A problem with how we measure Mindhax and Soulhax Potency

[ShivaShakti]

Currently across the wiki, Mind and Soul Manip are measured by the number of people someone can mind or soul hax at the same time. I personally have a big problem with this.

First of all this seems to be a classic case of "Quantity over Quality". Lets compare two feats for example. We'll say there are two guys with mind hax, one is mind controlling a trained Psychic who can easily resists most types of Mind Manipulation, versus a guy who controls a crowd of random civilians with no supernatural power or resistance to help them stand up to Mind Control.

The normal and more logical assumption would be to think that the man mindhaxxing someone with experience against mind hax, would be more impressive than a guy controlling groups of random people with no powers at a time. The very same can be said for Soul hax. Being able to hax groups of people without resistance should be taken more as a range or sustenance feat rather than the potency of their mind control.

I'd say we should measure Mindhax and Soulhax potency based on the level of resistance overcome. Haxxing someone without resistance should be baseline, and haxxing someone who has the power to resists would be above that and so forth.

Another thing we should keep in mind is, not all verses are the same. There may be some verses that promote "haxxing large numbers is a far more impressive feat than haxxing a guy with resistance", and some other verses that promote the opposite. Keeping this in mind, we should also make case by case basis evaluations, but unless otherwise specified, I propose we default to resistance over numbers.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

Why must you be such an Agent of Chaos Kira?

Following for now.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Why must you be such an Agent of Chaos Kira?
Following for now.

Let me tell you a secret. Coffee is just bean soup.

 

[Antoniofer]

Its an arbitrary criteria indeed, but beyond affecting someone that has resisted x manipulation before, there's no real way to measure "hax potency" (although, is pretty common that characters are capable to resist mental assaults by having elevated willpower).

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Following for now as well.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I agree with this. Makes a lot more sense to me than the way it's currently measured tbh.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Its an arbitrary criteria indeed, but beyond affecting someone that has resisted x manipulation before, there's no real way to measure "hax potency" (although, is pretty common that characters are capable to resist mental assaults by having elevated willpower).

Well thats why I said verses are different. Sometimes a verse has a different showcase for Soul or Mind potency, but unless otherwise specified, we should default to something more logical.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Yeah, some verses will measure potency by the "strength" of the mind/soul, rather than by how many "baseline" ones people can affect. Say, Ergenverse with souls that get stronger along with the character's regular power, and their minds that use psychic abilities measured by the range they can expand their Divine Sense.

 

[Antoniofer]

D&D and Anima are also example, how potent is mental, form and essence manipulation do not depends of the number of the affected, but rather is given a set difficulty; in the case of Anima, it the potency depends of the intelligence (for accessing to more powerful spells), willpower (for accessing to more powerful psionics), potential or divinity.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

So it's gonna be a case by case basis thing then?.

 

[InfiniteSped]

You can surely get a good idea of how most verse's treat it and explain it in the profiles. The issue is how they'll behave when facing another system.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Bleach essentially works the same way as Ergenverse above. I do think it should be case by case not just some arbitrary thing slapped on to every verse regardless of mechanics.

 

[Antoniofer]

The standard should be that the x manipulation that bypasses the resistances of another character is the more potent by default; now, where do we draw the line between a power not being enough potent and a character being resistent? That is case-by-case, then one "equalize".

 

[DontTalkDT]

With some exceptions a psychic mind controlling all of humanity is stronger than one that only does one person.

Likewise, with some exceptions, a mind control bypassing a level of resistance is better than one that doesn't.

Whether mind control that works on 10 people is better than mind control that bypasses resistance against 2 people worth of mind control is pretty much impossible to tell.


So yeah, it is kinda case by case. Usually number of people is the more practical indicator, though. Simply because bypassing 3 levels of mind control resistance in one work of fiction is hard to compare to bypassing 1 level in another. Meanwhile minds of random humans are all more or less the same.

 

[Antoniofer]

I would associate affecting x amount of people with range rather than with potency, but if the character in kind of have powerful mind manipulation and decide to divide its potency to gain range then I'm fine with rating its potency based in the range of the power. Is not really different resisting a mental inducement that induce, let's say, stupidity from someone with a singular range than resisting it from someone that affected 10 targets.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I feel like there is no correct answer to this.

Like... there are things like aoe spells where weather one or a thousand fit into it, they will all be affected the same. I'd argue number has no bearing on that thing's potency. But then, someone casually warping the mind of every human on the planet is an obvious show of potency. How overcoming resistances mixes is also pretty unclear.

I don't think there is a correct way to measure this stuff.

 

[InfiniteSped]

There really isn't. Using the "number potency" for everything kinda takes away from other types, and might end up with silly stuff if you mix it with a "strength system", like 10^27 Bleach potency for soul haxing atoms.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

I'll add one bit.

Any statements of "infinite potency hax" should be taken with a massive grain of salt, and must require more than just singular statements and the like.

It's frankly kind of ridiculous how easy it is to slip this by with singular statements of varying quality.

 

[Elizhaa]

I think we already treated both abilities in a case by case basis already. As a solution regarding some confusions, we could add a text like this below from the Probability Manipulation's page to both pages:

• Due to the many potential applications of such an ability, it is exceptionally versatile and its capabilities should be judged on a case by case basis.

 

[GyroNutz]

I half-agree with this, in that people tend to use the "more people = more potency" idea linearly. But mindhax that allows the user to control cities, countries, galaxies etc have a clear difference in potency. Imo it should be treated as a factor to get a general idea of how strong mindhax is. Simply saying it should be judged on a case by case basis is too vague.

 

[DontTalkDT]

• Due to the many potential applications of such an ability, it is exceptionally versatile and its capabilities should be judged on a case by case basis.

I feel like that note doesn't really adress this issue, as it's less about versatility here than how to measure potency.

If we gonna add something to the page, maybe something more in the direction of:

"When judging the potency of [mind attacks / soul attacks], and the resistance against it, there is a variety of factors to be considered. Such as the mechanisms involved, how many people the [mind attacks / soul attacks] can affect, whether it has demonstrated to break through resistances, how great the effects are etc."

 

[Elizhaa]

GyroNutz and DontTalkDT, I think your points make sense on my note.

DontTalkDT, I think your proposed addition could work a solution.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I mean, it's heavily case by case on how mind and soul manipulation is measured. Population is the most linear way to do it, but I will say there are other things to factor. Being able to manipulate an entire army of insects and/or other animals isn't linearly greater or weaker than mind manipulation of one human. Hence there's a reason Animal Manipulation exists. Though, manipulating an army of humans is often greater than manipulation of one human.

Though, I should note that mind manipulation can also have things similar to how inverse square law is factored. Someone is passively mind manipulating an entire population, and a few individuals manage to resist it, that's not too crazy levels of mind resistance. But something like the character is more than capable of mind maniulation of an entire population, but then tries to focus all that might on one target, but that one target still resists it. That's an example great resistance.

DontTalk also makes sense as usual.

 

[Antoniofer]

I would suggest that power's potency (such soul/mind hax) that requiere effort and/or are performed as a direct effect can be measured by the amount of targets affected, is the case of psychics that concentrate in order to enhance their abilities, or those that uses psychic energy.

Abilities that are do not requiere effort and/or are made indirectly however do not increases their potency by affecting more targets, such those that cause madness/fear due their nature, using a passive aura, or those caused by susbstances such poisonous gases, drugs and hallucinogens.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I agree with that, though it doesn't help with comparing haxes with different kinds of showings for power.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Although, stuff like mass corruption based on how much of "Unique corruption substance" is effecting the area and all of that being manipulated into one target is also something to consider.

 

[Antoniofer]

So, something else to be discussed? Any change to be performed?

 

[Naeblis495]

Mind/soul hax potency should be number of stuff haxxed + whatever resistance they bypass.

As a general rule at least , case by case should obviously be discussed in the VS thread .

50 humans minds/souls haxxed with a previous feat of resistance worth 3 mind/soul each, should be greater than 100 humans minds/souls haxxed with no resistance feat .

That is my opinion

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I would prefer that this isn't just converted into "case by case", in which case we end up with literally no way to compare what may be above resistances and what may not.

Also, I feel like it is being treated like resisting something that affected a lot of people and resisting something through sheer wilpower, soul stuff, pride, whatever else you can imagine are mutually exclusive things. They are not, both are resisting.

The actual issue iss that one way or another, we need any sort of ability to compare potencies, and two different systems that are completely incompatible make that impossible.

Unless there'd be some way to make them compatible.

 

[Antoniofer]

Mm, would resisting something via an enhanced emotion (such willpower or pride) be considered resistance for the user, or a weakness for the ability? Talking about non-supernatural emotions, by "equalizing", someone with the same level of emotion should be able to resist the ability, even if not showed resisting a similar power.

As for measuring potency, there's no realexample to compare, but as recommendation, someone that affected an certain area with mental manipulation means it surpassed the resistance of all beings within the are (although, with no feats from anyone inside, doesn't mean much unless statements).

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

It shouldn't, at least not to me. Some verses think enough willpower and shit can protect you, others don't think the same at all.

I still hold to the idea that unless the technique has actual statements or sufficient logic backing the premise, no matter the means of resisting, it should be resistance and not some caveat or weakness.

And still, most things that use an "area" are games, in my experience, and those some games let you resist the effects based on certain traits. It is very common in exalted, I am sure I've seen it in D&D, so they can still be very much resisted.

 

[Antoniofer]

Welp, if that kind of verses face each other, that means that the one where willpower do not help you to resist mental attacks has a more potent mind hax that the one where you can resist it by willpower (unless that one last verse has supernatural levels of willpower, in whose case it can be either way).

In those cases is important to known the reason why the character resisted x hax, like resisting hypnosis cuz the character is stupid, of fear inducement cuz muh pride, etc. In D&D one resist magical induced status due willpower + ??? (base resistance increases by level depending of the category, but that is just gamewise) + additional power, meanwhile in Anima it increases by spiritual power + potential + additional power.

 

[GyroNutz]

Why would that be a measure of potency? It just means that the mindhax works by different mechanics to achieve the same sort of result.

 

[Antoniofer]

Is there any other Mind Manipulation's mechanic aside of affecting the mind? Mechanics would be notable if one perform mind manipulation via magic, or doing it via aura manipulation, but MM by itself is a effect-type power.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

This is no different from one verse letting you have resistance to heat merely by being durable, while another disregards it. Or one giving you resistance to diseases due to becoming more durable, while another one doesn't. Things giving you resistance in World A shouldn't equate someone with a similar trait in World B instantly resisting it if World B hasn't shown that such a thing gives you resistance. The only case in which it should, I feel, is not because it gives resistance but because it is made clear the technique has issues with X and Y, i.e. a caveat or weaknesses.

If we turn things too much into case by case, common ground is lost and it becomes downright impossible at times to say if resistances can be applicable or not. Plus, this affects a metric ton of profiles so no decision should be taken until more see this thread.

 

[GyroNutz]

Affecting the mind is the effect, the mechanics is how the mind is affected and nine times out of ten shouldn't be relevant.

 

[Antoniofer]

Although, a difference from stuff like mental or soul manipulation, we exactly known how to measure how potent are heat or cold effects. In the same way, real life people is less likely to get sick or poisoned by having enhanced health, few verses have willpower as a way to make mental attacks more likely to fail: just a though of mine, if in x verse someone resisted a mental assault be having ehanced anger, and in y verse someone is capable to mind hax a character equally angry (although determinating how angry someone is it's not obvious), then, from the point of view of x verse, the MM from verse y is more potent.

 

[Spinoirr]

Like a character mind haxs a planet is more then mind haxing a multiverse

That never really made sense to me

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

When has that ever been a thing, Spino?

We do know how to rate those, but a durable body doesn't equate a durable immune system. The ways in which you can gain a durable body, though, help with the strengthening of the immune system. Likewise, durable metals aren't commonly the most heat resistant. Despite this, durability lets you resist heat no matter what in some verses. Is not a standard we can equalize to another series just because they have a similarly durable body.

The example doesn't work entirely because X or Y thing helping you resist in one world, doesn't equate it helping you resist in another.

 

[Antoniofer]

I don't see why not, what made a character resistent against an ability do not work against the other one, or at least, is not enough; is not really different from an ability with a weakness, let's say sadness inducement not working on perfectionists, not working in a perfectionist from another verse. Don't say that the power is potent by itself, but from the point of view of another verse, the power is more effective compared to the other, is the kind of stuff that people should discuss in versus matches.