A Major Concern with current Reality-Fiction Transcendence page:

[Ss3micah]

The current tier list has it that in order to be Low 1-C in AP, you must be capable of affecting/creating/destroying an entire 5D space. Affecting any finite structure isn't enough.

Nice self Inserts that are NOT on the in the current description but you pushed to further your agenda but Whatevs.

Low 1-C: Low Complex Multiverse level
Characters or objects that can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.) In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 5 to R ^ 6)

1. "In order to" and "you must be"? It Cleary state characters or Objects that CAN affect, create and/or destroy the entire of spaces.
There is a clear difference in context here:
What the Tiering Page is saying is that at this Tier (Low 1-C) characters CAN do X, Y and Z
It did not say Characters MUST be able capable doing X, Y and Z to be in Tier (Low 1-C)

2. You noticed that "whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model". Guess what sirrrr? A 5-D to any higher Dimensional is infinitely greater than the size of a universal model. A 5-D Pebble will always be infinitely greater in size than a 4-D Timeline because of the difference in dimensional size.

The Real layer is considered to be infinitely larger than the fictional layer. Higher dimensional objects are not considered infinitely larger than lower dimensional objects. Lower dimensional objects, and beings can exist alongside and interact with Higher dimensional objects and beings.

Yeah, other than pointing out the complete contradiction that the Real Layer should be considered INFINITELY larger than the Fictional Layer but that Higher Dimensional objects (so 5-D, 11-D, 13-D, etc) objects not infinitely larger than 3-D or 4-D objects? I dont have to say this but I will..... NO ONE WILL ACCEPT THIS

Also Lower Dimensional Objects existing alongside and interacting with Higher Dimensional Objects and Beings? Thats VERY SUBJECTIVE to in-verse feats and context as mechanics can vary from verse to verse..... But to make it a default standard based on no objective proof that lower dimensional beings and objects can interact and exist with higher dimensional beings and objects? Automatic No

The purpose of this thread is to call out that the current R>F transcendence page doesn't align with the current tier page.

All that's really needed here is a description fix... Nth more

Either, characters need to be able to affect the entire space, once R>F has been confirmed, or the tier page needs to be changed to reflect the current R>F standards.

Latter

1. Assuming that fictional layer is infinitely smaller than the real layer, doesn't make sense and is arbitrary. Unless the story itself dictates these things, we should not apply it to all fiction. Fictional things do not have size to compare. Saying something real is infinitely bigger than something imaginary is like saying an Apple is infinitely more apple than an orange is an apple. It's just silly talk.

You should be honest and say it doesnt make sense to you because it makes sense to everyone else that have disagreed with this thread which is 95% of people and staff included. Your argument essentially means that real layers are finitely bigger than fictional layers. There is a finite gap than separates a Real Layer from Fictional Layer. Thats not a qualify difference sir..... thats quantity. That would give Fictional Layer characters to become real layer characters through quantity amps rather than qualify amps. That completely ignores and destroys the Ontological Difference that has been established for R>F

Anyways no doubt this will be rejected
Also your example makes no sense AT ALL

Here is an that makes more sense:
An Apple thats Real vs an Apple thats a Drawing
One has all the texture, the taste, the smell and qualities of an Apple
And the other is a Drawing that has no qualities of an apple

2. There are tons of examples of Lower Dimensional beings interacting with Higher Dimensional beings. These beings are Higher Dimensional because they can affect and entire Higher Dimensional space. When compared to a being that is simply Low 1-C for existing in a higher plane, these Higher Dimensional beings are infinitely stronger. So when lower dimensional beings interact with Higher Dimensional beings, these Higher Dimensional beings do not view the lower dimensional beings as fiction, but just as real as them. The only difference between them is that the HD beings are much stronger.

So basically your argument here is that........... Lower Dimensional Beings that exist as Fiction should NEVER EVER be capable of reaching Higher Dimensional Beings that exists as Real. And if teh context of the verse describes that is EXACTLY ehat is going on here, then we should ignore it and say that the fictional world is no longer fictional but just another world as real as the higher dimensional world......?

Yeah......another sad point that everyone will disagree with

Also that notion that characters that gain Low 1-C because they destroyed an entire 5-D space being INFINITELY stronger than characters who gain Low 1-C because they can exist in ontological higher planes. Highly subjective to context, interpretation and feats. NEVER something we assume be default

Another Disagree

So I asked the question: In VS Battles, we pit two characters against each other. If we pit a Low 1-C via R>F (let's call them Character A for ease) against a 2-A character (Character B), under our standards Character A will see Character B as fiction. However, in Character B's story, Low 1-C characters interact with them and see them as real beings (weaker but still real). Why should Character A view Character B as fiction, when in character B's story, an infinitely more powerful Low 1-C sees them as real? We would be giving Character A an unearned ability and handicapping Character B.

Yes
Because Verse Mechanics
Verse Mechanics are Ignored here

Thats like saying every Dragon Ball Character should get Acausality because of how time works in DB and going back in time to kill Goku A wouldnt affect goku A but kill Goku B.

Or like saying because in Jojo, only stand users can see other stands then no character outside of Jojo should be able to see stands.

Or that likes saying because in Bleach, all things have souls then at should apply in a Versus Debate

Any mechanics that does not depends on the characters but depends on how a verse functions will be completely ignored. VBW Standards takes precedence here, we cant accommodate for the verse mechanics of every verse. If in characters B story he is a fictional character but a higher dimensional (real) character saw them as just as real as they are then unless their is any context further than that.... Character B will be fictional in comparison to any higher dimensional being. Verse Mechanics be damned

3. People have mentioned that characters that gain higher tiers view R>F, would lose that tier if they are brought into the lower layers. Characters who are Low 1-C via affecting an entire 5D space, would be Low 1-C, in any layer they are in. And without R>F, a Low 1-C character could be be indistinguishable from a lower a tier. We can get things such as, "yes this character's best feat is destroying a tree, but that tree was infinitely larger than an infinite multiverse because they viewed this world like it was fiction".

Ontological Difference again....
Due to R>F, they would have that Tier once they in a higher layer of existence and can affect higher dimensional objects infinitely beyond the capacity of an infinite multiverse multiplied by infinite over and over. They would lose that Tier however once they are no longer in that Higher Dimensional Plane because they no longer possess a Quality of existence infinitely greater than 4-D

Also
yes this character's best feat is destroying a tree, but that tree was infinitely larger than an infinite multiverse because they viewed this world like it was fiction

Objectively speaking..... Yes. The tree is a 5-D Object. Any 5-D Object by inception and nature is INFINITELY MORE LARGER AND COMPLEX than a 4-D OBJECT no matter how many their are. An Infinite Number of 4-D Timelines multiplied by infinity over and over again wont compare to a 5-D object.

If this goes through, then R>F will have some stricter standards and different guidelines. If it doesn't the, the tier page needs to changed to reflect this.

I can tell you right now that little to none of this will be accepted
The most that will be done is description change and thats it

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Nice self Inserts that are NOT on the in the current description but you pushed to further your agenda but Whatevs.

Low 1-C: Low Complex Multiverse level
Characters or objects that can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.) In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 5 to R ^ 6)

1. "In order to" and "you must be"? It Cleary state characters or Objects that CAN affect, create and/or destroy the entire of spaces.
There is a clear difference in context here:
What the Tiering Page is saying is that at this Tier (Low 1-C) characters CAN do X, Y and Z
It did not say Characters MUST be able capable doing X, Y and Z to be in Tier (Low 1-C)

How many times do I have to explain the English language? "That can" refers to capability.

People that can walk refers to people who have the capablity of walking.
People that can swim, refers to people who have the capability of swimming.
People that can drive, refers to the people who have the capability of driving.

This is literally just a non-argument.

Any mechanics that does not depends on the characters but depends on how a verse functions will be completely ignored. VBW Standards takes precedence here, we cant accommodate for the verse mechanics of every verse. If in characters B story he is a fictional character but a higher dimensional (real) character saw them as just as real as they are then unless their is any context further than that.... Character B will be fictional in comparison to any higher dimensional being. Verse Mechanics be damned

The fact that you wrote this out without seeing the glaring contradiction is funny.

If verse specific mechanics should be ignored, then you can ignore the verse mechanic of a character viewing a world as fictional and have them be held to the current tier standard that they must be a character that can affect/destroy/create an entire 5D space.

 

[Ss3micah]

How many times do I have to explain the English language? "That can" refers to capability.

People that can walk refers to people who have the capablity of walking.
People that can swim, refers to people who have the capability of swimming.
People that can drive, refers to the people who have the capability of driving.

Yeah, my point exactly

THAT CAN means that any character in Low 1-C, for whatever reason they are their, CAN affect 5-D spaces. As it is now, if a character is Low 1-C they can affect a 5-D even if they themselves have not shown the capacity to do so. Whether that needs to be changed or not will depend on others but as far as I am seeing.... It ain't gonna change.

The fact that you wrote this out without seeing the glaring contradiction is funny.

If verse specific mechanics should be ignored, then you can ignore the verse mechanic of a character viewing a world as fictional and have them be held to the current tier standard that theyeah

Except guess what.....
That Mechanic "EPIC DRUM ROLL" is recognized and accepted by our staff and apart of our standards as an ontological difference. Plus Reality > Fiction is not a SUPER specific mechanic to one or two verses but dozens, hundreds, thousands of pieces of fiction uses R > F mechanics and more often than not....the fictional world is completely and infinitely inferior to the real world. That standard is recognized by the wiki and combined with the principle of ontology, it has been accepted into our standards

Try as you want or how you will but you ain't changing the standards
The most you can ask for is a description fix and thats it

 

[Vietthai96]

I love all the nitpicking sematic argument here, and all the false equipvalent that have nothing to do with the main topic of the thread

1. Assuming that fictional layer is infinitely smaller than the real layer, doesn't make sense and is arbitrary. Unless the story itself dictates these things, we should not apply it to all fiction. Fictional things do not have size to compare. Saying something real is infinitely bigger than something imaginary is like saying an Apple is infinitely more apple than an orange is an apple. It's just silly talk.

Fiction do not have size, but you forget something, reality have size, what we do here is compare the size of reality to fiction, which is, when something see a realm/world as fiction, which mean said realm/world is totally insignificant to the the thing that see them as fiction, yet said realm/world is real to the people who exist in them, thus sais realm/world is their own reality still have their own size, so now compare both of them, the thing have its size and the realm/world have their size, yet said thing see said realm world as fiction = said thing superior to said realm/world, that all, unless fiction verses go out of their way to contradict themselves, we simply do not give said contradiction higher tier, that all. Again we still evaluate case by case depend on context, you acting like we slap tier 1 to every verse that somehow have A see B as fiction/imaginary without any context

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I love all the nitpicking sematic argument here, and all the false equipvalent that have nothing to do with the main topic of the thread

Fiction do not have size, but you forget something, reality have size, what we do here is compare the size of reality to fiction, which is, when something see a realm/world as fiction, which mean said realm/world is totally insignificant to the the thing that see them as fiction, yet said realm/world is real to the people who exist in them, thus sais realm/world is their own reality still have their own size, so now compare both of them, the thing have its size and the realm/world have their size, yet said thing see said realm world as fiction = said thing superior to said realm/world, that all, unless fiction verses go out of their way to contradict themselves, we simply do not give said contradiction higher tier, that all. Again we still evaluate case by case depend on context, you acting like we slap tier 1 to every verse that somehow have A see B as fiction/imaginary without any context

Let me ask you a question, if Character A attacks Character B, and character A does insignificant damage to Character B, does that warrant Character A to granted a higher tier?

 

[Vietthai96]

Let me ask you a question, if Character A attacks Character B, and character A does insignificant damage to Character B, does that warrant Character A to granted a higher tier?

Wtf man, another false equivalent again??. You always bring up very incorrect comparison to the situation.

Anyway to answer your question, yes it is, if the context provide sufficient evidences

 

[Ss3micah]

Let me ask you a question, if Character A attacks Character B, and character A does insignificant damage to Character B, does that warrant Character A to granted a higher tier?

VERY SUBJECTIVE
Heavily depends on context and what Tiers we are specifically talking about
But yes in some cases and no in others

Again, it heavily depends on context

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Wtf man, another false equivalent again??. You always bring up very incorrect comparison to the situation.

Anyway to answer your question, yes it is, if the context provide sufficient evidences

VERY SUBJECTIVE
Heavily depends on context and what Tiers we are specifically talking about
But yes in some cases and no in others

Again, it heavily depends on context

And I would say no. It's too subjective and immeasurable. A tier change should be measured in something concrete and measurable.

 

[Ss3micah]

A tier change should be measured in something concrete and measurable.

Yeah
That sure is everything from Tier 11 up to Tier 3
Maybe you didnt get the memo but once you reach Tier 2 and onwards, measurable calculations can no longer be used when determining AP

And I would say no. It's too subjective and immeasurable.

Thats why we have CONTEXT sirrrrr. CONTEXT IS KEY

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Maybe you didnt get the memo but once you reach Tier 2 and onwards, measurable calculations can no longer be used when determining AP

We still use measurable standards.

How many universes you can affect, destroy, create, at once is measurable? That's tier 2.

Tier 1? How many dimensions does the space you can destroy, create/effect have.

Measurable.

 

[Ss3micah]

We still use measurable standards.

How many universes you can affect, destroy, create, at once is measurable? That's tier 2.

Tier 1? How many dimensions does the space you can destroy, create/effect have.

Measurable.

I have a retort for this but............. Im not gonna bother since it seems we are drifting from the main point here
Anyways whatever issues you have with the standards are your issues alone and as made evident by 95% of people here there not gonna change

Just ask for the Tiering page to mention that affecting 5-D structures and objects and R>F stuff to be included and let us call that a rap

 

[Maxeez]

The current tier list has it that in order to be Low 1-C in AP, you must be capable of affecting/creating/destroying an entire 5D space. Affecting any finite structure isn't enough.

However, under R>F, a character is able to get Low 1-C for simply existing in a layer where they view the lower layer as fictional. No feats of affecting/creating/destroying an entire 5D space, or even doing so to a finite object. They get the tier for simply just viewing that lower layer and it's characters as fiction. (granted there's no contradiction etc.)

It should be noticed, that while R>F is equated to 5D, they are treated differently. The Real layer is considered to be infinitely larger than the fictional layer. Higher dimensional objects are not considered infinitely larger than lower dimensional objects. Lower dimensional objects, and beings can exist alongside and interact with Higher dimensional objects and beings.

The purpose of this thread is to call out that the current R>F transcendence page doesn't align with the current tier page. Either, characters need to be able to affect the entire space, once R>F has been confirmed, or the tier page needs to be changed to reflect the current R>F standards.

Some arguments that I am making:

1. Assuming that fictional layer is infinitely smaller than the real layer, doesn't make sense and is arbitrary. Unless the story itself dictates these things, we should not apply it to all fiction. Fictional things do not have size to compare. Saying something real is infinitely bigger than something imaginary is like saying an Apple is infinitely more apple than an orange is an apple. It's just silly talk.

2. There are tons of examples of Lower Dimensional beings interacting with Higher Dimensional beings. These beings are Higher Dimensional because they can affect and entire Higher Dimensional space. When compared to a being that is simply Low 1-C for existing in a higher plane, these Higher Dimensional beings are infinitely stronger. So when lower dimensional beings interact with Higher Dimensional beings, these Higher Dimensional beings do not view the lower dimensional beings as fiction, but just as real as them. The only difference between them is that the HD beings are much stronger.

So I asked the question: In VS Battles, we pit two characters against each other. If we pit a Low 1-C via R>F (let's call them Character A for ease) against a 2-A character (Character B), under our standards Character A will see Character B as fiction. However, in Character B's story, Low 1-C characters interact with them and see them as real beings (weaker but still real). Why should Character A view Character B as fiction, when in character B's story, an infinitely more powerful Low 1-C sees them as real? We would be giving Character A an unearned ability and handicapping Character B.

3. People have mentioned that characters that gain higher tiers view R>F, would lose that tier if they are brought into the lower layers. Characters who are Low 1-C via affecting an entire 5D space, would be Low 1-C, in any layer they are in. And without R>F, a Low 1-C character could be be indistinguishable from a lower a tier. We can get things such as, "yes this character's best feat is destroying a tree, but that tree was infinitely larger than an infinite multiverse because they viewed this world like it was fiction".

And that's that in the nutshell.

If this goes through, then R>F will have some stricter standards and different guidelines. If it doesn't the, the tier page needs to changed to reflect this.

There was no need to type all of that man. What I'm saying is that the current system treats Low 1-C as a tier which is reached when a character performs a 5D or 6D AP feat no matter the size of the affected structure, that's basically it.
By this logic, any 5-6D character (through r>f) would have 5-6D AP (like us 3D humans have 3D AP) and thus is Low 1-C (which encompasses all the possible sizes the "structure" can possibly have).

"The entirety of space" doesn't necessarily mean it has to be infinite or "universal sized" to be Low 1-C, though it could be better worded I'll give you that.

See the definition :
"Low 1-C: Low Complex Multiverse level :
Characters or objects that can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.) In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 5 to R ^ 6)"

As it says, the structure only needs to be be a space of 5 or 6 different coordinates, could be any object corresponding to this standard.

 

[Vasco]

Lower tier characters in DC interact with Low 1-C characters above all the time. They don't see them as fictional. They're just weaker.

Via boom tubes and also Higher dimensional beings like myxptlk and other Imps lower their dimensionality to enter lower worlds.

They cannot face them on a normal day due to their size already being bigger than their realm of existence.

 

[Vasco]

Not all interactions are through boomtubes and there are more stronger characters than Mxyz.

If you read his story well, you'd know he can lower his dimensionality level especially to 3-D and once even became 2-D.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

There was no need to type all of that man. What I'm saying is that the current system treats Low 1-C as a tier which is reached when a character performs a 5D or 6D AP feat no matter the size of the affected structure, that's basically it.
By this logic, any 5-6D character (through r>f) would have 5-6D AP (like us 3D humans have 3D AP) and thus is Low 1-C (which encompasses all the possible sizes the "structure" can possibly have).

"The entirety of space" doesn't necessarily mean it has to be infinite or "universal sized" to be Low 1-C, though it could be better worded I'll give you that.

See the definition :
"Low 1-C: Low Complex Multiverse level :
Characters or objects that can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.) In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 5 to R ^ 6)"

As it says, the structure only needs to be be a space of 5 or 6 different coordinates, could be any object corresponding to this standard.

You really ignoring the “the entirety of spaces” huh?

 

[Maxeez]

You really ignoring the “the entirety of spaces” huh?

« The entirety of space » doesn’t even specify the size in the first place. Why are you assuming it has to be infinite or something ? The definition itself says that it can « be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces », why would it be anything more than just 5-6D constructs ?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

« The entirety of space » doesn’t even specify the size in the first place. Why are you assuming it has to be infinite or something ? The definition itself says that it can « be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces », why would it be anything more than just 5-6D constructs ?

A real coordinate space is infinite.

 

[Maxeez]

A real coordinate space is infinite.

Mind sourcing this ? Because in that case I would understand the concern, otherwise I'll just disagree like everyone else.
Because, as of now, this isn't what the extradimensional category suggests :

"Tier 1: Extradimensional
Characters or objects that can significantly affect spaces of qualitatively greater sizes than ordinary universal models and spaces [...]"

It just needs to be qualitatively greater than lower dimensional spaces in nature, which can be fulfilled by any 5D structure ; whatever its size is.
The reason for that is because it would get messy if we had to divide tiers between multiple extradimensional AP characters (in our case, Low 1-C) solely based on the affected structure's size ; which, as I said earlier, can be studied case by case.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Mind sourcing this ? Because in that case I would understand the concern, otherwise I'll just disagree like everyone else.
Because, as of now, this isn't what the extradimensional category suggests :

"Tier 1: Extradimensional
Characters or objects that can significantly affect spaces of qualitatively greater sizes than ordinary universal models and spaces [...]"

Real coordinate space - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Real in reference to Real numbers, which is an infinite set.

 

[Maxeez]

Yeah anyways that is most likely a wording problem more than anything else. The rest of the tiering and FAQ makes it clear that only affecting 5D constructs is enough to get the tier. I don't have much else to add.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Yeah anyways that is most likely a wording problem more than anything else. The rest of the tiering and FAQ makes it clear that only affecting 5D constructs is enough to get the tier. I don't have much else to add.

No it is not rewording issue. It is fine as it is.

 

[Maxeez]

No it is not rewording issue. It is fine as it is.

What I meant by problem is that he just misunderstood what the definition means, we don't have to change it.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Alright

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Does this thread have any kind of point, or can I ask for it to be closed because it's just a misunderstanding?

 

[Deagonx]

Personally, I do not generally agree with tiering R>F transcendence in almost any case. Anyone is capable of creating a fiction.

 

[Jinsye]

If you want to debunk the notion of R>F in general then you should probably make it it's own thread. Since this thread isn't about that (and it's more dealing on if R>F grants tier 1 by default without the destruction of these higher spaces)

 

[Deagonx]

It's not so much a matter of "debunking" rather a different perspective about the concept itself, however, point taken.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Does this thread have any kind of point, or can I ask for it to be closed because it's just a misunderstanding?

Bump.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Anyone is capable of creating a fiction.

Not sure how does this refute the concept right now.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

This is ridiculous i'm going to ask staff to close this.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

This is ridiculous i'm going to ask staff to close this.

Have you done so? If nobody replies within 24 hours, I'll request a lock myself.