Some questions about Reality-Fiction Transcendence

[Ultima_Reality]

A while ago I was reading through our (relatively) recent page on Reality-Fiction Transcendence and this bit caught my eye:

A character that qualifies would usually then scale to one level of infinity higher than the totality of the cosmology they transcend. So for example, viewing a Low 2-C to 2-A cosmology as fiction would grant Low 1-C, doing so to a 6-Dimensional Low 1-C construct would scale the character to 1-C, doing so to a 10-Dimensional High 1-C structure would be the equivalent of an 11-D High 1-C and so on. However, depending on the details and depictions of the Reality-Fiction Transcendence, it can be more than a simple 'dimensional jump', for example because each reality-fiction "level" having been explained to contain more than one level of infinity (e.g. due to containing large higher-dimensional spaces or similar).

Made me wonder: Suppose we have a verse that doesn't equate reality-fiction layers to higher or lower dimensions. In this verse, each higher reality layer is from its own internal perspective a perfectly normal 3-dimensional reality (And this is truly the case. It's not explained away as "Just what lower beings can perceive" or anything like that). Does it make sense, then, to say that these layers each equal a single dimensional jump?

I ask because, if the verse doesn't say R>F layers and dimensions are the same, then that would mean even the lower dimensions of the higher world, and not just its 3-D space, would transcend the lower world, so a higher layer in that case would be worth 3 dimensional jumps (One for each dimensional subset of the higher world), and not just one. This in principle works downwards, too. So, if a verse has a baseline world, and then a lower layer which it sees as fiction, that lower layer would be 11-C and not 11-A, since it'd be below even the lower-dimensional subsets of the baseline world.

Of course, that'd work only for verses where each reality-fiction layer has its own dimensional spaces, but even those currently seem to have their layers equated to single dimensional jumps. Why is that, exactly? My first guess is that we'd require the verse to show lower-dimensional spaces actually exist, but it seems we've equated R>F Layers to singular dimensional jumps even in verses that actually do that (SCP as it was before all the Tier 0 upgrades comes to mind, as seen in the first key here).

---

My second question came up when I stumbled on this profile earlier today. It has this description in it:

Even dimensions are completely irrelevant to the characters that resides in the upper world stories. An example of this is how Wilson Taylor wrote the Tommy Taylor series where there are mages who can "add entire dimensions to physical space" and resides in "hyperplanes". The world of Tommy Taylor exist but it exists in a lower story and is nothing but fiction to the higher world where Wilson Taylor resides. This shows that the difference between the lower story and higher story is more than dimensions

The argument that the page seems to make is that, since beings in each layer have even shown to add dimensions in a way that doesn't reach into the higher world above them, this means that each story layer in the verse's hierarchy would surpass any (countable) amount of dimensions, and as such be in the 1-A range?

So my question here is: Do we allow reasoning of this sort? If an author character demonstrates the ability to add dimensions to their fictional work at will, but hasn't explicitly been shown adding infinitely many, do we assume they are above even infinitely many additions of dimensions, still?

 

[Deagonx]

Made me wonder: Suppose we have a verse that doesn't equate reality-fiction layers to higher or lower dimensions. In this verse, each higher reality layer is from its own internal perspective a perfectly normal 3-dimensional reality (And this is truly the case. It's not explained away as "Just what lower beings can perceive" or anything like that). Does it make sense, then, to say that these layers each equal a single dimensional jump?

I ask because, if the verse doesn't say R>F layers and dimensions are the same, then that would mean even the lower dimensions of the higher world, and not just its 3-D space, would transcend the lower world, so a higher layer in that case would be worth 3 dimensional jumps (One for each dimensional subset of the higher world), and not just one. This in principle works downwards, too. So, if a verse has a baseline world, and then a lower layer which it sees as fiction, that lower layer would be 11-C and not 11-A, since it'd be below even the lower-dimensional subsets of the baseline world.

IMO we would have to also have evidence that each spatial dimension is a higher infinity within the verse, and potentially even within each layer of fiction. Otherwise, I'd say it's just a single jump.

So my question here is: Do we allow reasoning of this sort? If an author character demonstrates the ability to add dimensions to their fictional work at will, but hasn't explicitly been shown adding infinitely many, do we assume they are above even infinitely many additions of dimensions, still?

We probably shouldn't assume it if we don't have a good reason to.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Your input is probably appreciated here. @DontTalkDT

 

[Metalballrun]

perfectly normal 3-dimensional reality

If a world/realm/dimension is treated as a normal, 3-dimensional world (like ours) then it should be treated like one. Regardless if this world conforms to the Reality/Fiction transcendence or not as a higher world. If the lower realities are also treated like a 3-dimensional world then that probably should be treated like one too, but it depends on the specifics of that particular story. Since there are verses out there that do not conform to the standards of the wiki.

Not sure how on-topic this comment is though or how helpful it is.

Take for example the W - Two Worlds Kdrama, where there is a real world and an alternate universe webtoon world. It's been 7 years since I've seen it, but the gist I remember is that both worlds are 3-dimensional worlds, but one is real and the other is fictional, and a world created and partially controlled by the author of the webtoon, who is the female lead's father. Characters are also able to jump from the webtoon world to the real world.
Though of course we can just say that a R>F transcendence is nonexistent in this case, somehow.

 

[DontTalkDT]

1. I'm fairly sure we did so in the past (IIRC DarkLK did so in his earlier Umineko drafts). As of recent times the view seems to go more towards treating things is 1 level, though, unless the verse specifies that it uses higher D = higher power logic.

2. I would say no. Go for how many dimensions they have shown to be able to add.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

1. I'm fairly sure we did so in the past (IIRC DarkLK did so in his earlier Umineko drafts). As of recent times the view seems to go more towards treating things is 1 level, though, unless the verse specifies that it uses higher D = higher power logic.

Hm. That seems to stem from our treatment of lower-dimensional beings being a bit more nebulous compared to higher-dimensional ones. For example like, if each reality-fiction layer has not only 3 dimensions but also a time axis, we would have to treat the difference between each layer to be equivalent to 2 dimensions, certainly.

2. I would say no. Go for how many dimensions they have shown to be able to add.

Any particular reason for that? It sounds a bit weird to me, seeing as a dimension is just a continuum of values representing a direction in space (i.e A number line). It's a 1-D thing. So, if Mr. Author Man is shown to be able to just add a dimension to his work with the stroke of a pen or something, what exactly prevents him from just... doing that again? Are we to assume that an attempt to do so wouldn't anything? His hand is magically stilled or something?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Hm. That seems to stem from our treatment of lower-dimensional beings being a bit more nebulous compared to higher-dimensional ones. For example like, if each reality-fiction layer has not only 3 dimensions but also a time axis, we would have to treat the difference between each layer to be equivalent to 2 dimensions, certainly.

Probably. Maybe. Matter of opinion, really.

Any particular reason for that? It sounds a bit weird to me, seeing as a dimension is just a continuum of values representing a direction in space (i.e A number line). It's a 1-D thing. So, if Mr. Author Man is shown to be able to just add a dimension to their work with the stroke of a pen or something, what exactly prevents him from just... doing that one more time?

You may as well ask "Why can the author not just write a Tier 0 cosmology? It's just more words." Because adding an extra dimension requires you to have the power to create uncountably infinite many spaces of the prior dimensionality at once (it's not just adding a 1D line, you need to add the points spanned by that line too or you reach no higher D level, but just a unification of, say, a 4-D submanifold and a 1-D submanifold which is still 4-D in terms of the Hausdorff dimension). We limit plot manip by power showings as much as any other ability. I.e. in vs-debate plot manipulators are assumed to not be capable of just writing anything regardless of the size or power necessary to create the corresponding object.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Probably. Maybe. Matter of opinion, really.

Eh. I suppose. Might tackle that question on a proper post later on. Same with the other one. Just probing for answers at the moment to see if it's a topic worth pursuing.

You may as well ask "Why can the author not just write a Tier 0 cosmology? It's just more words." Because adding an extra dimension requires you to have the power to create uncountably infinite many spaces of the prior dimensionality at once (it's not just adding a 1D line, you need to add the points spanned by that line too or you reach no higher D level, but just a unification of, say, a 4-D submanifold and a 1-D submanifold which is still 4-D in terms of the Hausdorff dimension). We limit plot manip by power showings as much as any other ability. I.e. in vs-debate plot manipulators are assumed to not be capable of just writing anything regardless of the size or power necessary to create the corresponding object.

I'm not sure if the example you give is an equivalent one. It's not like all extrapolations necessarily force us to the apply the highest possible level of them (e.g Not too long ago we set on a compromise that a statement like "Transcends all dimensions in mathematics" could be extrapolated to 1-A just fine, if the verse shows a system of higher dimensions, because of how finite dimensionality is inductive in nature, but not to High 1-A or 0, because you need evidence that the verse knows about things like infinite cardinality and how it relates to dimensions first)

Although, can you elaborate on the "you need to create all the points spanned by that line too"? You're probably referring to how talking about two parallel lines standing on a plane isn't really the same as talking about the multiplication between lines (R x R) that creates said plane, but I'd rather be sure I guess.

There's some other weirdness that makes me a bit uneasy with that answer. For example, if you're some 4-D creature looking down on a 2-D plane, and you use some weird ability to turn that plane into a 3-D space, then in a very real sense that object is now closer to you in size (Because now it'd require one multiplication to reach your dimensionality instead of two, and it now spans a larger subset of that dimensional space. Even if it's volume strictly speaking is still the same as it was before: 0). That doesn't really happen in this case. If an author character adds a dimension to the cosmology of their work, it's not like the work is now closer to them in size. It's still just as fictional as it was before. Or would we assume it does, indeed, happen?

 

[Gasper]

Leviathan of stories shouldn't even be High 1-A in the first place

 

[Ovy7]

Well, going by the new (?) standard of reaching 1A without infinite dimensions, then yes, the Hierarchy of Stories from UnWritten shouldn't be 1A+ but High 1B (meaning that The Leviathan would go from High 1A to 1A). The current tier is cause of mages adding dimensions, but there's no mention of how many they are able to add (and honestly I'm not even sure if there's a mention of the transcendent nature of these dimension).

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Made me wonder: Suppose we have a verse that doesn't equate reality-fiction layers to higher or lower dimensions. In this verse, each higher reality layer is from its own internal perspective a perfectly normal 3-dimensional reality (And this is truly the case. It's not explained away as "Just what lower beings can perceive" or anything like that). Does it make sense, then, to say that these layers each equal a single dimensional jump?

To be very honest, that just sounds like a regular multiverse. Why should each layer be given a dimensional jump?