A New Type of Profile - Locations

[Armorchompy]

If the composition is very notable it can always be noted in the "notable features" section

note note noted notable noted

 

[KieranH10]

Hmmm.... I remember rejecting location profiles before. Does anyone else remember that thread? I'm not sure why anymore, though. Might have been because the profiles had weird stuff like Tiers and AP, which doesn't apply to this. Or just because we had no such structure in place at the time.

I don't recall such a thread personally. Must have been before my time here.

What's the exact difference between location and classification? Both mention "City" for example.

Location is where the Area in the profile is located on a grander scale (A building being in a city for example), Classification is what the location itself classes as.

Maybe calling P&A's "Passive Effects" or something instead would make sense? Feels weird to say that a place has an ability.

I guess this makes sense. I'm unsure what it would be changed to however, I personally feel passive effects would not work too well. As some locations can somehow use their abilities actively thanks to their creators or other.

We definitely would need rules on relevance. Being popular or story relevant for a verse should not factor into that. More so being unique. They should also have some "theme" to them. What I mean is, for example, that there is probably no point doing a location profile for the Earth as a whole given that, depending on where on earth you start, the conditions of the battlefield would vastly differ. So just the information that it's on Earth wouldn't tell you much.

Yes, I'm working on full written rules currently.

Maybe there should be something like "Composition"? How much, if any, water, sand, stone, air, wood, snow or animals are available can be relevant for many characters.

That could work, I'll see if I can get an example draft out for that. Perhaps "Materials present" would be better, as depending on the scope of the area, the composition may change (Anything with multiple Biomes for example)

Was shocked to see this was Kieran's thread given myself and Zark were discussing this over Discord in the past weeks. Perhaps this is a natural conclusion that everyone was reaching at once.

I've been planning this since last year, perhaps everyone is looking to spice up VSB a lil bit lol.

 

[DontTalkDT]

If the composition is very notable it can always be noted in the "notable features" section

note note noted notable noted

I mean "notable" depends on which characters you have fight on it. If you place Toph on a stage, then you will want to know whether earth is available. If you place Katara on a stage, plants or water are relevant. I feel like composition is always kinda notable.

And unless you do a frictionless vacuum stage (Heard physicists love that one) any place would have something to list there.

---

Btw. would we allow self-created locations as stand-ins for typical places? Things like a simple flat arena or a large body of water appear in many fictions. For such common places, we wouldn't really need more than one version listed, but I feel like giving that to whichever verse one is first created for would lead to controversy.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Most of my thoughts are already those voiced by DontalkDT and Ultima, so I agree too.

I think we should separate the effects a place have, its dominant "materials" and what's the "population" in it as 3 different statistics; while removing P&A and hazards which would be covered by the first two.

Also I def think we would need some standard battle localisation scenario, as proposed by DontalkDT. Especially the flat arena one.

 

[Armorchompy]

I like the idea, central park is honestly not perfectly fair as a default location though it's usually good enough, and having options is very good anyway

 

[Bobsican]

I would keep "Normal" locations exclusively to the Real World, even if only for the sake of keeping proper ratings for the purpose of Versus Threads, especially considering the place of SBA comes from that "verse".

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I know I'm a bit late, but certainly agree with this

 

[Ultima_Reality]

This seems like a great idea. I'm in agreement with it. Although, one thing that interests me here is the subject of profiles for sentient locations that can function as something aside from just arenas for VS Threads. To quote a part of the OP here:

There is also the point that some places are worth indexing on the Wiki, but the profiles that we allow are not really sufficient to get a good idea of such and area. Some areas are massive plot points in their stories, and are treated like an entity in their story rather than just a location. But are not technically actually characters. These would deserve profiles, but once again we cannot bring to light most relevant detail on a Character profile. Some of these would include:

I basically just skimmed through this thread's replies, so, sorry if that was already answered, but if I understand it currently, locations like these would basically have their own version of your template that accounts for things a sentient character would normally have, yeah? For instance, The Overlook Hotel has an Intelligence rating listed on its page.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Awesome and creative Idea!! I Agree!!

Demon World from DMC would also end up on this list.

 

[Elizhaa]

On DT's points on the rejection of location profiles, here was the thread.

Right now, I am uneasy because I think profiles could be really redundant.

 

[Elizhaa]

I basically just skimmed through this thread's replies, so, sorry if that was already answered, but if I understand it currently, locations like these would basically have their own version of your template that accounts for things a sentient character would normally have, yeah? For instance, The Overlook Hotel has an Intelligence rating listed on its page.

It seems to have its own version of the template but intelligence doesn't look mentioned on the template.

 

[DontTalkDT]

On DT's points on the rejection of location profiles, here was the thread.

Right now, I am uneasy because I think profiles could be really redundant.

Oh, yeah. That's the one. Thanks.
Now I remember why they were rejected. It was because they were supposed to be used to explain cosmologies, which was an awful use of them since plain text in a respect page with quotes and everything does it so much better.
If we just want to use those as arenas that doesn't really apply here, though.

This seems like a great idea. I'm in agreement with it. Although, one thing that interests me here is the subject of profiles for sentient locations that can function as something aside from just arenas for VS Threads. To quote a part of the OP here:


I basically just skimmed through this thread's replies, so, sorry if that was already answered, but if I understand it currently, locations like these would basically have their own version of your template that accounts for things a sentient character would normally have, yeah? For instance, The Overlook Hotel has an Intelligence rating listed on its page.

My personal take is that a sentient location is just a giant character and would hence get a character profile.

 

[AKM sama]

I am neutral. I don't mind the idea as long as quality control is kept in check and people don't spam a lot of similar profiles just because the locations are different or popular.

I know some locations would qualify to get a profile due to having to offer very different and unique properties that are not always known to everybody but are/can be recurrently used in matches and often have to be clarified in those vs threads (like the World of Void from DBS, Mirror Dimension from MCU, Atlantis from DCEU, Triwizard Tournament Place from Harry Potter, Western Air Temple from ATLA, Pandora from Avatar, etc.). But I don't think the number of such locations that warrant a profile would be too many.

For example, I don't think we need to make a profile for any real world location. We all know what New York is, or what the Savanna is. They offer no special property to index, and the properties they have are common knowledge. Similarly, I don't think fictional locations that are very close to any other real life location is needed either. Wakanda, Gotham, Avengers Tower, etc. don't really offer any property worth indexing and you can just specify a similar real life location (cities, big building, grasslands, etc.) in matches instead of those and nothing major will change.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It's mostly certain alternate dimensions and/or specific afterlifes that warrant profiles.

 

[KieranH10]

I basically just skimmed through this thread's replies, so, sorry if that was already answered, but if I understand it currently, locations like these would basically have their own version of your template that accounts for things a sentient character would normally have, yeah? For instance, The Overlook Hotel has an Intelligence rating listed on its page.

That would likely be covered by merging the types of Profiles. We are discussing the best plan of action regarding such a scenario, but merging seems to be the general consensus (E.G: we'd have stats and sections from multiple types of profiles, kinda like how Hell is already currently handled, as both a Civilization and a Character). There are some examples of this solution's execution in the OP if you wish to see how they went.

On DT's points on the rejection of location profiles, here was the thread.

Right now, I am uneasy because I think profiles could be really redundant.

I see, thank you for finding it. That seemed to have concluded as it did because it was basically just a replacement for the Cosmology Blogs that we currently have. As the OP of this thread states, these profiles would have a massive amount of applications in comparison to a simple cosmology. That thread also seemed to index the locations as if they were characters in a way, not really making them their own profile, but adapting them to profile types that wouldn't really work for them, and wouldn't get important information across.

I believe that these profiles can really help with a lot of factors. I personally don't believe they are redundant.

But I don't think the number of such locations that warrant a profile would be too many.

For example, I don't think we need to make a profile for any real world location. We all know what New York is, or what the Savanna is. They offer no special property to index, and the properties they have are common knowledge. Similarly, I don't think fictional locations that are very close to any other real life location is needed either. Wakanda, Gotham, Avengers Tower, etc. don't really offer any property worth indexing and you can just specify a similar real life location (cities, big building, grasslands, etc.) in matches instead of those and nothing major will change.

I personally don't agree with this to a degree. I believe that if a profile is noteworthy enough in fiction, it very likely has something interesting about it that would differ it from other profiles. (Wakanda has Guards, Vibranium, Forcefields. Gotham has Superheroes/Villains, and more. Avengers Tower has Jarvis, Iron Man Suits and the Iron Legion housed inside. Hell, even Peaches Castle from Mario has shown Paintings to other realms).

However, I do agree that there will obviously have to be limits made to what qualifies for a Profile. I'm currently working on an early draft of the rules and regulations that should come into play when making or using these profiles. But I personally believe we don't have to be as strict as you imply with them. I believe profiles for the likes of Gotham City, Avengers Tower, Wakanda, and more would be viable for creation.

 

[AKM sama]

What relevance does Wakanda having guards, Gotham having heroes/villains and Avengers Tower having Jarvis hold? Allowing interference from different characters in a vs match makes the match unusable, and hence does not serve any purpose. The wiki is for indexing characters, not every location from fiction just because they have minute differences like having guards, heroes, etc.

 

[Antvasima]

AKM makes sense to me.

 

[Damage3245]

I suppose that the draft seems quite good from what I can see:

KieranH10/ArenaTemplate

vsbattles.fandom.com

This draft looks fine to me too.

 

[Antvasima]

So I suppose that this has been accepted, but that we need to figure out a workable quality control regulations system then?

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean, just treat it the way we treat profiles. If there's nothing worth indexing, then it shouldn't be indexed.

 

[KieranH10]

What relevance does Wakanda having guards, Gotham having heroes/villains and Avengers Tower having Jarvis hold? Allowing interference from different characters in a vs match makes the match unusable, and hence does not serve any purpose. The wiki is for indexing characters, not every location from fiction just because they have minute differences like having guards, heroes, etc.

The likes of wakanda, Gotham city and more are very different settings to the everyday real world cities or countries we see. Avengers Tower has an active AI running it. They all have features which can realistically differentiate them from one another.

Yes, if a skyscraper or city visually massively resembles and is clearly no different from a real life equivalent (such as Marvels New York City for example) we aren't going to have a new York City profile for every version of the city in fiction, because they would all be the same with minute differences. But we can make profiles for the buildings or such that differentiate them, as they would be different enough from everything else to be valid enough for a profile.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we need to be stricter with this than with profile pages, as the locations genuinely need to be relevant and not give undue advantages, whereas character profile pages generally do not focus on only the notable ones.

 

[Lou_change]

With all due respect I already asked that question a similar question

So currently are areas unrelated to the characters fighting allowed.
I agree with this by the way but I have a question do the inhabitants just make sure that they don't get involved, do they act like they would act normally in this situation for them.

And got the answer

That is a good question, this could be another option for battle rules.


Now that I think of it, it may be worth creating a sort of "Location Rules" page for editing, creating, and using Locations in battles.

Also

I mean both lines of logic are correct for example having battles in the vacuum of space would screw over a ton of characters but having powers like elemental manipulations that requires the elements there to work, underground movement, stealth Mastery, surface scaling, camouflage, acrobatics, construction all are very weak to certain locations, but the thing is Standard Battle Assumptions already approves of battle locations other than central park if it makes battles more fair perhaps threads that use locations should have to go through match up addition requests before being allowed to be added or a thread just for that.

 

[AKM sama]

The likes of wakanda, Gotham city and more are very different settings to the everyday real world cities or countries we see. Avengers Tower has an active AI running it. They all have features which can realistically differentiate them from one another.

Besides the differences you mentioned earlier (heroes/villains) Gotham is not different enough and doesn't have any intrinsic property that differentiates it from any real world location. Wakanda has a forcefield that could be used to restrict characters from getting away, but they can be easily disabled from the inside which renders it ineffective. Avengers Tower has Jarvis, but Jarvis cannot be included in a battle because it is very much like a character and his inclusion will be treated as outside interference.

So I don't really see any worth in creating such location profiles and I am against the idea of having lots of them just because they are locations in a fictional verse and differ a bit. We are not here to index locations. Only those locations should be allowed that actually make for some unique battle grounds due to their properties, and I agree with them only because they make for some interesting match conditions. But I don't think a whole lot of energy should be spent on this matter, as vs matches are not a primary concern. So quality control in this regard is necessary.

 

[KieranH10]

I don't really see any worth in creating such location profiles and I am against the idea of having lots of them just because they are locations in a fictional verse and differ a bit. We are not here to index locations. Only those locations should be allowed that actually make for some unique battle grounds due to their properties, and I agree with them only because they make for some interesting match conditions. But I don't think a whole lot of energy should be spent on this matter, as vs matches are not a primary concern. So quality control in this regard is necessary.

You seem to be contradicting yourself there slightly. You mention that you only wish for Locations that can give a battle a unique spin to be indexed. But then state that battles are not the main concern for this subject?

We are absolutely here primarily for indexing in my opinion. As has been said many times in the past, VSB is an indexing wiki, it is just also helpful for creating battles.

You're also mentioning that only areas that create a unique battle ground for actual battles would be allowed. There are a couple problems with this:

1. You act as if Fun and Games battle do not happen at all.
2. In that same message you mention that many of the unique properties of those locations would not be allowed in real battles.

Lastly, I still agree there should be quality control for the profiles. But I also still believe that you are being too strict in this regard, it's not like we disallow profiles just because they're similar to some real world equivalent, or strictly because of their noteworthy properties.

Disallowing Locations would follow similar rules to regular profiles, yes. No random unidentified building should not be allowed a profile, just as no extra should be allowed a character profile. That is obvious. But disallowing the likes of Gotham City despite it being a defined setting with many appearances in comics, it's importance in such, and acting like it is comparable to a regular real world city while it has superheroes flying around, secret lairs all over it, and more, seems much too strict in my opinion.

 

[AKM sama]

You act as if Fun and Games battle do not happen at all.

I don't think we need to make extra location profiles for the purposes of fun and games battles. You can actually make your own setting in that thread alone if you want to. I don't see why the wiki needs to feature location profiles for that purpose.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I will say this, locations meant to give certain verse specific characters powers than they do not have anywhere else are the ultimate reasons to support locations. But places like Gotham don't make Batman any more overpowered than he would be in New York City. Also, Fun and Games boards literally allow us to ignore the tiering system outright, merge Joke Battles wiki, FC/OC Wiki, and VSBW wiki into one wiki for character access. So honestly, making profiles specific for Fun and Games is literally pointless.

 

[KieranH10]

I don't think we need to make extra location profiles for the purposes of fun and games battles. You can actually make your own setting in that thread alone if you want to. I don't see why the wiki needs to feature location profiles for that purpose.

They would not only be for Fun and Games battles, that was an example.

I will say this, locations meant to give certain verse specific characters powers than they do not have anywhere else are the ultimate reasons to support locations. But places like Gotham don't make Batman any more overpowered than he would be in New York City. Also, Fun and Games boards literally allow us to ignore the tiering system outright, merge Joke Battles wiki, FC/OC Wiki, and VSBW wiki into one wiki for character access. So honestly, making profiles specific for Fun and Games is literally pointless.

Locations have so many more uses than just that one, if that were the only reason that these were being made, then the original thread would have likely gone through.

I never said that we would only make battles for the Fun and Games board.
You are both focusing on one of many counter points here, and misinterpreting the quote.

 

[AKM sama]

In that same message you mention that many of the unique properties of those locations would not be allowed in real battles.

Also to clarify, the locations we were just talking about, didn't have any unique property intrinsic to that particular location. The thing you're referring to as a "property", is just presence of outside characters (guards, heroes, villains, Jarvis) that are obviously not allowed in any valid match.

 

[Promestein]

I think we should limit the interference of other people and characters; as AKM says, this is separate from the intrinsic effects and properties of different locations.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Promestein and AKM.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I know we rejected this in the past.

Can someone quickly go over with me what has changed since then?

 

[Bobsican]

I know we rejected this in the past.

Can someone quickly go over with me what has changed since then?

All of this

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

I think Locations can work, while things like Gotham may be too generic to count, there are some locations with unique and distinct effects (such as Master Fortress from Smash Bros, Triwizard Tournament from Harry Potter, or Ghostly Galaxy from Mario Galaxy) which should give themselves a profile

 

[KieranH10]

Bump.

 

[Arcker123]

Would things like alternate dimensions qualify?

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

why is wakanda being brought into this? Its a civilization not a location

 

[KieranH10]

It is also a country.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

It is also a country.

still counts for a civilization profile not a location one

 

[KieranH10]

It counts as both, the area houses the civilization.