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A problem with how we measure Mindhax and Soulhax Potency
- Thread starter ShivaShakti
- Start date
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I would like to somehow come up with a system where we fairly judge mind hax potency by these 3 criteria, without favoring one over the other like we currently do.Firephoenixearl said:
- Number of people affected.
- Layers of resistance
- Amount of control over the mind. (Like having Mind control and Perception manipulation> just having mind control)
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It won't work if it has more than 1 criteria. Cus then we have to measure on 3 different scales which is impossible.
It's like saying
Who is better Muhammad Ali or Usain Bolt?
The smart answer here would be to answer with a question "In what regard?" because there are 2 different scales (boxing skill and speed) so it is impossible to determine a "who is better?".
Similarly if we end up with more than 1 scale it will be impossible to determine a "more potent mind hax".
Example:
If we're gonna end up finding a "solution" its gonna be using 1 system, as logically flawed as that may be, it will at least be usable, unlike any other system which would include several unquantifiable factors into potency.
So im sorry but your idea cannot be used.
It's like saying
Who is better Muhammad Ali or Usain Bolt?
The smart answer here would be to answer with a question "In what regard?" because there are 2 different scales (boxing skill and speed) so it is impossible to determine a "who is better?".
Similarly if we end up with more than 1 scale it will be impossible to determine a "more potent mind hax".
Example:
- X can mindhax 100 people, cannot bypass layers of resistance and has mind control and perception manipulation.
- Y can mind hax past 1 layer of resistance (in a verse where number of people is not potency) and has mind control and fear manipulation
If we're gonna end up finding a "solution" its gonna be using 1 system, as logically flawed as that may be, it will at least be usable, unlike any other system which would include several unquantifiable factors into potency.
So im sorry but your idea cannot be used.
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Again, we cannot do that cus all the criteria have nothing to do with each other. You cannot compare "x minds more" with "1 layer of resistance more".YungManzi said:
The system has to be based off of 1 criteria alone.
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There are also verses where souls grow in "durability" along with the character and you need high AP + Non-Physical Interaction to destroy them, like Ergenverse.
Or weirder stuff like Emperor's Dominatio where souls are hidden inside a giant pocket dimension in the form of a palace inside a meridian on people's forehead, and you gotta break through it to reach the soul itself.
Or weirder stuff like Emperor's Dominatio where souls are hidden inside a giant pocket dimension in the form of a palace inside a meridian on people's forehead, and you gotta break through it to reach the soul itself.
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Like mind haxing 1 person with no resistance = 1 point of potency.
Mind a person with baseline resistence = 10 points of potency.
Mind haxing a person who resists two kinds of mindhax = 10 x 2 = 20
Mind haxing a person with resistance to 100 points mindhax = 1,000 points of potency.
So on and so on.
That's how I would judge it.
Edit:
They're not compatible right now, but we could easily make them compatible.
People just don't want to because of their feelings and beliefs on what mind manipulation is.
Mind a person with baseline resistence = 10 points of potency.
Mind haxing a person who resists two kinds of mindhax = 10 x 2 = 20
Mind haxing a person with resistance to 100 points mindhax = 1,000 points of potency.
So on and so on.
That's how I would judge it.
Edit:
They're not compatible right now, but we could easily make them compatible.
People just don't want to because of their feelings and beliefs on what mind manipulation is.
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If numbers of haxxed people isn't a factor of potency , how do we even scale resistance ?
in a verse where number =/= potency :
Hax-Man 1 can mind control any number of people he want
Dude A somehow resist his control
Dude A afterward get mind haxxed by another mind hax user , Hax-Man 2 .
What is the resistance of Dude A ? What is the potency of both hax-man 1&2?
Without numbers , it's far too vague to judge potency and resistance imo .
in a verse where number =/= potency :
Hax-Man 1 can mind control any number of people he want
Dude A somehow resist his control
Dude A afterward get mind haxxed by another mind hax user , Hax-Man 2 .
What is the resistance of Dude A ? What is the potency of both hax-man 1&2?
Without numbers , it's far too vague to judge potency and resistance imo .
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Then just don't judge potency or resistance unless it's overcoming a resistance.
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@InfiniteSpeed
Those are just types of soul resistances depending on the form of hax. It would be similar to souls in rakudai having actual AP, but that would only matter against attacks on the soul or soul pressure kind of abilities. The souls growing in durability does not make it somehow more resistant to getting sucked. But again, that is just resistance based on the type of hax used, let's not get into that, as it is pretty clear from a logical point of view, this is mostly about soul sucking/mind haxing kind of powers.
@Yung
We cannot asign arbitrary points to things as we see fit. There is no logical point of view to say 1 layer of mind resistance = 10 points. It is just completely arbitraty numbers we would have to be asigning with nothing to back them up from a logical perspective.
Sorry as i said above, that cannot be used.
@Naeblis
Same as how we treat other hax. Based on how many layers it bypasses.
If X has resistance and Y still mind haxes him. Then Y has mind hax that bypasses 1 layer of resistance. If Z Resists Y's mind hax, then Z has 2 layers of mind hax resistance.
Those are just types of soul resistances depending on the form of hax. It would be similar to souls in rakudai having actual AP, but that would only matter against attacks on the soul or soul pressure kind of abilities. The souls growing in durability does not make it somehow more resistant to getting sucked. But again, that is just resistance based on the type of hax used, let's not get into that, as it is pretty clear from a logical point of view, this is mostly about soul sucking/mind haxing kind of powers.
@Yung
We cannot asign arbitrary points to things as we see fit. There is no logical point of view to say 1 layer of mind resistance = 10 points. It is just completely arbitraty numbers we would have to be asigning with nothing to back them up from a logical perspective.
Sorry as i said above, that cannot be used.
@Naeblis
Same as how we treat other hax. Based on how many layers it bypasses.
If X has resistance and Y still mind haxes him. Then Y has mind hax that bypasses 1 layer of resistance. If Z Resists Y's mind hax, then Z has 2 layers of mind hax resistance.
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In Ergenverse, it does.Firephoenixearl said:
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@Earl: Yeah, like Ric said, they can resist soul suck. Which goes back to them growing in "power" as well, they can also attack and resist being moved around. I don't see how you can equalize that to controlling an X number of souls.
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@Risci and IS
That seems like a "verse specific thing" that we would have to deal with after setting a standard. So we need a standard first then argue how that verse fits the standard. We cannot make a standard based on 1 specific versewhich decides to throw logic outta the window.
@Yung
You missed the point, there is no logic in trying to relate potency in numbers and potency in resistance bypassing. Any number we would try to assing wouldn't be from logic or reason, it would just be arbitrary numbers.
That seems like a "verse specific thing" that we would have to deal with after setting a standard. So we need a standard first then argue how that verse fits the standard. We cannot make a standard based on 1 specific verse
@Yung
You missed the point, there is no logic in trying to relate potency in numbers and potency in resistance bypassing. Any number we would try to assing wouldn't be from logic or reason, it would just be arbitrary numbers.
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I wouldn't say "stronger soul, harder to manipulate" is throwing out logic, and I don't think you can really make a good general compass for abilities.
Anyways, in that case, I don't see how takin potency is a bad thing to do for potency. There are plenty exemples where it works that way, and it's an obvious show of power.
Anyways, in that case, I don't see how takin potency is a bad thing to do for potency. There are plenty exemples where it works that way, and it's an obvious show of power.
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Think of them as character in RPG. Every realm and/or stage is a level. Each level increase both resistance and attack potency. Talking about Chinamen Alliance but this may apply to other verses too. Its a progressive upgrade on both use of hax and in resisting it.
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I don't think that's true, and even if it was, an arbitrary system is better than the current system which nearly disregards all other ways of judging potency for one that is by no stretch universal among fiction.
In other words, relying on a made-up system is better than relying on a false one.
In other words, relying on a made-up system is better than relying on a false one.
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@yung
Any made up system you want to propose can just as easily be said to be false. As, in your own words it is "by no stretch universal among fiction"
Numbers equaling potency is quite a common thing in fiction, more so than resistance bypassing, or stronger souls or what have you.
The majority of fiction would treat someone standing there and mindhaxing a universe as better than mindhaxing someone who resisting baseline 1 person mindhax. This is evident even in some of the examples used to argue the contrary.
For instance, Genjutsu in Naruto, the stadium feat was supposed to be more impressive than other lesser stuff, the only time things start to change to the contrary is when stuff like Tsukuyomi is used, which is then impressive because people who would resist the former don't resist it. Numbers are again, still shown to be more impressive however when the Infinite Tsukuyomi is used, and Madara putting everyone under the genjutsu is one of the biggest feats in the verse up to that point.
The idea that the two are mutually exclusive is dumb. You can easily have both as with the current standard, if someone has mindhax that can mindhax a universe, its better than someone who has mindhax that can bypass a resistance with a potency of 1 person. Likewise, if someone has mindhax that can bypass a resistance with a potency of 20 people, it's better than mindhax that can affect 19 people.
The only proposals here that anyone would agree with are resistance chains, which are only present in very small amounts of fiction
Numbers, which is present in a significantly higher amount of fiction
Or keep both in the way we currently do
If you decided for whatever reason that we could absolutely only have one standard, the clear choice is to use the one that more fictional stories use, numbers, regardless of your feelings of "oh, but he does it casually so its not impressive and is just range" a larger part of fiction uses numbers moreso than other metrics, so it is the one that makes more sense to keep
Any made up system you want to propose can just as easily be said to be false. As, in your own words it is "by no stretch universal among fiction"
Numbers equaling potency is quite a common thing in fiction, more so than resistance bypassing, or stronger souls or what have you.
The majority of fiction would treat someone standing there and mindhaxing a universe as better than mindhaxing someone who resisting baseline 1 person mindhax. This is evident even in some of the examples used to argue the contrary.
For instance, Genjutsu in Naruto, the stadium feat was supposed to be more impressive than other lesser stuff, the only time things start to change to the contrary is when stuff like Tsukuyomi is used, which is then impressive because people who would resist the former don't resist it. Numbers are again, still shown to be more impressive however when the Infinite Tsukuyomi is used, and Madara putting everyone under the genjutsu is one of the biggest feats in the verse up to that point.
The idea that the two are mutually exclusive is dumb. You can easily have both as with the current standard, if someone has mindhax that can mindhax a universe, its better than someone who has mindhax that can bypass a resistance with a potency of 1 person. Likewise, if someone has mindhax that can bypass a resistance with a potency of 20 people, it's better than mindhax that can affect 19 people.
The only proposals here that anyone would agree with are resistance chains, which are only present in very small amounts of fiction
Numbers, which is present in a significantly higher amount of fiction
Or keep both in the way we currently do
If you decided for whatever reason that we could absolutely only have one standard, the clear choice is to use the one that more fictional stories use, numbers, regardless of your feelings of "oh, but he does it casually so its not impressive and is just range" a larger part of fiction uses numbers moreso than other metrics, so it is the one that makes more sense to keep
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Saying the majority of fiction treats something as such in of itself is a hyperbole due to how fiction in of itself is quite diverse. It's a huge assumption to make and doesn't really help the argument.
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@Yung
A made up system that has no logic behind it is not really better than a false one with logic behind it.
It's really a toss up at this point.
@Risci
Strength of a soul isn't really harder to suck though. Diamond is tougher than wood but it's not harder to move 1kg of diamond than it is to move 1kg of wood.
It is just in verse logic that says that "soul strengh" applies to all forms of soul hax.
A made up system that has no logic behind it is not really better than a false one with logic behind it.
It's really a toss up at this point.
@Risci
Strength of a soul isn't really harder to suck though. Diamond is tougher than wood but it's not harder to move 1kg of diamond than it is to move 1kg of wood.
It is just in verse logic that says that "soul strengh" applies to all forms of soul hax.
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And things like resisting destroying or warping a mind shouldn't let you resist the other, and yet that almost always happens in fiction.Firephoenixearl said:
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actually that is something I want to ask about, how would bfring somebody's mind work in this system? would BFRing a mind from their body mean that you still need to be capable of breaching the other person's mind resistance?
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Our current system doesn't disregard every other type of soul/mind manipulation potency, it just treats manipulating soul/minds as a linear scale which is why it seems so overwhelming. Introducing a made up, oversimplified scale to compensate doesn't help.
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That is just a different type of ability. Similar to how erasing someone's mind wouldn't fit in the same category as resistance to mind control.Rocker1189 said:
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We're not trying to simplify it. We're trying to make it more reasonable as right now in most cases range is being passed off as potency.GyroNutz said:
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Right, I'm just going to come out and say it. No matter what conclusion we reach here, we are not going to please everyone. Numbers as a metric is flawed, yes. Any alternative? Just as flawed, maybe even more so. There are guys out there who can atomize souls, turn souls into gold, have their souls absorbed through their blood, etc. Any form of measurable metric is thrown out the window the deeper down the rabbit hole you go. Any baseline we set is immediately screwed by some verse who's writer thought it was ok to make souls physical objects, or where one man can have dozens of souls within his body.
Imagine if you will, if we apply some sort of potency to soul manip. How would verses like Saint Seiya be treated? Literally no verse resists having their souls atomized. Is this some sort of NLF? Would someone who resists soulhax in the thousands resist that? Who knows?
What I'm getting at here is that our current system sucks. But it is a system that sucks the least. If we manage to find a system that sucks a little less, I'm for it. But right now, the conversation is shifting to a one-size-fits-all solution and I'm saying that just doesn't exist.
Imagine if you will, if we apply some sort of potency to soul manip. How would verses like Saint Seiya be treated? Literally no verse resists having their souls atomized. Is this some sort of NLF? Would someone who resists soulhax in the thousands resist that? Who knows?
What I'm getting at here is that our current system sucks. But it is a system that sucks the least. If we manage to find a system that sucks a little less, I'm for it. But right now, the conversation is shifting to a one-size-fits-all solution and I'm saying that just doesn't exist.
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Yeah i have made that before.Nepuko said:
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I was referring to YungManzi's scale which is oversimplified.Firephoenixearl said:
Also I don't think I've seen people treat range as potency. People always differentiate between, say, mindhaxing someone from another country and mindhaxing everyone in a country.
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That's not only as you said stupid because it would mean 2 verses that use 2 systems can mind hax each-other freely.
But it would be a flaw logically because it is not like they're doing the different things or achieving the same thing through different means like example Biological Mind Hax and Abstract Mind Hax. Which are effectively different. These 2 are exactly the same, just rely on different systems to measure potency.
I have a shield against 1 mindhax with a potency of one. My friend has a similar shield, but against a mindhax of two. He would still be mindhaxed by 2 mindhax, as the shield is busy dealing with the first one.
But it would be a flaw logically because it is not like they're doing the different things or achieving the same thing through different means like example Biological Mind Hax and Abstract Mind Hax. Which are effectively different. These 2 are exactly the same, just rely on different systems to measure potency.
I have a shield against 1 mindhax with a potency of one. My friend has a similar shield, but against a mindhax of two. He would still be mindhaxed by 2 mindhax, as the shield is busy dealing with the first one.
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"the stadium feat was supposed to be more impressive than other lesser stuff, the only time things start to change to the contrary is when stuff like Tsukuyomi is used," This is very wrong.
Base genjutsu from Uchiha in Naruto are better than the stadium feat, as someone like kurenai, a genjustu specialist, was caught by non-tsukuyomi genjustu.
Infinite Tsukuyomi can also be used on just one person and there's no evidence to suggest that the reflection of the moon increased its potency. We had a whole thread where it was agreed that this was the case (Although it's quite old at this point and people who weren't involved with Naruto back then wouldn't know about it)
Anyway, that's semi-derailing the core point. You're second argument is not even an equivalent comparison. Becuase one is obviously over the top and outlandish while the other is downplayed.
I don't agree that "Most fiction treat it like this, so we should treat it like this".I don't even agree with the "Most fiction treat it like this" part. I think it's something we as a verses community came up with.
In my experience, a lot of fiction deals with absolutes, not differentiating between controlling one mind vs controlling many minds. At least as far as potency goes. Does that mean we should get rid of the hierarchical system of mind hax entirely?
Base genjutsu from Uchiha in Naruto are better than the stadium feat, as someone like kurenai, a genjustu specialist, was caught by non-tsukuyomi genjustu.
Infinite Tsukuyomi can also be used on just one person and there's no evidence to suggest that the reflection of the moon increased its potency. We had a whole thread where it was agreed that this was the case (Although it's quite old at this point and people who weren't involved with Naruto back then wouldn't know about it)
Anyway, that's semi-derailing the core point. You're second argument is not even an equivalent comparison. Becuase one is obviously over the top and outlandish while the other is downplayed.
I don't agree that "Most fiction treat it like this, so we should treat it like this".I don't even agree with the "Most fiction treat it like this" part. I think it's something we as a verses community came up with.
In my experience, a lot of fiction deals with absolutes, not differentiating between controlling one mind vs controlling many minds. At least as far as potency goes. Does that mean we should get rid of the hierarchical system of mind hax entirely?
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The fact that people are still bringing up unique scenarios of soul and mind hax is a testament to how stupid this conversation is. Let me spell it out for everyone: There. Is. No. Solution. At least, not one that works for everything. Case by case is flushed down the toilet by verse equalization. Standardized metrics are flushed down the toilet by unique mechanics.
Find the lesser of two evils and be done with it.
Find the lesser of two evils and be done with it.
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problem is that it ends up giving some verses a far greater advantage over others, honestly I dont particularly mind the current system but I understand concerns people have for it.Sir Ovens said:
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I am not saying the oposite. I am specifically saying, treating potency of souls as resistance to sucking or other things like that is not "reasonable" or "logic". It is just in verse logic at most so it would just go to resistance to both via featsNepuko said:
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This would all be solved if we just stopped equalising souls. Abstract minds, too.
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- Thread starter
- #119
This thread is gonna start a Civil War owo
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The other option as I suggested it leave it to the verse, like in the case of Bleach, where apparently soul hax someone is difficult due soul haxing any single particle that compose a person, you may think is "potent" and may be within its verse, but from the point of view of another verse where soul haxing a single soul is not difficult then that doesn't mean anything. Either way, mind haxing someone in a verse where the number of soul haxed doesn't means anything, no matter what amount of target were mind haxed, it doesn't means anything (although naturally, mind haxing several targets means it bypassed the supposed resisatnce of all these people. Also, I'm talking in the most vague of the cases, where no power has an explaination).
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