"A multiverse of adventures" A Sonic the Hedgehog Cosmology page creation + upgrade CRT: part 1 "The Cosmology"

[omegabronic]

Hello all, for a while the Sonic cosmology was very simple and straight forward to understand, but as time went on more and more upgrades, additions and extra information about the cosmology was accepted here, it is kind of a mess to look through all kind of profiles to have understand what is accepted......so i decided to follow the steps of the GoW and Ben 10 supporters, meaning:

Cosmology page creation​

here is the sandbox of it, it's purpose not only to put all relevant aspects of the cosmology for scaling purposes, but to also document all small and big cosmology aspects of the franchise, basically serving as a good overview of everything this franchise has shown cosmology-wise in these past 33 years, not in full detail for the extremely length ones, only a brief summary to get the point across, for further details the explanation blogs for the more complicated aspects are linked, some additions are given as well tho

Universe upgrade​

Thanks to Sonic Prime, we have an even better indication that the Sonic universe is far bigger than one might initially see

2-C​

In Sonic Prime we are introduced to the Shatterverse, a varied of individual Universes that were created when the Paradox Prism destroyed the Prime World, with its lesser pieces becoming the Shatterverse, each world in there having their own universe and time, it is constantly said that these Shatterspaces only came to from the Prime World being shattered and destroyed, aka, being the smaller pieces of the whole that is the Prime Universe with the term "splinter" being used to describe the event, with the word directly meaning to break something bigger into smaller pieces, additionally the Shatterverse is said to not be part of the outer multiverse and the Prime World is not said to have been altered, it is said to have ceased to exist being literally "broken", therefore the totality of it would scale to the base of the prime world, with this also being supported by the other dimensions that we have indications are also inside of it, like the Modern Cyberspaces

Maybe Infinite Universe.....?​

So, this one i am not completely sure about, the space between the Shatterspaces is called "The Void", which is said to have an "Eternity of darkness" which.......i am not sure if it means that it is infinite or not, since eternity doesn't mean infinite spatially.....but the way it is used here is clearly in mention of it spatially, maybe in the sense of "Darkness that goes on forever" which.......i am not sure if it is enough for it to be infinite or not, will let the staff decide on this one, for support, we also have the parallel reality of the Arabian Nights, which also contains infinite spaces within it for more support

White Space nonexistensiness(is that a real word?)​

Basically, White Space is non existent, everyone knows that, the page is detailing how much that extents given the Time Eater's erasure range of how much it affected, given all the elements in the Sonic Cosmology, these would be the aspects and nature it and the chars erased by it would receive, for a more in detail explanation, check this blog, this is the summary of it, with some added aspects(1 and 3) that will be explained as well:

Non Existent Physiology (Nature type 2(due to it being less existent than an already non existent timeline in Crisis City and Stardust Speedway Bad Future); Aspects type 1 "Spiritual" (Due to it erasing stuff like the Ancient Cyberspace that stores the souls(which is what happens when Sonic and co "free" the Koko, their souls are uploaded to Cyberspace as said by Sage) of the Ancients and the Night Palace of the Arabian Nights that is connected with the "Spiritual World" of the Astral Plane, this is more of a support point mind you) type 2 and 3 "Conceptual" & "Mental Nonexistence" (Due to it erasing such conceptual places as Maginaryworld and its several dreams, which are currently accepted as concepts, while some dreams are also accepted as part of the minds of the one who dream them and Ancient Cyberspace which also holds the ancients' memories, this is also a support point for the first mind you) type 4 "Informational" (Due to the Cyberspaces which contain such nature as accepted in previous threads) & type 5 "Other: Space-Time, History, Text and Plot" (Due to the Time Eater erasing all of history and space time through all of the multiverse, thus also including places such as the Storybook Worlds, which are fundamentally made of Texts and Manuscripts that are also its story and plotlines)

1-C Upgrade for Maginaryworld and Hypertime, in that order​

a recent thread upgraded some realms to Low 1-C while also making them be considered "dreams", as such some upgrades result from it

from the FAQ:

"It is, however, possible to at least achieve above the baseline 2-A power by upscaling from other characters who've performed 2-A feats or of the feats themselves, rather than by affecting 2-A structures containing other 2-A structures. However, if "bigger" is indicated to mean a size difference that makes the structure quantitative superior to a 2-A structure the structure qualifies for Low 1-C unless the fiction specifies otherwise."

"For example: A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions; i.e A cosmology where the four-dimensional spacetime continuum is just the infinitesimal surface of a 5-dimensional object, and etc."

Magynaryworld's 4 dimension space seems to follow the above as it sees all the dreams as flat images projections from its perspective, which would include the recently accepted Low 1-C dreams of Cyberspace and the Egg Field, with it also being so big as to contain all the numerous variations of these that would exist due to the multiverse and the inhabitants that these dreams are from(The Ancients and Dr. Eggman) the number as such being possibly infinite, so an possible infinity of 5D/Low 1-C realms are reduced to literaly flat images in comparison to the infinity of the 4 dimension space, making them all infinitesimal in comparison, this alone would be pretty good evidence, but there is more that supports this proposal

again from the FAQ:

"To elaborate, a structure larger than 2-A meets the requirements for qualitative superiority over them if it either explicitly mentions an uncountably infinite number of universes or has portrayals/statements of being bigger in size than 2-A structures to the point that even infinite multipliers on top of the size of that structure are of no relevance to it. Multiversal structures past Low 2-C frequently have a distance of unknown length along a 5th dimensional axis separating them. That isn't automatically Low 1-C, as for Low 1-C the distance must be known to be of non-insignificant size."

in this case such a thing happens with Maginaryworld's 4th dimension space, but for Low 1-C realms instead of Low 2-C ones, as such it would naturally make the 4th dimension space a 6th dimensional axis, and since we already accept it as infinite, it would qualify as "non-insignificant" in size, thus making it up into Low 1-C/6-D. the 6-D hypertime becomes 7-D by extension, as it would supersede any cosmological structure (Maginaryworld included)

Special Thanks​

several people helped with this project, which was in the works for several months now, those being @Fireld @ShakeResounding @GlaceonGamez471 @Eseseso @Maverick_Zero_X , a big thanks to them

this discussion would cover ONLY the cosmology, the after effects and upgrades following it will be contained in a follow up thread to this, so do not, and i repeat DO NOT derail this thread with any scaling talk or "will X thing get X hax from this?" as this is to be discussed afterwards in the follow up thread

with all out of the way....discuss

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

 

[Eseseso]

...Yes.

 

[Starbrand_Fan]

Ok but does everyone scale to i-/shot

Jokes aside, this looks good

 

[AStrangeverse]

Neat

 

[Jinsye]

Semantics diff but don't use the term qualitative superiority for this anymore, that's generally reserved for 1-A jumps.

Regardless, is that really it? I most certainly don't think this is enough for a dimensional jump. "Projections on a screen" doesn't scream Low 1-C when we hardly know the nature of these projections at least with the given context. Are they really literally infinitesimal? Is there literally any other information we get on this besides the one statement?

 

[omegabronic]

Semantics diff but don't use the term qualitative superiority for this anymore, that's generally reserved for 1-A jumps.

oh, right

Regardless, is that really it? I most certainly don't think this is enough for a dimensional jump.

that part is a support point btw, the main one is the same argument that made it accepted as 5D before, a space of such dimensionality with a confirmed, non insignificant size

"Projections on a screen" doesn't scream Low 1-C when we hardly know the nature of these projections at least with the given context.

by occam's razor we would assume the simpler, straightforward answer, that being that they are, like anything projected on a screen, flat 2D, as that is how an image is projected on a screen

Are they really literally infinitesimal? Is there literally any other information we get on this besides the one statement?

trivializing them as 2D images would make them infinitesimal in comparison, but i mean, we also have the "Infinite" statement already accepted for 4DS, with it housing all the dreams, thus each dream is, individually, an infinitesimal part of the whole that is 4DS

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Universe upgrade​

Thanks to Sonic Prime, we have an even better indication that the Sonic universe is far bigger than one might initially see

2-C​

In Sonic Prime we are introduced to the Shatterverse, a varied of individual Universes that were created when the Paradox Prism destroyed the Prime World, with its lesser pieces becoming the Shatterverse, each world in there having their own universe and time, it is constantly said that these Shatterspaces only came to from the Prime World being shattered and destroyed, aka, being the smaller pieces of the whole that is the Prime Universe with the term "splinter" being used to describe the event, with the word directly meaning to break something bigger into smaller pieces, additionally the Shatterverse is said to not be part of the outer multiverse and the Prime World is not said to have been altered, it is said to have ceased to exist being literally "broken", therefore the totality of it would scale to the base of the prime world, with this also being supported by the other dimensions that we have indications are also inside of it, like the Modern Cyberspaces

Maybe Infinite Universe.....?​

So, this one i am not completely sure about, the space between the Shatterspaces is called "The Void", which is said to have an "Eternity of darkness" which.......i am not sure if it means that it is infinite or not, since eternity doesn't mean infinite spatially.....but the way it is used here is clearly in mention of it spatially, maybe in the sense of "Darkness that goes on forever" which.......i am not sure if it is enough for it to be infinite or not, will let the staff decide on this one, for support, we also have the parallel reality of the Arabian Nights, which also contains infinite spaces within it for more support

Easily agree with 2-C, and I'm very tempted to agree with the infinite sized universe as well. Mostly because the modern cyberspaces must logically be inside the main universe. Arguing that via Black Doom teleporting in it when it's established that a Chaos Emerald is required for inter-dimensional travel is genius. This obviously carries many power-scalling implications (which I've been thinking about for a long time) that I would love to discuss with you once this is over. Quick question first for anyone who might know: Does a dimension being "parrallel" to another automatically grant both the exact same size and scope? That seems to be how we do things, but I want to be sure before I fully agree with infinite universes.

1-C Upgrade for Maginaryworld and Hypertime, in that order​

a recent thread upgraded some realms to Low 1-C while also making them be considered "dreams", as such some upgrades result from it

from the FAQ:

"It is, however, possible to at least achieve above the baseline 2-A power by upscaling from other characters who've performed 2-A feats or of the feats themselves, rather than by affecting 2-A structures containing other 2-A structures. However, if "bigger" is indicated to mean a size difference that makes the structure qualitatively superior to a 2-A structure the structure qualifies for Low 1-C unless the fiction specifies otherwise."

"For example: A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions; i.e A cosmology where the four-dimensional spacetime continuum is just the infinitesimal surface of a 5-dimensional object, and etc."

Magynaryworld's 4 dimension space seems to follow the above as it sees all the dreams as flat images projections from its perspective, which would include the recently accepted Low 1-C dreams of Cyberspace and the Egg Field, with it also being so big as to contain all the numerous variations of these that would exist due to the multiverse and the inhabitants that these dreams are from(The Ancients and Dr. Eggman) the number as such being possibly infinite, so an possible infinity of 5D/Low 1-C realms are reduced to literaly flat images in comparison to the infinity of the 4 dimension space, making them all infinitesimal in comparison, this alone would be pretty good evidence, but there is more that supports this proposal

again from the FAQ:

"To elaborate, a structure larger than 2-A meets the requirements for qualitative superiority over them if it either explicitly mentions an uncountably infinite number of universes or has portrayals/statements of being bigger in size than 2-A structures to the point that even infinite multipliers on top of the size of that structure are of no relevance to it. Multiversal structures past Low 2-C frequently have a distance of unknown length along a 5th dimensional axis separating them. That isn't automatically Low 1-C, as for Low 1-C the distance must be known to be of non-insignificant size."

in this case such a thing happens with Maginaryworld's 4th dimension space, but for Low 1-C realms instead of Low 2-C ones, as such it would naturally make the 4th dimension space a 6th dimensional axis, and since we already accept it as infinite, it would qualify as "non-insignificant" in size, thus making it up into Low 1-C/6-D. the 6-D hypertime becomes 7-D by extension, as it would supersede any cosmological structure (Maginaryworld included)

My biggest issue is here:

"(...)so an possible infinity of 5D/Low 1-C realms are reduced to literaly flat images in comparison to the infinity of the 4 dimension space, making them all infinitesimal in comparison"

Nothing indicates that the infinite size of the 4D space is relative to the scope of all the flat dream worlds inside it. It could/would already be infinite by virtue of containing countless/infinite dream worlds in the first place, which is what the statement that describes it as infinite was most likely referring to.

This, by itself, definitely isn't enough to make me disagree with this upgrade. However, I can tell you from experience that it isn't gonna fly here. I'm not gonna explain why in here since that would most likely cause a derail, but unless the tiering system revision changed people's perspectives, this upgrade is dead in the water, regardless or whether I agree with it or not.

I agree with the rest, including the stuff that would go on White Space's profile.

 

[omegabronic]

Easily agree with 2-C, and I'm very tempted to agree with the infinite sized universe as well. Mostly because the modern cyberspaces must logically be inside the main universe. Arguing that via Black Doom teleporting in it when it's established that a Chaos Emerald is required for inter-dimensional travel is genius.

This obviously carries many power-scalling implications (which I've been thinking about for a long time) that I would love to discuss with you once this is over

i will happily await for that time to come

Quick question first for anyone who might know: Does a dimension being "parrallel" to another automatically grant both the exact same size and scope? That seems to be how we do things, but I want to be sure before I fully agree with infinite universes.

iirc, yes

• If there is shown to be a collection of multiple alternate worlds/dimensions that are either stated to be parallel and/or there are visual depictions resembling each of those worlds/dimensions to be metaphorically similar to each other (Such as bubbles or other structures that appear similar in size), and most importantly, at least one of those individual worlds/dimensions has shown enough evidence to consider them a Universe level+ sized spacetime continuum, then the conclusion is to consider all of those individual worlds/dimensions universes and that the entire collection is a multiverse.

but i don't remember if that is only for Low 2-C or for other aspects........huh, will wait for more input on this

My biggest issue is here:

Nothing indicates that the infinite size of the 4D space is relative to the scope of all the flat dream worlds inside it. It could/would already be infinite by virtue of containing countless/infinite dream worlds in the first place, which is what the statement that describes it as infinite was most likely referring to.

This, by itself, definitely isn't enough to make me disagree with this upgrade. However, I can tell you from experience that it isn't gonna fly here. I'm not gonna explain why in here since that would most likely cause a derail, but unless the tiering system revision changed people's perspectives, this upgrade is dead in the water, regardless or whether I agree with it or not.

well, it being infinite is to prove that it is not of insignificant size, thus since it would be 6D by default of being the space between 5D structures as i detailed here:

again from the FAQ:

"To elaborate, a structure larger than 2-A meets the requirements for qualitative superiority over them if it either explicitly mentions an uncountably infinite number of universes or has portrayals/statements of being bigger in size than 2-A structures to the point that even infinite multipliers on top of the size of that structure are of no relevance to it. Multiversal structures past Low 2-C frequently have a distance of unknown length along a 5th dimensional axis separating them. That isn't automatically Low 1-C, as for Low 1-C the distance must be known to be of non-insignificant size."

in this case such a thing happens with Maginaryworld's 4th dimension space, but for Low 1-C realms instead of Low 2-C ones, as such it would naturally make the 4th dimension space a 6th dimensional axis, and since we already accept it as infinite, it would qualify as "non-insignificant" in size, thus making it up into Low 1-C/6-D. the 6-D hypertime becomes 7-D by extension, as it would supersede any cosmological structure (Maginaryworld included)

we already accept it as Low 1-C/5D due to that logic, so in this case, the same would follow since it is the same logic

the "flat/2D images" work even without the infinite statement, it is more or less a strong support point for the latter than anything else, altho i think either could work by themselves

I agree with the rest, including the stuff that would go on White Space's profile.

thank you for your participation

 

[Sparkive]

About the Sonic Runners Universe, we haven't finished discussing it yet (because no one cares about Runner)
As an aside, although I like the theory of a separate universe, I have to doubt the fact that it is like this only because Runner is inconsistent with the main games, or that it is not canon in one direction (all the logic of another dimension could easily be only canon for Runners, and for the main games it does not exist)
Also, if you consider it canon, you forgot that Runners has a crossover with Puyo Puyo, which has its own universe according to its own event


I also have doubts about Nightmare zone, the level is a Zone DLC from Sonic Lost World, which also includes the Zelda level and the Yoshi Wolly world level,
Surely we should count it as canon? That level is at the same level as Sonic in Hyrule or in a world of wool, the only difference is that being from Sega itself, the dlc could appear in the PC version as part of the base game (while the other 2 obviously stayed on the Wii U... until the ESHOP closed)

It's all I can half doubt, to be fair, whether they stay or go does not basically affect cosmology at all.