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A New Type of Profile - Locations

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KieranH10

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What relevance does Wakanda having guards, Gotham having heroes/villains and Avengers Tower having Jarvis hold? Allowing interference from different characters in a vs match makes the match unusable, and hence does not serve any purpose. The wiki is for indexing characters, not every location from fiction just because they have minute differences like having guards, heroes, etc.
The likes of wakanda, Gotham city and more are very different settings to the everyday real world cities or countries we see. Avengers Tower has an active AI running it. They all have features which can realistically differentiate them from one another.

Yes, if a skyscraper or city visually massively resembles and is clearly no different from a real life equivalent (such as Marvels New York City for example) we aren't going to have a new York City profile for every version of the city in fiction, because they would all be the same with minute differences. But we can make profiles for the buildings or such that differentiate them, as they would be different enough from everything else to be valid enough for a profile.
 

Antvasima

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I think that we need to be stricter with this than with profile pages, as the locations genuinely need to be relevant and not give undue advantages, whereas character profile pages generally do not focus on only the notable ones.
 
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With all due respect I already asked that question a similar question
So currently are areas unrelated to the characters fighting allowed.
I agree with this by the way but I have a question do the inhabitants just make sure that they don't get involved, do they act like they would act normally in this situation for them.
And got the answer
That is a good question, this could be another option for battle rules.


Now that I think of it, it may be worth creating a sort of "Location Rules" page for editing, creating, and using Locations in battles.
Also
I mean both lines of logic are correct for example having battles in the vacuum of space would screw over a ton of characters but having powers like elemental manipulations that requires the elements there to work, underground movement, stealth Mastery, surface scaling, camouflage, acrobatics, construction all are very weak to certain locations, but the thing is Standard Battle Assumptions already approves of battle locations other than central park if it makes battles more fair perhaps threads that use locations should have to go through match up addition requests before being allowed to be added or a thread just for that.
 

AKM sama

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The likes of wakanda, Gotham city and more are very different settings to the everyday real world cities or countries we see. Avengers Tower has an active AI running it. They all have features which can realistically differentiate them from one another.
Besides the differences you mentioned earlier (heroes/villains) Gotham is not different enough and doesn't have any intrinsic property that differentiates it from any real world location. Wakanda has a forcefield that could be used to restrict characters from getting away, but they can be easily disabled from the inside which renders it ineffective. Avengers Tower has Jarvis, but Jarvis cannot be included in a battle because it is very much like a character and his inclusion will be treated as outside interference.

So I don't really see any worth in creating such location profiles and I am against the idea of having lots of them just because they are locations in a fictional verse and differ a bit. We are not here to index locations. Only those locations should be allowed that actually make for some unique battle grounds due to their properties, and I agree with them only because they make for some interesting match conditions. But I don't think a whole lot of energy should be spent on this matter, as vs matches are not a primary concern. So quality control in this regard is necessary.
 

KieranH10

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I don't really see any worth in creating such location profiles and I am against the idea of having lots of them just because they are locations in a fictional verse and differ a bit. We are not here to index locations. Only those locations should be allowed that actually make for some unique battle grounds due to their properties, and I agree with them only because they make for some interesting match conditions. But I don't think a whole lot of energy should be spent on this matter, as vs matches are not a primary concern. So quality control in this regard is necessary.
You seem to be contradicting yourself there slightly. You mention that you only wish for Locations that can give a battle a unique spin to be indexed. But then state that battles are not the main concern for this subject?

We are absolutely here primarily for indexing in my opinion. As has been said many times in the past, VSB is an indexing wiki, it is just also helpful for creating battles.

You're also mentioning that only areas that create a unique battle ground for actual battles would be allowed. There are a couple problems with this:
  1. You act as if Fun and Games battle do not happen at all.
  2. In that same message you mention that many of the unique properties of those locations would not be allowed in real battles.
Lastly, I still agree there should be quality control for the profiles. But I also still believe that you are being too strict in this regard, it's not like we disallow profiles just because they're similar to some real world equivalent, or strictly because of their noteworthy properties.

Disallowing Locations would follow similar rules to regular profiles, yes. No random unidentified building should not be allowed a profile, just as no extra should be allowed a character profile. That is obvious. But disallowing the likes of Gotham City despite it being a defined setting with many appearances in comics, it's importance in such, and acting like it is comparable to a regular real world city while it has superheroes flying around, secret lairs all over it, and more, seems much too strict in my opinion.
 

AKM sama

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You act as if Fun and Games battle do not happen at all.
I don't think we need to make extra location profiles for the purposes of fun and games battles. You can actually make your own setting in that thread alone if you want to. I don't see why the wiki needs to feature location profiles for that purpose.
 

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I will say this, locations meant to give certain verse specific characters powers than they do not have anywhere else are the ultimate reasons to support locations. But places like Gotham don't make Batman any more overpowered than he would be in New York City. Also, Fun and Games boards literally allow us to ignore the tiering system outright, merge Joke Battles wiki, FC/OC Wiki, and VSBW wiki into one wiki for character access. So honestly, making profiles specific for Fun and Games is literally pointless.
 

KieranH10

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I don't think we need to make extra location profiles for the purposes of fun and games battles. You can actually make your own setting in that thread alone if you want to. I don't see why the wiki needs to feature location profiles for that purpose.
They would not only be for Fun and Games battles, that was an example.
I will say this, locations meant to give certain verse specific characters powers than they do not have anywhere else are the ultimate reasons to support locations. But places like Gotham don't make Batman any more overpowered than he would be in New York City. Also, Fun and Games boards literally allow us to ignore the tiering system outright, merge Joke Battles wiki, FC/OC Wiki, and VSBW wiki into one wiki for character access. So honestly, making profiles specific for Fun and Games is literally pointless.
Locations have so many more uses than just that one, if that were the only reason that these were being made, then the original thread would have likely gone through.

I never said that we would only make battles for the Fun and Games board.
You are both focusing on one of many counter points here, and misinterpreting the quote.
 

AKM sama

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In that same message you mention that many of the unique properties of those locations would not be allowed in real battles.
Also to clarify, the locations we were just talking about, didn't have any unique property intrinsic to that particular location. The thing you're referring to as a "property", is just presence of outside characters (guards, heroes, villains, Jarvis) that are obviously not allowed in any valid match.
 
I think Locations can work, while things like Gotham may be too generic to count, there are some locations with unique and distinct effects (such as Master Fortress from Smash Bros, Triwizard Tournament from Harry Potter, or Ghostly Galaxy from Mario Galaxy) which should give themselves a profile
 
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Antvasima

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Have we decided on any rules for what kind of locations pages that can be created yet?
 

KieranH10

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I still personally believe that Locations for the likes of Gotham City and similarly notable areas should be more than valid for profiles. The discussion is still on this subject.
 
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To help Gotham City's case. mind control and other abilities exist that manipulate people, it's not really outside help if they don't have a side it's just an hazard, it also has the bat cave.
 
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Just a question, this can be deleted if it's not allowed.

Would places like Kurouzu-cho (from Junji Ito's Uzumaki) and Ramiris' Labyrinth be allowed if this new type of profile be allowed? Among other similar places.
Kurouzu-cho is where the Spiral/Uzumaki course resides, although this could be invalid as a profile for the Uzumaki curse could be made instead of the town where the curse resides.
Ramiris' Labyrinth is a very unique place, similar to a dungeon game but is an actual alternate pocket dimension, with one of its special features being that Ramiris' Servants like Beretta are granted Immortality Type 3/4 within it, as well as those who possess Revival Bracelets.

Though I suppose the problem would be how they might be difficult as a location for versus threads, though they might be good for fun and games.
 

KieranH10

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The general consensus seems to be mostly in agreement with this I believe, some are neutral, but I don't recall any full disagreements with this.

At the moment, we're generally talking about any changes to the profile template that would be needed, and more importantly, what would qualify for a profile. Of which I'm still under the impression that the likes of Gotham City and Avengers Tower would be more than valid for profiles, but I believe AKM still believes they are not.

I'm also still working on a draft for the general rules and regulations page that many believe would be needed, but cannot complete that until we've decided on such rules and regulations, which would need the current discussion to be concluded.
 

AKM sama

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I've already provided my views on the topic and I maintain my stance. And I think Prom, Medeus and others were also in agreement with that. I don't have anything else to add.
 

KieranH10

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Promestein seemed to only agree that native characters would simply not be allowed in battles if I'm understanding correctly.

Dark also only stated that making profiles only for fun & games battles would be pointless. Which I'm not arguing, I'm arguing that the locations are fine for profiles in general, obviously characters inside those profiles would not be allowed in regular battles since that would be classed under outside help.

With that though, just because we would not be allowed to make battles involving native characters, does not mean that those characters do not exist in that area, or that the area has nothing notable or worthy of indexing.
 
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I think this could be maybe ok.
Assuming it's actually super notable and unique with a variety of innate qualities that make it different from places we have irl to warrant the shit.

Off the top of my head, a place like the Morioh Alley (ghost alley, has a constant swarm of unknown entities trying to trick you. If one looks behind them they get dragged into the void and torn apart), or like, the titular Abyss from something like Made in Abyss (fuck ton of weird wildlife and flora, along with a wide variety of hax and effects that can effect whoever delves into into it if they try and go back up, including at its worst, the loss of humanity or even death) or like Castlevania itself (assuming we don't treat that as a character).

But something like, mountain#9000, cityscape#69 and so on ain't worth it, because we'd end up with hundreds of them, even if one or two has a very slight difference here and there, it'd end up redundant very quickly, meaning, as badass as Gotham is, something like that is a bit useless.

But that's just my take, in that we should be conservative and only do location profiles for extremely unique locales.
 

KieranH10

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If that is what others believe, I suppose that it should be that way.

We should wait to see what others think though. To be sure that this is the general consensus.
 
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Promestein seemed to only agree that native characters would simply not be allowed in battles if I'm understanding correctly.

Dark also only stated that making profiles only for fun & games battles would be pointless. Which I'm not arguing, I'm arguing that the locations are fine for profiles in general, obviously characters inside those profiles would not be allowed in regular battles since that would be classed under outside help.

With that though, just because we would not be allowed to make battles involving native characters, does not mean that those characters do not exist in that area, or that the area has nothing notable or worthy of indexing.
Wait, because of this, shouldn't the place of SBA (New York City), be assumed to be simply empty in terms of inhabitants beyond the match-up participants?
 

KieranH10

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Wait, because of this, shouldn't the place of SBA (New York City), be assumed to be simply empty in terms of inhabitants beyond the match-up participants?
Yes, ignoring characters in a location would mean SBA would make New York completely empty.
 

Antvasima

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I've already provided my views on the topic and I maintain my stance. And I think Prom, Medeus and others were also in agreement with that. I don't have anything else to add.
Can somebody remind me about those viewpoints please?
 

KieranH10

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For example, I don't think we need to make a profile for any real world location. We all know what New York is, or what the Savanna is. They offer no special property to index, and the properties they have are common knowledge. Similarly, I don't think fictional locations that are very close to any other real life location is needed either. Wakanda, Gotham, Avengers Tower, etc. don't really offer any property worth indexing and you can just specify a similar real life location (cities, big building, grasslands, etc.) in matches instead of those and nothing major will change.
I think we should limit the interference of other people and characters; as AKM says, this is separate from the intrinsic effects and properties of different locations.
I will say this, locations meant to give certain verse specific characters powers than they do not have anywhere else are the ultimate reasons to support locations. But places like Gotham don't make Batman any more overpowered than he would be in New York City. Also, Fun and Games boards literally allow us to ignore the tiering system outright, merge Joke Battles wiki, FC/OC Wiki, and VSBW wiki into one wiki for character access. So honestly, making profiles specific for Fun and Games is literally pointless.
I believe that these are the current stances.
 
I dont see why anyone has an issue like this. I 100% Agree with the idea of a profile like this. Having it be easily available where X fighter can be or where they might get a homefield advantage might lead to some matchups that might've been much harder for people to imagine.

However I can also see some issues with this in the term of how some scaling could be seen is "oh no". Like Dimentio has Dimension D, which would "multiply" the power of Dimentio, Mario, and Mario's partner by 256. Not sure how this would affect scaling, and this is most-likely just 1 of many areas in many verses that are like this.
 

Antvasima

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So is somebody willing to write some regulations/instructions based on what AKM, Promestein and Medeus said above?
 

KieranH10

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They don't seem to be referring to the same outcome in those posts if I'm understanding correctly.
 

Antvasima

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They seem to cover different relevant aspects of what we need to take into account.

If somebody writes a draft, I can try to clean up the language flow afterwards.
 

Promestein

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I can write up my own take on the template.

I also don't think we should just throw out environmental features if they may affect a match. It's a part of the environment characters should adapt to accommodate, and it makes debates more interesting. That's just my take. 'Environmental features' are not outside help. Other entities interfering are outside help.
 
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I agree with this, we should had this kind of location long time ago

However something like a generic cities/landscape should'nt be included as pages
 

KieranH10

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I can write up my own take on the template.

I also don't think we should just throw out environmental features if they may affect a match. It's a part of the environment characters should adapt to accommodate, and it makes debates more interesting. That's just my take. 'Environmental features' are not outside help. Other entities interfering are outside help.
The Template is done, we simply need some standards written out.

I don't mind helping out since I've done little parts of a draft, but may not have a lot of time in the next few days or so, since I'm busy with some personal stuff.
 
I can write up my own take on the template.

I also don't think we should just throw out environmental features if they may affect a match. It's a part of the environment characters should adapt to accommodate, and it makes debates more interesting. That's just my take. 'Environmental features' are not outside help. Other entities interfering are outside help.
I agree with that to a degree. If I had two people fighting in an environment where "X" was frequent, with "X" being things such as unstable terrain, horrible weather, lack of breathable substances, etc. Then I think those should be allowed. However,
Just a note that I think that being surrounded by civilians that need to be rescued would count as outside help.
Cases like This I dont think should be taken into account as 'environmental features' when it comes to what would happen in a battle. Otherwise Party 1 could just take a hostage and party 2 would be like "aw man I cant hurt my peoples" and then we get a sweet incon or win for Party 1 due to making Party 2 unable to hurt him, which is weird to think about in that sense.


Or we could just ban civilians from existing as the standard unless OP of that match says otherwise.
 
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Location: Central Park, New York City. The location can be left during the course of battle. If extreme advantages are generated via this location to one side, a balanced alternative should be discussed in the thread.
 
Location: Central Park, New York City. The location can be left during the course of battle. If extreme advantages are generated via this location to one side, a balanced alternative should be discussed in the thread.
That seems fine, but you also gotta think that some media have created slighty alternate version of a location, For example, the amount of different "Peach's castle" we've seen is an unhealthy amount.
 

Antvasima

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Thank you for helping out Promestein.

As I mentioned earlier, I think that locations with inhabitants that can cause serious handicaps and distractions should be avoided though.
 

KieranH10

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I'll just put it here.
snip
I have added that to the Sandbox.
As I mentioned earlier, I think that locations with inhabitants that can cause serious handicaps and distractions should be avoided though.
I think the consensus is if the location has special features that make it notable enough, but also has characters housed in it, then it should be made. But if the locations only noteworthy feature is said characters, then it would warrant a profile.
 

Antvasima

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Again, hostages and bystanders do not create a fair fight for our purposes.
 
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Location: Central Park, New York City. The location can be left during the course of battle. If extreme advantages are generated via this location to one side, a balanced alternative should be discussed in the thread.
This logic should be assumed for all locations including ones that cause hostage negotiations.
 

Antvasima

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If a hero constantly has to save the surrounding bystanders from getting killed, it would severely limit his or her chances to win in a fair fight without plot armor.
 
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Okay there are at least two examples of how get around that listed and that takes away from characters the rely on people to manipulate or exploit.
 

KieranH10

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If a hero constantly has to save the surrounding bystanders from getting killed, it would severely limit his or her chances to win in a fair fight without plot armor.
It would not be used in battles though. Any battle where bystanders or inhabitants were involved would be fun and games.
 

Colonel_Krukov

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I'm not 100% sure on what's still allowed, but from what I get the from the intention is to use iconic locations from various media and add them as location profiles, as long as they have enough environmental features that make it unique/interesting. Is this right?
 

KieranH10

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That seems to be the case at the moment. I still personally believe that the standard should be a little more lenient, but I'm willing to compromise, so that is how it is currently.
 

Antvasima

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I'm not 100% sure on what's still allowed, but from what I get the from the intention is to use iconic locations from various media and add them as location profiles, as long as they have enough environmental features that make it unique/interesting. Is this right?
That is correct, yes.

The key issue seems to be if we should allow them to be populated with innocent bystanders or not.
 

KieranH10

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The key issue seems to be if we should allow them to be populated with innocent bystanders or not.
I don't believe that is the main issue personally, as that was only recently brought up, and has already been answered to my knowledge.

Any inhabitants should be noted on the profile, for indexing's sake, but will not influence battles unless explicitly stated, in which the battle would become fun and games, as it would involve outside help.
 

Colonel_Krukov

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I think it should it should at least be noted on the profile, at least for accuracy sake. Whether or not it should included on a vs-match, I personally think the standard assumption is that they should be included, since that it's more realistic and it's a core part of the character to defend people. If people want a fight without the limitation or it makes the battle unfair, it's easily avoided by bloodlusting the character or stating the location is void of people. I guess if it counts as outside help, just make the match under Fun & Games, that works too I guess.
 
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Inhabitants are only an issue if the location is gonna be used as a stage for versus battles.

It seems that some location profiles doesn't have to be a battleground as long as they are unique locations and/or with unique properties, so they won't have that problem.
 

Antvasima

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Okay. We need to make very clear in our rules that the location should not create an unfair advantage in any case.
 
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Okay. We need to make very clear in our rules that the location should not create an unfair advantage in any case.
Well, that's quite variable, some characters rely entirely on being in a certain place for their tier and several capabilities, and in others the stage may as well just kill both participants before either can do anything to the other. I think it would be best to just keep the condition for the purpose of vs threads that the place in question shouldn't lead into a one-sided argument nor the place itself being the "winner", but rather a usable win condition at most.
 

Antvasima

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I don't think so. As long as it is mentioned that civilians that interfere in any way in a fair fight are disallowed, the instructions page can probably be created now.
 
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I don't think so. As long as it is mentioned that civilians that interfere in any way in a fair fight are disallowed, the instructions page can probably be created now.
i think that detail would go better in the Versus Thread Rules, if it wasn't there already, given that this affects any sort of location, even the one in SBA.
 

Antvasima

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I suppose that seems reasonable.

Is somebody willing to write a draft text for this?
 
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I suppose that seems reasonable.

Is somebody willing to write a draft text for this?
Let's see... huh, "outside help" has never been mentioned at all within the Versus Thread Rules, it seems it was an unwritten sort of rule for all of these years.
Anyways, as that's the case, it'll have to be a bit more explicit than what I expected, so...
"Only the selected participants for a match-up are to be involved in the versus thread, meaning that any other animated beings that would be in the selected place for the battle won't be around, and this also translates into neither participant being able to call for help unless it's in a combat-applicable manner, such as what's covered as a summon or familiar"
Note that this still leaves open a potential issue where the place in question relies on its inhabitants (or someone in particular) to be around in the first place.
 

Antvasima

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Would this version be acceptable?

"Only the selected participants for a versus thread are allowed to be involved in the match-up. Meaning that any other beings that would normally be in the selected location for the battle should not be considered to be present, neither as bystanders that need to be rescued or as being able to provide outside assistance."
 

KieranH10

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Only the selected participants for a versus thread are allowed to be involved in the match-up. Meaning that any other beings that would normally be in the selected location for the battle should not be considered to be present, neither as bystanders that need to be rescued or as being able to provide outside assistance.
This seems fine to me personally.
 
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While the wording looks far better, what about the potential issue where the place in question relies on its inhabitants (or someone in particular) to be around in the first place? Do we just assume the place remains as "usual" even if the one that would be there to sustain it isn't there, and so it would normally collapse otherwise?
 

KieranH10

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While the wording looks far better, what about the potential issue where the place in question relies on its inhabitants (or someone in particular) to be around in the first place? Do we just assume the place remains as "usual" even if the one that would be there to sustain it isn't there, and so it would normally collapse otherwise?
In a case like this, I don't believe the person sustaining the location would be considered outside help, as long as it's specified that they aren't taking part in the battle, then it should be assumed that they aren't allowed to intervene directly.
 

Armorchompy

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Why would we just negate a fuckton of powers? That's literally against the rules too "It is not fine to restrict abilities in a versus matchup, implicitly or expressly. Matches that are arranged this way should not be added to the character profiles, as they don't involve their full potential, and are only intended for casual entertainment."
 

Antvasima

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I am not sure how we should handle characters like Killgrave. I suppose that we will have to skip matches involving them for the sake of making most of them work instead.
 
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No we shouldn't just effectively match ban or delete characters and powers should a fight include such characters happen it will be part of the exception rather than the rule again I feel we should have a thread just to add matches using location profiles and exceptions to the rule and I would be willing to help with that thread.
 
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Why would we just negate a fuckton of powers? That's literally against the rules too "It is not fine to restrict abilities in a versus matchup, implicitly or expressly. Matches that are arranged this way should not be added to the character profiles, as they don't involve their full potential, and are only intended for casual entertainment."
The powers aren't restricted, this is no different from someone with Telekinesis not being able to use it in an empty place out of there being nothing to manipulate with it in the first place, a character not being able to use Earth Manipulation in a place that has no earth to begin with, or how some characters have some powers that work in more specific circumstances but can't be verse equalized.

By this logic we may as well ban match-ups where a "immunity" to Soul Manip out of lacking a soul to start with is relevant.
 
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Antvasima

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I suppose that something like this might be added to the rules text, yes:

"If extreme advantages to one side are generated via a location, a balanced alternative should be discussed in the relevant versus thread. This can include bystanders that need to be rescued or are able to provide outside assistance, as well as poisons or diseases that are present in the area."
 
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In a case like this, I don't believe the person sustaining the location would be considered outside help, as long as it's specified that they aren't taking part in the battle, then it should be assumed that they aren't allowed to intervene directly.
Would either participant be allowed to be assumed to potentially indirectly or directly threaten this person? And would we assume it does nothing in regards of this?
 

Antvasima

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I suppose that something like this might be added to the rules text, yes:

"If extreme advantages to one side are generated via a location, a balanced alternative should be discussed in the relevant versus thread. This can include bystanders that need to be rescued or are able to provide outside assistance, as well as poisons or diseases that are present in the area."
Would this be a better alternative to my previous suggested rules text?
 
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