A problem with how we measure Mindhax and Soulhax Potency

[AstralKing7]

Saying the majority of fiction treats something as such in of itself is a hyperbole due to how fiction in of itself is quite diverse. It's a huge assumption to make and doesn't really help the argument.

I agree with this.

That was a huge head cnaon itself because of the fact that fiction is damn near infinite

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

And a lot of it doesn't feature either.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Antonifer

That's a very easy example you used. Doesn't mean all other examples will be as easy.

 

[TFSCell]

Some men just want to watch the world burn...

Though, I half agree. Theres not a real way to measure potency of mind/soul hax. The usage of people it effects is a measurement that I can get behind. But, at the same time, soulhaxing 100 people is far less impressive than soul haxing someone with a good resistance to it imo.

 

[Antoniofer]

Welp, its up to the debaters to determinate that, personally I consider it way better that trying to standarize it using arbitrary rules related to number, range and aoe.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Oh well. I can't think of anything myself tbh. The more we try to give a solution to this the deeper into the rabit hole we go.

And i'd rather spare brain cells.

People, do what you want, just please stay reasonable. Cha!

 

[Moritzva]

This entire thread is pointless as it's trying to conclude that two methods and ways of measuring mindhax are not only mutually exclusive, but that one is objectively superior to the other, despite the fact that both are used in measuring hax, and when these two categories are pit against each other, it's up to the debaters to look into the feats and decide which one's better.

 

[Ionliosite]

I agree with Sir Ovens on this, he pretty much summed up my views.

 

[TFSCell]

While I do agree with Aogiri's proposal, I think Ovens hit the nail on the head as well.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

So what we gonna do here?

 

[YungManzi]

Nothing. People don't think anything can be done.

Edit:

Including you.

 

[Antoniofer]

I wouldnt encourage people to assume one power is more potent than the resistent of another simply cuz it have more range/aoe, I would give more priority to "layers of resistance" than number of affected.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I wouldnt encourage people to assume one power is more potent than the resistent of another simply cuz it have more range/aoe, I would give more priority to "layers of resistance" than number of affected.

Yeah but we're gonna have to settle on something otherwise its impossible.

I say we stick to "levels of resistance" in terms of potency.

 

[Moritzva]

There is nothing to settle on.

This is literally something where, if the two are being compared, we use common sense and debates to make a decision in the thread.

 

[YungManzi]

"Common sense and debates" leads to nothing changing and 'number of effected 'still being favored heavily over every other metric.

Which is how it's gonna be.

 

[Moritzva]

If someone could link me to an official rule where we say one is favored over the other, go ahead.

If not, guess what? I suppose a lot of people simply disagree with you on which method means more.

 

[YungManzi]

Well how about this. Maybe that's because of a preconcieved idea of what mind hax potency should be based on how it's been argued for literally years around here?

Like, I've never been in a mind hax focused thread and seen someone ask. "How many layers of resistance does he have to Mind Manipulation?"

 

[Firephoenixearl]

There is nothing to settle on.
This is literally something where, if the two are being compared, we use common sense and debates to make a decision in the thread.

You literally can't though. It's common sense.

As i said it's like comparing if a football player to a scientist and seeing who's more impressive. So its just gonna end up as the verse with more people on it getting the "more impressive". And with 90% of the cases ending in flame wars.

Im sorry but if you guys consider this a good result i'll have to disagree.

 

[Moritzva]

Ain't that the thing?

It's almost as if it's literally definitively impossible to quantify the difference and judge one as objectively better than the other.

You've discovered the entire meaning of versus battle debating. Subjective debating over what you believe will win in a fight, because there is no objective solution.

 

[YungManzi]

It's why I suggested an artificial point system. Almost like the new 1-A tier stuff.

 

[Antoniofer]

I would agree with its up to the debaters to define what is more potent, but our rules already state that the one power that affect more targets is the more potent, leaving little space to debate.

 

[Moritzva]

It's why I suggested an artificial point system. Almost like the new 1-A tier stuff.

As said, attempting to objectively score this system is absolutely not a good idea.

As for Antoniofer, I asked if someone could objectively point out where this is, and then the conclusion of this thread can simply be adding "and bypassing levels of resistance and similar."

 

[Firephoenixearl]

You got it backwards mate. If it were that subjective we wouldn't be adding feats, tiering, AP, speed, hax etc. It would go like "Goku beats Medaka cus i believe so".

Its subjectively debating using objective and logical facts. Not just outright having a more popular verse and arguing Babidi's mind hax is better than Nihilus cus it mind haxed someone as physically powerful as Vegeta.

Im sorry that is just not the way to go by things. If we're gonna resort to that, why even have rules and guidelines? There may never be a perfect solution but we can always try to find a better solution, not leave it in complete anarchy.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

There. Is. No. Solution.

Allow me to reiterate this part.

Try as you might, anything you say will get backlash from someone. Therefore, I propose we stick to a system lesser people oppose rather than find an end-all-be-all solution and have everyone oppose it.

 

[YungManzi]

It wouldn't be objective, it would be rough estimates based on solid reasoning. (Which would require another discussion)

Even adding such a mention on the mind hax page wouldn't change the culture of disregarding things that aren't "Number of people".

 

[Firephoenixearl]

There. Is. No. Solution.

Allow me to reiterate this part.
Try as you might, anything you say will get backlash from someone. Therefore, I propose we stick to a system lesser people oppose rather than find an end-all-be-all solution and have everyone oppose it.

I agree.

 

[YungManzi]

Why bump this thread then, Earl?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Actually. You know what?

Im down to try it. Let's leave it "to be decided during debates". Im willing to give this a time to try what it would be like.

 

[Antoniofer]

As for Antoniofer, I asked if someone could objectively point out where this is, and then the conclusion of this thread can simply be adding "and bypassing levels of resistance and similar."

In the pages Mind Manipulation and Soul Manipulation, but I think DT already added a note (you can take a look either way).

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Explain to me who on God's green earth resists their soul being turned into gold. That's literally resistence to soul transmutation which 99% of our wiki doesn't resist. Now explain to me does someone who resists soul transmutation resist soul hax from someone who bypasses soul manip resist?

 

[Antoniofer]

Tell that to tabletop rpgs, Ovens.

 

[InfiniteSped]

you really liked that gold soul example, huh

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I can bring up atomizing souls, absorbing souls through blood, splitting up your soul into smaller parts, having your soul as an energy source, digital souls, etc.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Can't that be solved by simple common sense. Resistances based on what they've been shown to resist. If you resist one form of soul manipulation, that doesn't mean you resist soul EE, soul voidification, soul absorption, soul rip, soul corruption, soul possession, etc, until you resist like any resistance feat unless the verse has a damn well good context that you do.

 

[Antoniofer]

Either way, that example is not complicated, the most general resistances are form, soul/essence and mind, so if a character resist a power that is trying to alter its soul it do not need any feat of resisting [insert extremely particular power here], if the power directly alter the soul then the character should be able to resist.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I'm for the common sense approach. The issue is how we are to enforce it.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Explain to me who on God's green earth resists their soul being turned into gold. That's literally resistence to soul transmutation which 99% of our wiki doesn't resist. Now explain to me does someone who resists soul transmutation resist soul hax from someone who bypasses soul manip resist?

This to me sounds like a case of someone literally scaling one aspect of soul hax to all other applications.

Which we 100% dont allow.

 

[AstralKing7]

We definitely don't allow that^

If someone resisted their soul being touched but doesn't resist their soul being transmuted we won't scale the potency of the resistance

 

[Firephoenixearl]

We definitely don't allow that^
If someone resisted their soul being touched but doesn't resist their soul being transmuted we won't scale the potency of the resistance

^^^

 

[YungManzi]

What about Soul Disease?