A revision of Super Sonic's speed

[Somelatinguy]

I’ve promised someone I’d make an effort not to talk about too many topics on each thread, so this one is only about Sonic's speed in his Super form.

“He fights faster than Solaris, which exists in the past, present and future.”
1) The villain has to be defeated in the three eras as clarified by Eggman, Silver and Shadow, so Super Shadow defeats it in the past, Super Sonic does so in the present and Super Silver does so in the future.

“He flies from Earth to a star cluster's area in 6 seconds.”
2) Ultimate G-merl flies away over 800 million times FTL and, 20 seconds later, the hedgehog knows he’s in a direction not being the one he initially flew in?
3) Time frames may pass during moments other than those shown on screen (wait until 5:08).
- “That doesn’t have to apply to this”: Super Sonic begins Nonagression already with Eggman, who began flying 2 seconds after him and at about 45° rather than at 90°.
4) The background actually shows the Local Interstellar Cloud and the stars embedded in it.

“He flies past many stars while fighting Nega-Mother Wisp.”
5) He does so sooner than he flies past meteoroids and rings? Those stars are fake ones depicting motion in what someone else called “interstellar parallax” last year.
- “Those aren’t Space Flecks but bad cinematic time”: He and she essentially do the same action the former and other characters do in other battles.

“He easily chases an Eggman traveling in a machine on an occasion.”
6) The latter's speed just scales to the former's.
7) BTW, Base Sonic easily reaches an Eggman traveling in a machine with the initial distance being shorter on many occasions and the fewer ones with the latter outrunning the former on foot must either have an explanation or be outliers, so Super Sonic isn’t much faster.

Given this, all the statements that his Super form’s speed surpasses, matches or approaches that of light must be just hyperboles.

My proposal? To classify Super Sonic as simply faster than Base Sonic.

 

[ElixirBlue]

My proposal? To classify Super Sonic as simply faster than Base Sonic.

You know Super Sonic has many more calcs and feats that are being used then just the things you’ve “debunk”.

 

[Theuser789]

“He fights faster than Solaris, which exists in the past, present and future.”
1) The villain has to be defeated in the three eras as clarified by Eggman, Silver and Shadow, so Super Shadow defeats it in the past, Super Sonic does so in the present and Super Silver does so in the future.

There's a thread downgrading Solaris, but even so what you are saying is fanon, and nothing you linked is evidence of a debunk

He flies from Earth to a star cluster's area in 6 seconds.”
2) Ultimate G-merl flies away over 800 million times FTL and, 20 seconds later, the hedgehog knows he’s in a direction not being the one he initially flew in?
3) Time frames may pass during moments other than those shown on screen (wait until 5:08).
- “That doesn’t have to apply to this”: Super Sonic begins Nonagression already with Eggman, who began flying 2 seconds after him and at about 45° rather than at 90°.
4) The background actually shows the Local Interstellar Cloud and the stars embedded in it.

This is getting a recalc, but even so all this points are honestly just irrelevant nitpicks like the angle of the characters, doesn't change it's MFTL

“He flies past many stars while fighting Nega-Mother Wisp.”
5) He does so sooner than he flies past meteoroids and rings? Those stars are fake ones depicting motion in what someone else called “interstellar parallax” last year.
- “Those aren’t Space Flecks but bad cinematic time”: He and she essentially do the same action the former and other characters do in other battles.

I have no idea what the frick you are talking about here, those stars are very real, since they are literally in space and not a pocket reality, and all those links are clearly very different from the actual feat

“He easily chases an Eggman traveling in a machine on an occasion.”
6) The latter's speed just scales to the former's.
- BTW, Base Sonic easily reaches an Eggman traveling in a machine with the initial distance being shorter on many occasions and the fewer ones with the latter outrunning the former on foot must either have an explanation or be outliers, so Super Sonic isn’t much faster.

This is worded weirdly, but I am pretty sure Sonic scaling to the Egg Mobile was already removed as a justification, if not it should be

Given this, all the statements that his Super form’s speed surpasses, matches or approaches that of light must be just hyperboles.

What? This conclusion was straight up pulled out of your ass, nothing you said lead to this

My proposal? To classify Super Sonic as simply faster than Base Sonic.

No

 

[TheShieldToronto76]

What? This conclusion was straight up pulled out of your ass, nothing you said lead to this
No

Damn did not had to go that harsh to say he pulled outta his ass.

 

[Theuser789]

I don't know how I could have made that "nicer", it nonsensical

 

[Somelatinguy]

There's a thread downgrading Solaris, but even so what you are saying is fanon, and nothing you linked is evidence of a debunk

Then what does Eggman mean by "Defeating it here, now, would do nothing"?

This is getting a recalc, but even so all this points are honestly just irrelevant nitpicks like the angle of the characters, doesn't change it's MFTL

"So everything that debunks me is nitpicking".

I have no idea what the frick you are talking about here, those stars are very real, since they are literally in space and not a pocket reality, and all those links are clearly very different from the actual feat

I don't mean a pocket reality, but this: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpaceFlecks
- "You're using TV Tropes": Chariot190 used it for the non-canon game mechanics argument and the real cal howard used a trope that is in it, so I can use it too.

This is worded weirdly, but I am pretty sure Sonic scaling to the Egg Mobile was already removed as a justification, if not it should be

How is it worded weirdly, to begin with?

What? This conclusion was straight up pulled out of your ass, nothing you said lead to this

Just scrutinize the above.

No

You should.

 

[Theuser789]

Then what does Eggman mean by "Defeating it here, now, would do nothing"

That he is onmipresent through time

"So everything that debunks me is nitpicking".

There's no debunk

I don't mean a pocket reality, but this: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpaceFlecks
- "You're using TV Tropes": Chariot190 used it for the non-canon game mechanics argument and the real cal howard used a trope that is in it, so I can use it too.

I am not those two, I don't use TV tropes, don't see any debunk

How is it worded weirdly, to begin with?

Saying stuff like "Eggman's machine" instead of Eggmobile

Just scrutinize the above.

It doesn't mean anything

You should

I shouldn't

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

This is (mostly) just head-canon, misinformation and argument out of ignorance.

*There's already CRTs involving Super Sonic's speed kinda sus this CRT suddenly appeared just a few days after a previous Super Sonic speed downgrade CRT was closed.

*As already mentioned above there are already multiple speed calcs (above FTL) on the Sonic verse page that have all been evaluated and accepted.

*Its already accepted that Super Sonic has a variable tier that's being shown in-canon that Super Sonic's power varies.

This CRT is pointless and won't be accepted (plus it's was already agreed upon that Super Sonic's speed would be a discussion for another time as stated by a staff member not talking about the immeasurable speed CRT btw) , I'm going to suggest this thread gets closed before the typical pointless circular arguments get going.

 

[Somelatinguy]

That he is onmipresent through time

Then what do Silver and Shadow mean by their responses?

There's no debunk

Just read the points carefully.

I am not those two, I don't use TV tropes, don't see any debunk

Those three tropes are still valid.

Saying stuff like "Eggman's machine" instead of Eggmobile

Are Egg Mobiles faster than other machines of Eggman?

It doesn't mean anything

Again, please scrutinize the above.

I shouldn't

Yes, you should.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

OMG do you have to pull the this person is ignorant card and just assume that?

Not a assumption when the OP can simply look on the Sonic Verse's page and see the multiple calcs proving MFTL+ super forms thus disproving their points.

 

[Theuser789]

Then what do Silver and Shadow mean by their responses?

That they are fighting him through time, not that they are stuck in a time period, also that they are Silver comes from the future that got ruined by Iblis, and that the past held down Shadow beforehand, not their location

Just read the points carefully

They are bad

Those three tropes are still valid.

They aren't

Are Egg Mobiles faster than other machines of Eggman?

No, I said that should be removed from the page, since base Sonic is faster

Again, please scrutinize the above.

There's nothing to scrutinize

Yes, you should.

No

 

[Somelatinguy]

Not a assumption when the OP can simply look on the Sonic Verse's page and see the multiple calcs proving MFTL+ super forms thus disproving their points.

You speak as if all the knowledge I have on Sonic came from his VS Battles profile, but I have further evidence on Base Sonic... This isn't the time for that.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

You speak as if all the knowledge I have on Sonic came from his VS Battles profile, but I have further evidence on Base Sonic... This isn't the time for that.

"Your knowledge" is nothing more but your own poorly constructed personal interpretation.

Your points haven't debunked the multiple accepted MFTL+ calcs for super forms nor actually done much of anything tbh.

Saying "Super Sonic approaching, matching and surpassing light speed must be hyperbole" with zero actual concrete evidence to backup that statement is a blatant assumption on your part.

I will no longer entertain this obtuse CRT anymore and hopefully this thread gets closed ASAP to prevent further discourse.

 

[Somelatinguy]

That they are fighting him through time, not that they are stuck in a time period, also that they are Silver comes from the future that got ruined by Iblis, and that the past held down Shadow beforehand, not their location

"Defeating it here, now, would no nothing", there being three eras and there being three opponents mean Solaris has to be defeated "here and now, in another place and in the past, and in another place and in the future".

They are bad

How are they bad?

They aren't

So all game mechanics are canon and Route 210 is as small as seen on screen?

No, I said that should be removed from the page, since base Sonic is faster

Then Super Sonic can easily chase an Egg Mobile and Base Sonic can easily reach it with the initial distance being shorter.
So, Super Sonic isn't much faster than Base Sonic.

There's nothing to scrutinize

Yes, there is.

No

Yes.

 

[Somelatinguy]

"Your knowledge" is nothing more but your own poorly constructed personal interpretation.

I think yours is.

Your points haven't debunked the multiple accepted MFTL+ calcs for super forms nor actually done much of anything tbh.

You haven't actually debunked them.

Saying "Super Sonic approaching, matching and surpassing light speed must be hyperbole" with zero actual concrete evidence to backup that statement is a blatant assumption on your part.

The points above it constitute the evidence.

I will no longer entertain this obtuse CRT anymore and hopefully this thread gets closed ASAP to prevent further discourse.

Do as you wish.

 

[Theuser789]

"Defeating it here, now, would no nothing", there being three eras and there being three opponents mean Solaris has to be defeated "here and now, in another place and in the past, and in another place and in the future".

That's not what that means, at all, it means Solaris exists in all of time and thus should be hit in all of time, the last setence is pure headcanon

How are they bad?

Self-evident, you don't debunk anything, simple just focus on irrelevant comparassion or points

So all game mechanics are canon and Route 210 is as small as seen on screen?

Strawmen, never said that

Then Super Sonic can easily chase an Egg Mobile and Base Sonic can easily reach it with the initial distance being shorter.
So, Super Sonic isn't much faster than Base Sonic.

No, terrible and laughble point, it's very clear in lore that he is far faster, those two scenarios possesse far different context

Yes, there is.

Nope

Yes.

No

This should be closed tbh

 

[Planck69]

Yeah, this thread looks misinformed as hell and filled with poor assumptions (as usual).

Not as though there's really a reason to argue since it's getting rejected anyway.

 

[Theuser789]

Not as though there's really a reason to argue since it's getting rejected anyway.

MFTL isn't being rejected and immesurable is still being argued in another thread

 

[Theuser789]

I’ve promised someone I’d make an effort not to talk about too many topics on each thread

Who asked you?

 

[Planck69]

MFTL isn't being rejected and immesurable is still being argued in another thread

I'm referring to the thread proposals.

 

[Theuser789]

Oh ok, my apologies

 

[QuasiYuri]

Damn did not had to go that harsh to say he pulled outta his ass.

Tbf given who did the thread it's not that wrong.

 

[Somelatinguy]

That's not what that means, at all, it means Solaris exists in all of time and thus should be hit in all of time, the last setence is pure headcanon

Sonic has to be revived in order for there to be three opponents, so Eggman's, Silver's and Shadow's statements mean there have to be three opponents in three eras.

Self-evident, you don't debunk anything, simple just focus on irrelevant comparassion or points

"Irrelevant" things again, huh? So, "everything that debunks me is nitpicking".

Strawmen, never said that

You said those tropes aren't valid.

No, terrible and laughble point, it's very clear in lore that he is far faster, those two scenarios possesse far different context

What is that context difference?

Nope

Yes.

No

This should be closed tbh

Yes and no.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Rejected Somelatinguy thread #262626

 

[Theuser789]

Sonic has to be revived in order for there to be three opponents, so Eggman's, Silver's and Shadow's statements mean there have to be three opponents in three eras.

Sonic wasn't revived for that reason, but because he was needed to strike Solaris in all of time, stop using headcanon

"Irrelevant" things again, huh? So, "everything that debunks me is nitpicking".

As I said, there's no debunk

You said those tropes aren't valid.

The trope that you linked isn't, I don't care about TV tropes

What is that context difference?

Super Sonic wasn't trying to chase Eggman, we can clearly see him going in curves to destroy the ships, base Sonic wasn't, the fact you are arguing this makes you sound like a troll

Yes.

Nope

Yes and no.

Opposite of yes, opposite of no

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Sonic: Exists
Random downgrades:

 

[ShakeResounding]

I don't want to poison the well but I'm almost 100% certain there's some mischief going about. This isn't even directed at OP either

 

[TheShieldToronto76]

You do realize people have views on Sonic right?

You can’t expect someone to believe Immeasurable Sonic as facts.

I disagree with the OP tho I argue that the Immeasurable feat is an outliner.

 

[Somelatinguy]

Sonic wasn't revived for that reason, but because he was needed to strike Solaris in all of time, stop using headcanon

Petitio principii... Ok, step by step:
Eggman: No, it is a transcendent life form that exists in the past, present and future. Defeating it here, now, would do nothing.
Solaris is defeated "here and now" and that does something, because of the following...
Silver: No, I won't give up. There has to be a way. If you say it exists in the past, present and future, I'll destroy them all at once!
Solaris has to be defeated in the three eras at once.
Shadow: Certainly, it might have been possible, if he was still alive.
Sonic has to be revived in order for there to be three opponents in those three eras.

As I said, there's no debunk

As I said, you're just saying the points you can't debunk are minor details.

The trope that you linked isn't, I don't care about TV tropes

How is that one invalid? He and she essentially do the same action the former and other characters do in other battles.

Super Sonic wasn't trying to chase Eggman, we can clearly see him going in curves to destroy the ships, base Sonic wasn't, the fact you are arguing this makes you sound like a troll

Super Sonic doesn't destroy the ships, so he does chase Eggman until the latter falls.

Nope

Yep.

Opposite of yes, opposite of no

Opposite of each.

 

[Theuser789]

Sonic has to be revived in order for there to be three opponents in those three eras.

Past and future isn't an era, he needs to be revived so they can hit him in all of time

As I said, you're just saying the points you can't debunk are minor details.

Because they are, cope

How is that one invalid? He and she essentially do the same action the former and other characters do in other battles.

They clearly don't

Super Sonic doesn't destroy the ships, so he does chase Eggman until the latter falls.

He clearly does and then corners Eggman

Yep.

Nah

Opposite of each.

I don't see how the opposite of the word each is relevant to our discussion

What is the opposite of each?

Antonyms for each include no, neither, none, hardly any, not many, not much, a minority of, a trickle of, zero and not one. Find more opposite words at wordhippo.com!

www.wordhippo.com

 

[Somelatinguy]

Past and future isn't an era, he needs to be revived so they can hit him in all of time

Eggman states Solaris exists in the three eras, so the past and future are eras; and Sonic has to be revived so the three opponents can defeat it in the three eras.

Because they are, cope

Why are they minor details? Because you can't debunk them?

They clearly don't

How do they not do the same that is done in those other moments?

He clearly does and then corners Eggman

He flies through the same path Eggman flies through.

Nah

Yeah.

I don't see how the opposite of the word each is relevant to our discussion

What is the opposite of each?

Antonyms for each include no, neither, none, hardly any, not many, not much, a minority of, a trickle of, zero and not one. Find more opposite words at wordhippo.com!

www.wordhippo.com

I mean the opposite of each clause.

 

[Theuser789]

Eggman states Solaris exists in the three eras, so the past and future are eras; and Sonic has to be revived so the three opponents can defeat it in the three

He doesn't say Solaris exists in three eras

This is the only thing relevant in that entire comment lol

 

[Somelatinguy]

1) He says it exists in the past, present and future.

The comment has other relevant points.

2) The details aren't minor: Ultimate G-merl flies in a direction and Super Sonic flies in another one 20 seconds later, time frames may pass also during moments not shown on screen with Eggman beginning his flight after the super hedgehog, and the battle's setting must be the Local Interstellar Cloud.
3) There's no reason for those "stars" not to be Space Flecks.
4) Eggman flies under the ship and Super Sonic is still chasing him.

 

[ShakeResounding]

This CRT should be closed for a few reasons tbh.

Given this, all the statements that his Super form’s speed surpasses, matches or approaches that of light must be just hyperboles.

You believe that Super Sonic as a whole shouldn't be near the speed of light yet are content with classifying him as vaguely superior to Base Sonic. You then say this,

You speak as if all the knowledge I have on Sonic came from his VS Battles profile, but I have further evidence on Base Sonic... This isn't the time for that.

in response to this,

Not a assumption when the OP can simply look on the Sonic Verse's page and see the multiple calcs proving MFTL+ super forms thus disproving their points.

Which alludes to the fact that you believe Base Sonic should be downgraded as well. So... Why not start with Base? Especially since you're talking about either A) Feats that were already discussed to death and seen as valid, or B) Feats that are being discussed in separate threads.

You have numerous feats to debunk if you want to downgrade Sonic from MFTL+, let alone FTL, especially since there are several yet to be implemented on the profile but accepted. And I'll enjoy seeing the attempts, sure, but you seemed to have started at the wrong place with not many good reasons to back up this downgrade that weren't discussed in some form already.

 

[sanicspood]

yea this should be closed

 

[Antvasima]

I will do so then.

 

[Antvasima]

Somelatinguy wants to make another reply, but we will have to close this thread shortly after that.

 

[Somelatinguy]

This CRT should be closed for a few reasons tbh.

Let's see.

You believe that Super Sonic as a whole shouldn't be near the speed of light yet are content with classifying him as vaguely superior to Base Sonic.

I see both points as consistent with each other.

You then say this,
in response to this,
Which alludes to the fact that you believe Base Sonic should be downgraded as well. So... Why not start with Base? Especially since you're talking about either A) Feats that were already discussed to death and seen as valid, or B) Feats that are being discussed in separate threads.

I started with Sonic's Super form because, if it's not FTL, then much less is his base form FTL.

You have numerous feats to debunk if you want to downgrade Sonic from MFTL+, let alone FTL, especially since there are several yet to be implemented on the profile but accepted. And I'll enjoy seeing the attempts, sure, but you seemed to have started at the wrong place with not many good reasons to back up this downgrade that weren't discussed in some form already.

If the feats on this thread are proven non-legit, then it's less likely that others are legit.

I'm not saying anything else, as I've already made my points.

Thanks, Antvasima, for the chance for this last reply.

 

[Theuser789]

Nothing in this thread was debunked, nor proven to not be legit

 

[Somelatinguy]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/a-revision-of-super-sonics-speed.114069/#post-3650443

Antvasima, this can be closed now.