.

using supernatural defensive items, calling them normal, as proof to 'nerf' dura neg is pretty bad.

If not the apron, what about every other item in the game? You have to prove that they're not conventional, because the default assumption is that they are. Undertale making fun of itself isn't proof that they're unconventional, it's just the comedy rpg doing comedy rpg things. That's not proof that they're unconventional at all.

You have to prove that they are all supernatural, and sans a select few items, there isn't any. I didn't "assume" that they're conventional, I gave pretty clear reasonings in my original post as to why. Additionally, them having supernatural effects like healing =/= them providing a magical defense, you have to prove that, too.

 

[Jaften]

Only sorta related to the OP, but my problem with UT currently, in particular, is the assumption that magic attacks one-shot if you don't have resistance to soul manipulation, so Frisk MUST have resistance because they can take hits to the soul from attacks... that in no cases have ever one-shot anybody.

The only one that even gets close to one-shotting Frisk is Flowey at the beginning of the game, and even then it's still not a one-shot, and only seems to happen because of the wonky UT lowered defense mechanic (the thing in UT where if you have your guard down, you take more damage).

So yeah my problem is that there's no actual reason for the magic attacks to be able to one-shot characters without resistance, but the wiki just seems to assume they do that, and therefore people put Sans against characters way outside of his AP range and assume he stomps their asses, which I find to be pretty wanky. I like UT and Sans, but I really hate how people wank him on this wiki.

 

[Arceus0x]

Disagree with the thread FRA

 

[Comiphorous]

Only sorta related to the OP, but my problem with UT currently, in particular, is the assumption that magic attacks one-shot if you don't have resistance to soul manipulation, so Frisk MUST have resistance because they can take hits to the soul from attacks... that in no cases have ever one-shot anybody.

but they don't... it's been accepted the don't one shot?

 

[Arceus0x]

Only sorta related to the OP, but my problem with UT currently, in particular, is the assumption that magic attacks one-shot if you don't have resistance to soul manipulation, so Frisk MUST have resistance because they can take hits to the soul from attacks... that in no cases have ever one-shot anybody.

The only one that even gets close to one-shotting Frisk is Flowey at the beginning of the game, and even then it's still not a one-shot, and only seems to happen because of the wonky UT lowered defense mechanic (the thing in UT where if you have your guard down, you take more damage).

So yeah my problem is that there's no actual reason for the magic attacks to be able to one-shot characters without resistance, but the wiki just seems to assume they do that, and therefore people put Sans against characters way outside of his AP range and assume he stomps their asses, which I find to be pretty wanky. I like UT and Sans, but I really hate how people wank him on this wiki.

Pretty sure they don't anymore it's just that there are characters who don't have good soul durability and sans has his poison which is dura neg

 

[Jaften]

Pretty sure they don't anymore it's just that there are characters who don't have good soul durability and sans has his poison which is dura neg

How do you figure the soul durability of characters that aren't in UT and therefore don't actually have soul durability stats?
Trick question, you don't. Not objectively, anyways.

 

[Comiphorous]

If not the apron, what about every other item in the game? You have to prove that they're not conventional, because the default assumption is that they are. Undertale making fun of itself isn't proof that they're unconventional, it's just the comedy rpg doing comedy rpg things. That's not proof that they're unconventional at all.

You have to prove that they are all supernatural, and sans a select few items, there isn't any. I didn't "assume" that they're conventional, I gave pretty clear reasonings in my original post as to why. Additionally, them having supernatural effects like healing =/= them providing a magical defense, you have to prove that, too.

Bandage: you can eat it and heal from it

Faded ribbon: check quite literally says; If you're cuter, monsters won't hit you as hard. meaning it's making you take less damage not because you're wearing it.

Manly Bandana: Is a monster item, meaning it's made of magic

Old tutu: checking it confirms it's not even a defensive item, mocking it; Finally, a protective piece of armor.

Cloudy Glasses: Raises the invulnerability of your soul.

Temmie Armor: Is a monster item, meaning it's made of magic

Stained apron: psasively heals you

Cowboy hat: raises your physical strength by wearing it on your head.

Heart locket/The locket: Implied to be living. is a monster item, meaning it's made of magic anyway.


none of them are normal.

 

[Arceus0x]

How do you figure the soul durability of characters that aren't in UT and therefore don't actually have soul durability stats?
Trick question, you don't. Not objectively, anyways.

I mean usually we assume they have the same dura but that can also vary from person to person.
Sans still has his dura neg poison too.

 

[Jaften]

I mean usually we assume they have the same dura but that can also vary from person to person.
Sans still has his dura neg poison too.

And why is it fair for someone who should have tremendous LV, like Frieza who has blown up entire planets and eradicated many intelligent species, to have the same stats as some other characters that shouldn't have a high LV? How much durability should these characters have? Can you honestly say you can accurately calculate HP for non-UT characters, especially when you don't know how much EXP the things they've killed would give, and thus can't know how high their LV should be?

 

[Ayewale]

...

The Old Tutu is a defensive item. It even provides DEF. This is just blatantly false.
The Manly Bandana/Temmie Armor is the best case for one that provides purely magical defense.

Other than that, refer to what I said here:

Additionally, them having supernatural effects like healing =/= them providing a magical defense, you have to prove that, too.

You ignored this line because that debunks every other item listed.

but they don't... it's been accepted the don't one shot?

Nearly every single battle Sans has on his page has him winning via one-shotting his opponent due to soul damage dura neg. There's literally a threat ongoing about him versus Majin Buu featuring that except same power. And on nearly every monster page, it's stated that their attacks ignore conventional durability--i.e., they one-shot.
If it's been accepted that it's not a one shot, that means my thread should automatically pass since that means they have limited dura negation.

 

[Ayewale]

Disagree with the thread FRA

What are you FRA'ing? Comiphorous's "full take" is just linking to another thread and that's not a valid vote.

 

[Comiphorous]

The Old Tutu is a defensive item. It even provides DEF. This is just blatantly false.
The Manly Bandana/Temmie Armor is the best case for one that provides purely magical defense.

It's description states it's not a defensive item. the defense is applied somewhere else than the body.

Nearly every single battle Sans has on his page has him winning via one-shotting his opponent. There's literally a threat ongoing about him versus Majin Buu featuring that except same power. And on nearly every monster page, it's stated that their attacks ignore conventional durability--i.e., they one-shot.
If it's been accepted that it's not a one shot, that means my thread should automatically pass since that means they have limited dura negation.

he isn't one-shotting them. he's just killing them really fast.

and, no, it's not limited. it's still completely bypassing their durability, but it doesn't one shot. you need proof hax like this one-shot, otherwise it's assumed it doesn't. it's still full on dura-neg.

 

[Ayewale]

It's description states it's not a defensive item. the defense is applied somewhere else than the body.

he isn't one-shotting them. he's just killing them really fast.

It is a defensive item. This makes zero sense--it's not a defensive item because the description is ironic?

Defensive: "used or intended to defend or protect." In the context of UT items, anything that's armor.
Item: Anything categorized as an item in the game.

The tutu is every bit as much a defensive item as anything else. It is an armor, it is an item, it fits the dictionary definition of defensive. You're objectively wrong on this case.

He is one-shotting them, btw, this is exactly what's described in the majority of his battles. If the arguments weren't that he kills his opponent instantly but instead 'really quickly' then he would lose the vast majority of the battles he currently wins.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Nearly every single battle Sans has on his page has him winning via one-shotting his opponent due to soul damage dura neg.

While I have a few other things to comment on, I will say that Sans' dura negging is much more clear cut than the rest of the verse. His check says he can "only deal 1 damage", and this is reflected in his battle. He ignores any and all defensive items you equip because his attacks deal the same damage, no matter how durable Frisk is at that point in time. Sans should keep durability negation regardless of what happens to the rest of the verse

 

[Comiphorous]

It is a defensive item. This makes zero sense--it's not a defensive item because the description is ironic?

Defensive: "used or intended to defend or protect." In the context of UT items, anything that's armor.
Item: Anything categorized as an item in the game.

The tutu is every bit as much a defensive item as anything else. It is an armor, it is an item, it fits the dictionary definition of defensive. You're objectively wrong on this case.

It's not a defensive item because it's stated not to be. not really that hard to grasp. if it's literally saying 'this isn't a defensive item lol' then it isn't. if it gives defensive qualities, despite being stated to not be defensive, then theres some supernatural shit going on.

and lets just say im wrong, are you goimg to try and downgrade the entire verse because one item wasn't shown to be supernatural when every other item (that i gave proof of) is far from being normal at all? sounds like your picking at straws.

 

[Ayewale]

While I have a few other things to comment on, I will say that Sans' dura negging is much more clear cut than the rest of the verse. His check says he can "only deal 1 damage", and this is reflected in his battle. He ignores any and all defensive items you equip because his attacks deal the same damage, no matter how durable Frisk is at that point in time. Sans should keep durability negation regardless of what happens to the rest of the verse

Oh yes, he should keep durability negation.

However, it wouldn't be the one-shots that his victories treat it as, meaning that those battles have to be annulled no matter what.

 

[Comiphorous]

Oh yes, he should keep durability negation.

However, it wouldn't be the one-shots that his victories treat it as, meaning that those battles have to be annulled no matter what.

he isn't one-shotting in any of his victories though. really confused where you get that from.

 

[Bendynoah10]

What a totally not controversial thread

 

[TauanVictor]

I agree with the OP.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

I was under the impression that his wins weren't really "oneshots", more like "he can kill his opponents in a very short timeframe due to durability negation and soul poison"

 

[Ayewale]

It's not a defensive item because it's stated not to be. not really that hard to grasp. if it's literally saying 'this isn't a defensive item lol' then it isn't. if it gives defensive qualities, despite being stated to not be defensive, then theres some supernatural shit going on.

and lets just say im wrong, are you gonig to downgrade the entire verse because one item wasn't shown to be supernatural when every other item (that i gave proof of) is far from being normal at all? sounds like your picking at straws.

You're definition of 'defensive item' is nothing but your headcanon. It is a defensive item insofar as it's an item that is armor and used to defend (i.e. defensive). "But the game makes fun of it" proves nothing and I'm not going to argue farther than this.

I said this already but you ignored it:

...Additionally, them having supernatural effects like healing =/= them providing a magical defense, you have to prove that, too.

 

[Comiphorous]

You have to prove that they are all supernatural, and sans a select few items, there isn't any. I didn't "assume" that they're conventional, I gave pretty clear reasonings in my original post as to why. Additionally, them having supernatural effects like healing =/= them providing a magical defense, you have to prove that, too.

I did though? items like the notebook, cloudly glasses, and the temmie armor all rise your SOUL invulnerability frames.

and, they all literally defend you from attacks HITTING YOUR SOUL (seen in all of the fights, with frisk being hit by magical attacks to their soul, and their PHYSICAL ITEMS defending them.) it's indisputable that these items defend you from soul based attacks. the battle system literally shows frisk taking hits to their soul and being defended by their armor.

 

[Jaften]

I was under the impression that his wins weren't really "oneshots", more like "he can kill his opponents in a very short timeframe due to durability negation and soul poison"

But why is that assumed when the opponent's HP is literally unknowable?

 

[Ayewale]

I was under the impression that his wins weren't really "oneshots", more like "he can kill his opponents in a very short timeframe due to durability negation and soul poison"

Fair enough, but the actual battles on the wiki give him wins because he oneshots people (and to be clear, if he didn't instantly oneshot people like Frieza and Beerus the battles would be rated inconclusive).

I did though? items like the notebook, cloudly glasses, and the temmie armor all rise your SOUL invulnerability frames.

and, they all literally defend you from attacks HITTING YOUR SOUL (seen in all of the fights, with frisk being hit by magical attacks to their soul, and their PHYSICAL ITEMS defending them.) it's indisputable that these items defend you from soul based attacks. the battle system literally shows frisk taking hits to their soul and being defended by their armor.

Yes, I..fully agree that they defend you from soul-based attacks. Which is why we're saying monster magic has limited dura neg, because the items have conventional defense. We already agreed that temmie armor is a magical item, and the notebook is a weapon, and providing odd buffs =/= magical defense.

 

[Comiphorous]

Yes, I..fully agree that they defend you from soul-based attacks. Which is why we're saying monster magic has limited dura neg, because the items have conventional defense. We already agreed that temmie armor is a magical item, and the notebook is a weapon, and providing odd buffs =/= magical defense.

why would that make it limited...?

if an item defends you from soul based attacks, that doesn't make the soul attacks limited dura neg. that means the items (and the user, as they're still taking soul damage) is resisting the soul attacks.

 

[Jaften]

So I just remembered something that kinda proves the OP correct.

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxUsNsv5Sgu81xaERQWJ-3RBtN9Y6featH

How does a magic attack hit Flowey, who has no soul?

I vote "agree" to the thread in light of this.

 

[Comiphorous]

So I just remembered something that kinda proves the OP correct.

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxUsNsv5Sgu81xaERQWJ-3RBtN9Y6featH

How does a magic attack hit Flowey, who has no soul?

I vote "agree" to the thread in light of this.

toriel's magic has shown to be able to burn wood. no kidding it can hit a flower...

 

[Jaften]

toriel's magic has shown to be able to burn wood. no kidding it can hit a flower...

So you agree that magic attacks have an aspect of physical interaction to them? Good, we can count you as an agree now!