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A Major Concern with current Reality-Fiction Transcendence page:

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godofice said:
I’m 99% sure when lower tier characters interact with low 1-C characters they’re either enlarged to exist in that plane or shrunk like Darkseid does because he doesn’t like using avatars I’ll try to find info on Psylocke and the white hot room I’ve never heard of those 2 things in dc before
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They are in marvel.
 
I'll consider myself neutral on this matter. While I can see where others are coming from, at the same time, it is important to note that there aren't many fictional works that care about this whole 10-dimensions nonsense, or dimensionality in general for that matter. Heck, VBW is literally the only site that bothers with it whereas everywhere else is like "just go Universe>Multiverse>Omniverse like everyone else does, dummehs!" Would it make sense to give any level of dimensionality to R>F transcendents when fiction doesn't care about dimensionality? This place literally made STTGL, an entity with a literal measured size, 11-D in size when the creators likely didn't give a hoot about dimensionality.
 
Lormac_CC said:
You can place on neutral on the whole issue. This issue can easily be solved by rewording of FAQ
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It can’t because the tier says Low 1-C must be able to destroy, create, effect entire space.

while reality-fiction transcendence, says you just have to view a world as fiction.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Stop using real life as examples. Worlds don't exist inside subatomic particles, and you do not transcend anything. This is just making stuff up and applying it to fiction.
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You can't just dismiss analogies like that. Also worlds can theoretically exist inside particles. Anyway, the fact is that being able to interact with lower worlds isn't a requirement for transcendence.
Iamunanimousinthat said:
A fictional world can't be wrong. There is nothing false or wrong about a story where two worlds see each other as fiction.
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A fictional world can be wrong based on our standards of coherency. If an author first says that character A is stronger than character B and then later in the story says character B is stronger than character A then the author and story are wrong.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
It can’t because the tier says Low 1-C must be able to destroy, create, effect entire space.

while reality-fiction transcendence, says you just have to view a world as fiction.
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So R/F falls under composite Hierarchy and according to the wiki, the difference between layers in composite Hierarchy are higher than that of physical dimensions. So the idea that a higher layer entitie, who views the lower layer as fiction can't be classified as low 1-C because the series didn't show him destroying a 5D space makes no sense
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
It can’t because the tier says Low 1-C must be able to destroy, create, effect entire space.

while reality-fiction transcendence, says you just have to view a world as fiction.
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It says IT CAN. How many times are you going to intentionally write it false?
 
Flashlight237 said:
I'll consider myself neutral on this matter. While I can see where others are coming from, at the same time, it is important to note that there aren't many fictional works that care about this whole 10-dimensions nonsense, or dimensionality in general for that matter. Heck, VBW is literally the only site that bothers with it whereas everywhere else is like "just go Universe>Multiverse>Omniverse like everyone else does, dummehs!" Would it make sense to give any level of dimensionality to R>F transcendents when fiction doesn't care about dimensionality? This place literally made STTGL, an entity with a literal measured size, 11-D in size when the creators likely didn't give a hoot about dimensionality.
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I perceive that you in question are presenting a problem without proposing an alternative solution. This raises the question of the effectiveness of such an approach.

While you may be valid to express dissatisfaction with a particular system, it is essential to also offer constructive suggestions for improvement. Additionally, the assertion that fictions do not take into account dimensionality is problematic, as a significant proportion of notable works of fiction do in fact incorporate this concept.

Furthermore, it should be noted that your concerns are not directly related to the topic at hand, and it would be prudent to refrain from deviating from the central issue.
 
ImmortalDread said:
It says IT CAN. How many times are you going to intentionally write it false?
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Characters or objects that can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.) In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 5 to R ^ 6)

I need you to understand that in the English language when the word, "that" comes before "can" it means capability not optional. For example

"Employees can access the roof and enjoy the company pool in their free time." Means that any employee has the option of accessing the roof.

"Employees that can access the roof and enjoy the company pool in their free time" isn't even a complete sentence and refers to employees who have the capability rather than giving all employees the option.

I don't know how many times I have to debunk or ignore this false argument.
 
Lormac_CC said:
So R/F falls under composite Hierarchy and according to the wiki, the difference between layers in composite Hierarchy are higher than that of physical dimensions. So the idea that a higher layer entitie, who views the lower layer as fiction can't be classified as low 1-C because the series didn't show him destroying a 5D space makes no sense
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Yet, the R/F transcendence page equates higher layers to higher dimensions, so which is it?

Darksmash said:
A fictional world can be wrong based on our standards of coherency. If an author first says that character A is stronger than character B and then later in the story says character B is stronger than character A then the author and story are wrong.
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A fictional world can simply just not fit in our standards. The fictional world isn't wrong. Also character Character B can grow stronger than character A throughout the story, so it's not a contradiction.

Darksmash said:
You can't just dismiss analogies like that. Also worlds can theoretically exist inside particles. Anyway, the fact is that being able to interact with lower worlds isn't a requirement for transcendence.
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It's a bad analogy with all due respect. Worlds cannot theoretically exist inside particles, it's psuedo science. But let's say it's true. We wouldn't be able to interact with them, so how can you transcend something you have no means of affecting.

And the purpose of the thread isn't about asking what is the requirement, it's about questioning the requirement.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
A fictional world can simply just not fit in our standards. The fictional world isn't wrong. Also character Character B can grow stronger than character A throughout the story, so it's not a contradiction.
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I guess you can understand and enjoy incoherent statements and are not aware of the concept called "consistency" in fictional analysis.
Also the latter is irrelevant as it ignores the point of what I said.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
It's a bad analogy with all due respect. Worlds cannot theoretically exist inside particles, it's psuedo science.
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Who said they cannot exist inside particles? Denying it is actual pseudoscience. There's not enough information to say anything on the micro scale. Besides, even if it were physically impossible, it's a perfectly coherent logical scenario that can be used in an analogy. So this is a pretty bad argument.


Iamunanimousinthat said:
But let's say it's true. We wouldn't be able to interact with them, so how can you transcend something you have no means of affecting.
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Because we are bigger in size?
 
Darksmash said:
Because we are bigger in size?
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Transcendence doesn't mean bigger and has nothing to do with size. This is like saying humans transcend viruses.

ImmortalDread said:
“I am as large as the universe, but can't even destroy a bottle”
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More like, "since this character sees this world as fiction we are going to arbitrarily say they are infinitely larger than that world even though the story doesn't say anything of the such"
 
If humans do not transcend viruses, then I have nothing to say. I now need to prove that I can kill virus because my size is not enough.
 
I am serious. If my size can't even kill/effect an ant, because I apparently need “feat” for it according to your logic, then ya I am serious.
 
ImmortalDread said:
I am serious. If my size can't even kill/effect an ant, because I apparently need “feat” for it according to your logic, then ya I am serious.
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You are aware that virus's and ants can kill people?

Darksmash said:
We tier things based on size on a fundamental level. You gotta create a new tiering system if you wanna change that.
Click to expand...

Seeing something as fiction, isn't a size. We arbitrarily apply that size to those who can. I am questioning that. Not the entire tier system.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
You are aware that virus's and ants can kill people?
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Oh, yes def. Ant can kill me, and I can't kill them because I need feat.

Let's drop it. It became ridiculous right now. If you are now damn questioning my ability of destroying an ant, then I will actually request a closure of this thread since two staff members disagreed with it and tons of people here disagreed.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Seeing something as fiction, isn't a size. We arbitrarily apply that size to those who can. I am questioning that. Not the entire tier system.
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It's kinda assumed that the R>F layers that get used on the wiki have enough context to translate to size. For example the layers in Umineko explicitly work in the form of objects containing entire timelines of the lower layers and the upper layers also being compared to higher dimensions.

In a vacuum I do agree that R>F shouldn't be assumed to grant any kind of powers.
 
We never ever assume R>F alone to grant any kind of powers. Wat? The page literally deeply explained what qualifies and what not.
 
yeah, we don't automatically assume R-F grant tier, it is R>F Transcendences, if the context in question prove there is a reality that see something as fiction and transcended over it then it will grant tier
 
What are the arguments right now? And no, I slightly won't stop after the argument of “I need feat for killing ant since my size alone kinda is not enough to prove my potency while the logic goes against every physics standards it exists”.
 
Vietthai96 said:
yeah, we don't automatically assume R-F grant tier, it is R>F Transcendences, if the context in question prove there is a reality that see something as fiction and transcended over it then it will grant tier
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Sow what exactly constitutes as trasncending because the page says:

"In order to qualify they must view the world as a some actual form of 'fiction', i.e. to them what happens in the fiction is not real and of no physical consequence to their being and also otherwise is of no greater consequence to their being than an actual fictional character could reasonably be to a real life human."


ImmortalDread said:
What are the arguments right now? And no, I slightly won't stop after the argument of “I need feat for killing ant since my size alone kinda is not enough to prove my potency while the logic goes against every physics standards it exists”.
Click to expand...

You said that humans transcend viruses, I said they do not. Don't put words in my mouth. You're just derailing the conversation with these silly arguments. Unfollow the thread and move on if you don't want to participate.
 
Lormac_CC said:
Guess, to make thing easier to scale. The composite Hierarchy page already pointed out that R/F is higher than physical dimension
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I also want to call in question to that. The page says:

"Within such a cosmology, the difference between these layers/planes is actually greater than the difference between physical dimensions, due to each layer containing several dimensions within them. Otherwise, these can be known as metaphysical layers."

It's kind of weird to say that the layers are greater than the difference between physical dimensions. There is no quantitative or qualitive difference between dimensions. They simply are just different. Like how does one say there is a measurable difference between being able to go up and down vs. left to right. Its like apples and oranges.

And It can also just be that each layer has three dimensions, "length, width, height".

So it really is confusing how different pages contradict each other. I should probably add this.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
So it really is confusing how different pages contradict each other. I should probably add this.
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If you have problem with reality-fiction/the tiering system, then you should meet DT or Ultima because based on what I am seeing from this thread, you have problem with the entire tiering system
 
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If I understood correctly and without derailing/answering the other arguments that have been made, the problem seems to be a misunderstanding about the qualifications of a higher dimensional AP tier. The current qualifications treats Low 1-C AP as any character who can affect a structure that has 5 dimensions, no matter their size. In that case, someone who can affect a 5D structure which is infinite on all its axes has the same tier as someone who can affect a finite sized 5D structure. If we were to apply different tiers to the characters I used in my example, it would be too much confusion and unnecessary concerns since it can be determined case by case, for example when making versus threads.
 
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Maxeez said:
If I understood correctly and without derailing/answering the other arguments that have been made, the problem seems to be a misunderstanding about the qualifications of a higher dimensional AP tier. The current qualifications treats Low 1-C AP as any character who can affect a structure that has 5 dimensions, no matter their size. In that case, someone who can affect a 5D structure which is infinite on all its axes has the same tier as someone who can affect a finite sized 5D structure. If we were to apply different tiers to the characters I used in my example, it would be too much confusion and unnecessary concerns since it can be determined case by case, for example when making versus threads.
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The current tier list has it that in order to be Low 1-C in AP, you must be capable of affecting/creating/destroying an entire 5D space. Affecting any finite structure isn't enough.

However, under R>F, a character is able to get Low 1-C for simply existing in a layer where they view the lower layer as fictional. No feats of affecting/creating/destroying an entire 5D space, or even doing so to a finite object. They get the tier for simply just viewing that lower layer and it's characters as fiction. (granted there's no contradiction etc.)

It should be noticed, that while R>F is equated to 5D, they are treated differently. The Real layer is considered to be infinitely larger than the fictional layer. Higher dimensional objects are not considered infinitely larger than lower dimensional objects. Lower dimensional objects, and beings can exist alongside and interact with Higher dimensional objects and beings.

The purpose of this thread is to call out that the current R>F transcendence page doesn't align with the current tier page. Either, characters need to be able to affect the entire space, once R>F has been confirmed, or the tier page needs to be changed to reflect the current R>F standards.

Some arguments that I am making:

1. Assuming that fictional layer is infinitely smaller than the real layer, doesn't make sense and is arbitrary. Unless the story itself dictates these things, we should not apply it to all fiction. Fictional things do not have size to compare. Saying something real is infinitely bigger than something imaginary is like saying an Apple is infinitely more apple than an orange is an apple. It's just silly talk.

2. There are tons of examples of Lower Dimensional beings interacting with Higher Dimensional beings. These beings are Higher Dimensional because they can affect and entire Higher Dimensional space. When compared to a being that is simply Low 1-C for existing in a higher plane, these Higher Dimensional beings are infinitely stronger. So when lower dimensional beings interact with Higher Dimensional beings, these Higher Dimensional beings do not view the lower dimensional beings as fiction, but just as real as them. The only difference between them is that the HD beings are much stronger.

So I asked the question: In VS Battles, we pit two characters against each other. If we pit a Low 1-C via R>F (let's call them Character A for ease) against a 2-A character (Character B), under our standards Character A will see Character B as fiction. However, in Character B's story, Low 1-C characters interact with them and see them as real beings (weaker but still real). Why should Character A view Character B as fiction, when in character B's story, an infinitely more powerful Low 1-C sees them as real? We would be giving Character A an unearned ability and handicapping Character B.

3. People have mentioned that characters that gain higher tiers view R>F, would lose that tier if they are brought into the lower layers. Characters who are Low 1-C via affecting an entire 5D space, would be Low 1-C, in any layer they are in. And without R>F, a Low 1-C character could be be indistinguishable from a lower a tier. We can get things such as, "yes this character's best feat is destroying a tree, but that tree was infinitely larger than an infinite multiverse because they viewed this world like it was fiction".

And that's that in the nutshell.

If this goes through, then R>F will have some stricter standards and different guidelines. If it doesn't the, the tier page needs to changed to reflect this.
 
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