A little Upgrade(Or A Huge One) For Pokémon God Tiers

[Faron25]

I believe it was accepted on a post this week or last that time and space aren't dualities in the same way cause and effect aren't.

In Pokémon, the duality is not between Space and Time, but instead between Space-Time, defined as "matter" (Dialga & Palkia), and anti-Space-Time, defined as "anti-matter" (Giratina).

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, GyroNutz.

 

[Sniper670]

Well, I've got some exam to take care of so I won't be here for a day or 2. I'll leave this here to cover for Aca 5, since it seems to be the only debatable thing so far.

The only thing that existed before anything was primordial void. Formless nothing devoid of order, law, concept or any kind of system

And so he appeared and created all there is to be created.

"he doesn't transcend the law of cause and effect".... And honestly, I don't see why that isn't the case

That's a law, which are the same laws he changed for the DW, because you know, the rules change over there. Which is also why even laws of physics does not apply......... logic in general

Even fodder Arceus can Overturn those laws, because y'know he is an Avatar of the Creator. A stand in

I'm saying this because I've seen Aca 5 on account of a character predating and transcending the laws of their world. Which is valid because laws of cause and effect have been referenced to as laws in the verse.

Arceus seems to be one of the best depictions of that.

The game master analogy is the best description of this

Bump. No comment on this?

 

[Sniper670]

Thank you for helping out, GyroNutz.

Well, it seems Acausality type 5 is what he disagrees on. I'm fine with conceding if that alone is going to stall the crt

 

[Antvasima]

So which staff members have accepted what here?

 

[Sniper670]

Gyro is fine with nep for Giratina and dualities for Pokéverse so Nep 2 for Arceus is fine. He disagrees with Aca 5 but hasn't given input after I clarified .I suspect he'd still not agree so eh......

Elizha is Fine with Aca 5 and Nep type 2 for Arceus. She did note my evidence for nep 1 and Aca 4 for Gira is the best one she's seen. She leans towards agreeing overall, but she says we'll probably need more input about that besides hers

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the summary.

@Elizhaa

What do you think about what GyroNutz said?

 

[Sniper670]

Bump.

Welp, this will take a while

 

[Ego]

You should add transformation for Arceus due to dittos existence and mew having it

 

[Sniper670]

Eh, I don't think Llama transforming into the opponent will make an interesting match.

Besides its covered by him having all the powers of the verse.

 

[Ego]

Eh, I don't think Llama transforming into the opponent will make an interesting match.

Besides its covered by him having all the powers of the verse.

If Arceus had full omnicience Arceus would transform into characters different from the opponent

Like if Arceus is against Madoka or something Arceus could transform into Dante to stomp the life out of her...am I being stupid right now?

Or because Arceus hax aren't 5D Arceus can transform into the 5D character to kill them

 

[Sniper670]

If you want to say stuff like this, do it in the Pokémon discussion thread

And no, we can't do that.

 

[Elizhaa]

The context seems to point out that Arceus transcends everything in the verse; so, it is likely that cause and effect are included. I would not be against possibly as stated in OP.

Finally a (open-ended) question: How do we treat Arceus having every Pokemon ability if they're paradoxical in nature/disadvantageous? For instance, Flare Boost and Water Veil, or Vital Spirit and Truant/Comatose. Contrary sparked my interest because there's numerous abilities and moves that would boost Arceus' stats that are now worse than useless if we consider this an active ability - coupled with Speed Boost and passive auras, Arceus would be passively making itself slower.

Maybe, treating them as active abilities for Arceus would work since Arceus isn't portrayed to use them.

 

[Zeifyl]

The context seems to point out that Arceus transcends everything in the verse; so, it is likely that cause and effect are included. I would not be against possibly as stated in OP.

Maybe, treating them as active abilities for Arceus would work since Arceus isn't portrayed to use them.

I mean... Doesn't llama resist paradoxes?

 

[Sniper670]

The context seems to point out that Arceus transcends everything in the verse; so, it is likely that cause and effect are included. I would not be against possibly as stated in OP.

Yes, possibly is fine

 

[Sniper670]

I mean... Doesn't llama resist paradoxes?

What do you mean?

 

[Zeifyl]

What do you mean?

I mean, wouldn't it find a way to getting boosted from being on fire, despite being unable to be on fire?

 

[Sniper670]

He should be able to, yes.

 

[Fixxed]

I think i neutral with NEP 2 and with acausality 5 for arceus

Can you provide proof arceus is nonexistance being??? Because exist before existance and nonexistance not make you nonexistance being, and you must nonexist to get NEP

C. Resistances to CM. The only concept that existed before he came was Nothingness........ And it turns out that even that nothing is also merely an aspect of his being (Giratina)

This for what if NEP get accepted??? This is his NEP' feats, so i think this is useless, he get NEP so he is get immunity, the highest degree of resistance

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Disagree with NEP type 2. Predating existence isn’t enough to get NEP, especially type 2. Also as Fixxed said, listing resistance to CM would be redundant if he had this ability. I am open to Arceus possibly getting type 5 for his true form. What you would need for type 5 is to show that they can’t be interacted with normally.

The rest of the stuff on here is fine.

 

[Sniper670]

I think i neutral with NEP 2 and with acausality 5 for arceus

Can you provide proof arceus is nonexistance being??? Because exist before existance and nonexistance not make you nonexistance being, and you must nonexist to get NEP

Transcends and exists beyond the duality of the Pokéverse, which represents Existence and Nonexistence respectively.

This for what if NEP get accepted??? This is his NEP' feats, so i think this is useless, he get NEP so he is get immunity, the highest degree of resistance

Rephrase

 

[Sniper670]

What you would need for type 5 is to show that they can’t be interacted with normally.

Well, he uses avatars so there's that.

The rest of the stuff on here is fine.

Sure

 

[Sniper670]

Do note that NEP 2 is transdual nonexistence. If he exists outside the binary of existence/Nonexistence , that's nep 2.

 

[Fixxed]

Do note that NEP 2 is transdual nonexistence. If he exists outside the binary of existence/Nonexistence , that's nep 2.

Ahh, not simple like that

Idealistic Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a sense further beyond conventional nonexistence. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence. Characters of this type often have some low degree of Transduality due to their lack of binary existence. Characters of this type have to behave at least as nonexistent as those with Material Nonexistence, but might display even further showings such as preceding or opposing existence.

 

[Greatsage13th]

agreed

 

[Zeifyl]

Disagree with NEP type 2. Predating existence isn’t enough to get NEP, especially type 2. Also as Fixxed said, listing resistance to CM would be redundant if he had this ability. I am open to Arceus possibly getting type 5 for his true form. What you would need for type 5 is to show that they can’t be interacted with normally.

The rest of the stuff on here is fine.

Predating, creating, transcending, and embodying the concepts of existence and nonexistence though? (Dialga+Palkia are, and embody, the physical aspects of existence, the Lake Trio are, and embody, the spiritual/mental aspects of reality, and Giratina is, and embodies, the concept of nonexistence. All six are mere aspects of Arceus).

 

[Sniper670]

Ahh, not simple like that

It's that simple

 

[Greatsage13th]

Predating, and creating, the concepts of existence and nonexistence though?

predating wouldn't mean much, at most supporting evidence.

 

[Greatsage13th]

It's that simple

not really, wukong and 2hou didn't have that from just being outside of these things.

 

[Sniper670]

not really, wukong and 2hou didn't have that from just being outside of these things.

Yes.. That's a Duality he's outside of

 

[Sniper670]

Predating, creating, transcending, and embodying the concepts of existence and nonexistence though? (Dialga+Palkia are, and embody, the concept of existence, and Giratina is, and embodies, the concept of nonexistence. All three are mere aspects of Arceus).

Existence and Nonexistence are seperate entities of which he's not

So yes, that's nep 2

 

[Greatsage13th]

Yes.. That's a Duality he's outside of

not enough, best you could have is resistance

 

[Zeifyl]

predating wouldn't mean much, at most supporting evidence.

Edited my post, since it didn't tell the full story.

 

[Sniper670]

not really, wukong and 2hou didn't have that from just being outside of these things.

Touhou for being outside of the boundary between existence and nonexistence

 

[Sniper670]

not enough, best you could have is resistance

No? Existence and Nonexistence is a Duality of seperate entities of which he's not.

Of course, if you want to prove that he's both existent, non existent and metaphysical at the same time, be my guest

 

[Greatsage13th]

No? Existence and Nonexistence is a Duality of seperate entities of which he's not.

Of course, if you want to prove that he's both existent, non existent and metaphysical at the same time, be my guest

You can exist outside of certain concepts yet still posses a concept of your own, which debunks idea of NEP type 2 but may be just type 1 transduality.

 

[Sniper670]

You can exist outside of certain concepts yet still posses a concept of your own, which debunks idea of NEP type 2 but may be just type 1 transduality.

Arceus does not posses a concept of his own. Time, space, matter, spirit, Nonexistence are seperate aspects. Of which he's independent of and transcends. Which is why he's soulless and has BDE2

He's incomprehensible to everyone in the multiverse and in those categories which is why he uses Avatars

 

[Fixxed]

Touhou for being outside of the boundary between existence and nonexistence

NEP touhou is from lack of name (concept), they gods is nonexistance being by default

 

[Sniper670]

NEP touhou is from lack of name (concept), they gods is nonexistance being by default

That's nep 1.

 

[Greatsage13th]

That's nep 1.

Type 2.

Arceus does not posses a concept of his own. Time, space, matter, spirit, Nonexistence are seperate aspects. Of which he's independent of and transcends. Which is why he's soulless and has BDE2

He's incomprehensible to everyone in the multiverse and in those categories which is why he uses Avatars

But the concept of "Arceus" is still there.